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 11/21/2006 10:47:47 PM · #1
I searched the forums and find where this has been approached but not clarified.

Question #1: For basic or advanced, can I use one RAW photo and process it multiple times, use tone mapping and then submit it to a challenge without getting a DQ. (specifically asking about basic rules)

Question #2: For basic or advanced, can I use multiple exposure of the same scene and then submit to a challenge without being DQ'd.

I have seen multiple entries using HDR and tone mapping but just need the clarification for me when I submit and when I vote.

Thanks

Jim

11/21/2006 10:54:53 PM · #2
Question 1: In Basic, No. In Advanced, Yes.

Question 2: No, not in either rule set.
 11/21/2006 11:06:39 PM · #3
wasnt tone mapping itself, legal in basic?

Message edited by author 2006-11-21 23:10:11.
 11/21/2006 11:14:34 PM · #4
Originally posted by arsenal:
wasnt tone mapping itself, legal in basic?


Yes, but not combining multiple conversions of a RAW file.
FWIW, you *could* convert a RAW file to a single 16 bit/channel image, then tone map, then convert to 8 bits/channel. That is Basic-legal, and should, in theory be able to replicate multiple conversions, though possibly with more effort.
 11/21/2006 11:37:35 PM · #5
Is tone mapping the same as "gradient map" in Photoshop (and is it still legal)?
 11/22/2006 02:11:39 PM · #6
Photomatrix lets you do tone mapping with one RAW image.
 11/22/2006 03:16:40 PM · #7
Originally posted by kirbic:
Question 1: In Basic, No. In Advanced, Yes.

Question 2: No, not in either rule set.

Hahahhaha! You're kidding me!?!?! I thought for sure I saw a post saying HDR was legal in Basic. Isn't that a kick in the head because my crappy Perspective entry that I threw together just for fun last night uses HDR.... hahahhahaa, there goes my perfect record.
:-(
 11/22/2006 03:19:25 PM · #8
So what shall I do?
 11/22/2006 03:21:19 PM · #9
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
So what shall I do?


You could enter it anyway and then get DQ. ?
 11/22/2006 03:24:19 PM · #10
Originally posted by mist:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
So what shall I do?


You could enter it anyway and then get DQ. ?

It's already entered.

Perspective IV

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Updated: 11/22/06 03:24 pm

11/22/2006 03:24:51 PM · #11
I'm a cheater, I'm a cheater, neener neener neener.
 11/22/2006 03:27:25 PM · #12
Originally posted by hankk:
Photomatrix lets you do tone mapping with one RAW image.


Yes that's legal in basic and advance editing. They are referring to bracketed shots and multiple RAW conversions that produce multiple pixel layers which are illegal in basic but not advance.

Message edited by author 2006-11-22 15:28:05.
 11/22/2006 03:36:22 PM · #13
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I'm a cheater, I'm a cheater, neener neener neener.


How shocking.
 11/22/2006 03:49:55 PM · #14
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by kirbic:
Question 1: In Basic, No. In Advanced, Yes.

Question 2: No, not in either rule set.

Hahahhaha! You're kidding me!?!?! I thought for sure I saw a post saying HDR was legal in Basic. Isn't that a kick in the head because my crappy Perspective entry that I threw together just for fun last night uses HDR.... hahahhahaa, there goes my perfect record.
:-(


There are 3 levels of this of this "HDR" thing we've been going crazy with.

1. "True" HDRI, which uses three or more different exposures from camera to create a High Dynamic Range composite image which is then tone mapped to render it for the Low Dynamic Range environment of screen and print. This is not legal under either DPC ruleset.

2. "Mock" HDRI, which uses several different "exposures" created from the same RAW frame to create a HDR image which is then tone-mapped as above. This is legal in DPC advanced editing ruleset, but NOT in basic.

3. Straight tone mapping of a single RAW capture that has been converted to 16-bit TIFF and opened in an HDRI editor. This approach is analogous to using the PS CS/CS2 shadow/highlight feature, and some RAW processors also have both shadow and highlight recovery features embedded; Bibble Light, for one, has these. Now, using the "conventional" tools in PS or the RAW processor, in conjunction with levels and curves applied globally, you can accomplish most of what tone mapping does. Extreme tone mapping of a single exposure seems to push it past where you can go with the conventional approaches, but it's not that far past if it comes to that. Photomatix Pro's tone mapping is just simpler to use, for me, than the Bibble shadow and highlight recovery stuff, and I don't have CS/CS2, so I can't use that. PS7 has the precursor of shadow/highlight, called "contrast masking", but we can't use that in basic because it involves layers and layer modes.

