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11/06/2006 09:15:14 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by amber:
So the pathologist got it wrong then?
Were the side effects of the Vioxx drug in the PDR? |
Not necessarily. I was more taking issue with the site basically claiming its widespread knowledge that Ritalin causes cardiomyopathy and, therefore, whomever wrote for it was either ignorant or worse. However, the fact that I couldn't find ANY information talking about cardiomyopathy and ritalin makes me think the pathologist either didn't write that (the website misinterpeted or just lied) or, yes, the pathologist got it wrong.
Believe it or not...the product insert for Vioxx talked about cardiovascular problems. I'll copy it below (although it's got lots of medical jargon). The problem with Vioxx wasn't that cardiovascular effects were not known, but how common they were...
From the Vioxx product insert:
The information below should be taken into consideration and caution should be exercised whenVIOXX is used in patients with a medical history of ischemic heart disease.In VIGOR, a study in 8076 patients (mean age 58; VIOXX n=4047, naproxen n=4029) with a medianduration of exposure of 9 months, the risk of developing a serious cardiovascular thrombotic event wassignificantly higher in patients treated with VIOXX 50 mg once daily (n=45) as compared to patientstreated with naproxen 500 mg twice daily (n=19). In VIGOR, mortality due to cardiovascular thromboticevents (7 vs 6, VIOXX vs naproxen, respectively) was similar between the treatment groups. (SeeCLINICAL STUDIES, Special Studies, VIGOR, Other Safety Findings: Cardiovascular Safety.) In aplacebo-controlled database derived from 2 studies with a total of 2142 elderly patients (mean age 75;VIOXX n=1067, placebo n=1075) with a median duration of exposure of approximately 14 months, thenumber of patients with serious cardiovascular thrombotic events was 21 vs 35 for patients treated withVIOXX 25 mg once daily versus placebo, respectively. In these same 2 placebo-controlled studies,mortality due to cardiovascular thrombotic events was 8 vs 3 for VIOXX versus placebo, respectively. Thesignificance of the cardiovascular findings from these 3 studies (VIGOR and 2 placebo-controlled studies)is unknown. Prospective studies specifically designed to compare the incidence of serious CV events inpatients taking VIOXX versus NSAID comparators or placebo have not been performed.
Message edited by author 2006-11-06 21:15:37.
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11/06/2006 09:26:16 PM · #27 |
| Wasn't there a recent drug that was pulled; and it was discovered that the researchers had conflict of interest? I think I heard this story on NPR? Was that Vioxx? |
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11/06/2006 09:34:28 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Wasn't there a recent drug that was pulled; and it was discovered that the researchers had conflict of interest? I think I heard this story on NPR? Was that Vioxx? |
Basically, although other COX2 inhibitors were also pulled from the market. |
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11/06/2006 09:38:03 PM · #29 |
Believe it or not...the product insert for Vioxx talked about cardiovascular problems. I'll copy it below (although it's got lots of medical jargon). The problem with Vioxx wasn't that cardiovascular effects were not known, but how common they were...
I personally think it was known how common it was before it went for FDA approval..I think the makers used semantics and data-cut off dates to 'hide' what their data was showing them. I personally think the company - when the real data was shown to them - did a risk assessment like any major company that had invested millions in a product that would give them a fantastic profit, and decided a few law suits (should the truth ever be found) was financially a better option than withdrawing a drug that could make them millions. That's how big business works and that's how employees at the top act. They took a chance, made a bet and the consumers paid the price. I don't expect you to agree...I won't produce reams and reams of evidence. But to Lay people like myself the whole thing STINKS to high heaven. |
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11/06/2006 09:50:34 PM · #30 |
| Naw, actually I sorta agree with you Amber. I'm not fan of Big Pharma either. Was it blatant "screw them, let's make money"? I'm not really sure, but I have little doubt that in this case it appears things were "tweaked" and "massaged" until everybody's conscious was appeased...and then they went out and made money. (BTW, those drugs were worth Billions, not millions.) |
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11/06/2006 09:53:19 PM · #31 |
Death by Ritalin 2
As of May, 1996, there were 13 cases of liver failure leading to death or liver transplant from Cylert (pemoline), touted to be the "safest," of the stimulants.
Of 2,993 adverse reaction (AR) reports concerning "Ritalin" or "methylpenidate" listed by the FDA̢۪s Division of Pharmacovigilance and Epidemiology (DPE), from 1990 to 1997, there were 160 deaths and 569 hospitalizations--36 of them life-threatening. One hundred twentysix (126) were cardiovascular occurrences, and 949 central or peripheral nervous system occurrences. There were 6 cases of "cardiomyopathy," 12 of "arrhythmia," 7 of "bradycardia," (slow pulse), 5 of "bundle branch block," (impairment of conduction apparatus of the heart), 4 of "EKG abnormality," 5 "extrasystole," (heart rhythm abnormalities), 3 "heart arrest," 2 heart failure, right," 10 "hypotension," (low BP), 1 "myocardial infarction," 15 "tachycardia" (rapid pulse).