Bottom line: at this time, tone mapping from a single frame/exposure is legal in basic and advanced editing both.

That's the way I understand it, anyway... You should be OK, Slippy, and if you go down I'm going down with you in this challenge :-)

R.
 11/22/2006 03:58:31 PM · #15
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

3. Straight tone mapping of a single RAW capture that has been converted to 16-bit TIFF and opened in an HDRI editor. This approach is analogous to using the PS CS/CS2 shadow/highlight feature, and some RAW processors also have both shadow and highlight recovery features embedded; Bibble Light, for one, has these.


Curious, how's the noise with using Bibble Light's shadow/highilights feature compared to Photomatix? I've noticed Photomaix can generate a lot of noise when using one raw file. CS2's shadow/highlights on the other hand is a lot better in terms of noise at least from my experience.
 11/22/2006 03:59:53 PM · #16
Oh well bear, what I did was your case #2, Mock HDR, the same as I did for my Front Street entry, which was validated for advanced.
 11/22/2006 04:06:45 PM · #17
Oh well. The file is on my laptop, which I left at home today. I guess I'll send in for validation and waste somebody's time.
 11/22/2006 04:08:24 PM · #18
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Oh well bear, what I did was your case #2, Mock HDR, the same as I did for my Front Street entry, which was validated for advanced.


But, but you have two ribbons? Surely the SC will have to consider that. :P

Tough break dude.
11/22/2006 04:16:01 PM · #19
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Oh well bear, what I did was your case #2, Mock HDR, the same as I did for my Front Street entry, which was validated for advanced.


But, but you have two ribbons? Surely the SC will have to consider that. :P

Tough break dude.

I'm thinking of slipping a $20 in with my file for validation. ;-)
 11/22/2006 04:22:27 PM · #20
Kinda back to the age old question. Basic is not really basic anymore. Depending on what camera you own, what software you process it with, that's the difference. With someone who is very profficient with PS CS2 a "basic" photo can be manipulated to almost the same level as an advanced photo entry. Basic really needs to go back to maybe seven "basic" processing steps. No third party proceesing programs. Contrast, saturation, size, sharp, rotate, brightness, shadow & highlight and nothing else. This way almost every processing program has close to the same capabilities and now the "basic" photographs are what is being judged instead of whoever has the most advanced camera and processing program.

Shame ... Shame ... slippy , or should we now call you Mr Mock HDR. Wow a new term for a confusing set of rules.

I agree, somewhere in the last couple of weeks it was said that what you did was legal. I guess that's where the SC's should be the only one answering the questions and the members should only be asking questions and not answering them. Far too much confusion.
 11/22/2006 04:41:44 PM · #21
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Oh well bear, what I did was your case #2, Mock HDR, the same as I did for my Front Street entry, which was validated for advanced.


But, but you have two ribbons? Surely the SC will have to consider that. :P

Tough break dude.

I'm thinking of slipping a $20 in with my file for validation. ;-)


Is this the Photographic Superhero equivilent of Kryptonite?


11/22/2006 05:06:56 PM · #22
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
Kinda back to the age old question. Basic is not really basic anymore. Depending on what camera you own, what software you process it with, that's the difference. With someone who is very profficient with PS CS2 a "basic" photo can be manipulated to almost the same level as an advanced photo entry. Basic really needs to go back to maybe seven "basic" processing steps. No third party proceesing programs. Contrast, saturation, size, sharp, rotate, brightness, shadow & highlight and nothing else. This way almost every processing program has close to the same capabilities and now the "basic" photographs are what is being judged instead of whoever has the most advanced camera and processing program.

Shame ... Shame ... slippy , or should we now call you Mr Mock HDR. Wow a new term for a confusing set of rules.

I agree, somewhere in the last couple of weeks it was said that what you did was legal. I guess that's where the SC's should be the only one answering the questions and the members should only be asking questions and not answering them. Far too much confusion.


I've been following all the HDRI threads religiously, and I'm not aware that SC ever said sandwiching of multiple variations of a single RAW file is legal in basic. It can't possibly be, because basic does not allow any layering that contains pixels. SC, however, HAS said that tone mapping from a single exposure/file is legal in basic, and it pretty much HAS to be unless they decide to make the shadow/highlight feature of CS/CS2 illegal. Both tone mapping and S/H allow the use of local contrast adjustment in processing. No selections need to be made, the adjustment is made globally. The ONLY reason I got into tone mapping was that SC told me I couldn't use contrast masking in basic, and I felt myself at a disadvantage compared to CS/CS2 people, who have the S/H adjustment to play with.

R.
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