While many of Ritalin̢۪s cardiac side effects might be due to its action on the sympathetic nervous system, it may bind to and alter cellular architecture, leading to symptoms and signs that are secondary to actual structural damage.
Ritalin is known to cause cardiac arrhythmia, tachycardia and hypertension. Ritalin and other amphetamines can interfere with the body phospholipid (complex fat) chemistry causing the accumulation of abnormal membranes visible with an electron microscope. Such abnormalities were seen in an adult treated with Ritalin for 4 ½ years. A heart muscle biopsy was obtained during coronary bypass surgery. Fischer (1972) concluded: "Although the patient was exposed to a variety of different drugs, we feel the methylphenindate (Ritalin) should be considered as the incriminating factor since this agent is amphetamine-related."
Henderson & Fischer (1994) next exposed experimental mice and rats to MP (Ritalin), and found identical membrane proliferation to that in the patient described by Fischer (1972). Moreover, they found that "The MP (Ritalin) doses used in the experimental rodents fell within the range of therapeutic dosage prescribed for patients with attention deficit disorders (ADD/ADHD)."
Other such molecules include fenfluramine (Pondimin)—the ‘fen’ of ‘fen-phen’—the weight reduction compound found to cause heart valve defects, leading to it’s being withdrawn from the market. There have been reports of reversible cardiomyopathy with methamphetamine (Desoxyn, Gradumet); of cardiomyopathy with dextro-amphetamine (Dexedrine) ); of left ventricular failure following a single, i.v. dose of amphetamine, and of sudden reversible cardiomyopathy with fenfluramine (Pondimin) and mazindol (a weight loss drug).
In The Pathology of Drug Abuse, Karch writes: "Amphetamine’s adverse effects on the heart are well established â€Â¦(sharing) common mechanisms with cocaine toxicityâ€Â¦cardiomyopathy seems to be a complication of amphetamine abuse more often than cocaine abuseâ€Â¦The clinical history in most of these cases is consistent with arrhythmic sudden death (as in Stephanie Hall). Reports of amphetamine-related sudden death were first published shortly after amphetamine became commercially available" (late 1930’s, about the same time Bradley discovered the paradoxical, calming effect of amphetamines that has lead to todays Ritalin epidemic).â€Â¦Stimulant-related cardiomyopathy has occurred in association with amphetamine, methamphetamineâ€Â¦and methylphenidate (Ritalin)â€Â¦In all cases there was acute onset of heart failure associated with decreased cardiac outputâ€Â¦"
Based on the above, which I found quite easily, I am confused as to why you state that you couldn't find ANY information talking about cardiomyopathy and ritalin makes me think the pathologist either didn't write that (the website misinterpeted or just lied) or, yes, the pathologist got it wrong.. Is Ritalin not an amphetamine? Is long term use of Amphetamine associated with cardiomyopathy? |
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11/06/2006 09:59:07 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Naw, actually I sorta agree with you Amber. I'm not fan of Big Pharma either. Was it blatant "screw them, let's make money"? I'm not really sure, but I have little doubt that in this case it appears things were "tweaked" and "massaged" until everybody's conscious was appeased...and then they went out and made money. (BTW, those drugs were worth Billions, not millions.) |
I do kinda wonder what doseages where given (actual not perscribed), and if any other drugs where in interaction. I think the drug companies they kinda do have produce their next break-through quick, with not 'enough' testing. But then again, how the heck are they going to know the interaction on every human. Heck the best smallpox vaccine still is rated at percentage fatality rate..
Message edited by author 2006-11-06 22:13:02. |
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11/06/2006 10:14:27 PM · #33 |
Conflicts of interest on COX-2 Panel
"The Food and Drug Administration on February 16-18, 2005 held an advisory committee meeting to discuss the cardiovascular risk posed by painkillers known as Cox-2 inhibitors, which include Celebrex, Bextra and Vioxx. The former two drugs are manufactured by Pfizer. The latter is manufactured by Merck. Novartis also has a Cox-2 inhibitor in its pipeline. At the end of the hearing, the FDA advisory panel voted to keep all three on the market, though with heightened warnings about the dangers posed by this class of drugs.
At the request of the New York Times, the Center for Science in the Public Interest evaluated the 32 scientific experts chosen by the FDA to evaluate these drugs. The CSPI research uncovered affiliations between 10 of the scientists that served on the committee and the three manufacturers of Cox-2 inhibitors. This would appear to be a direct violation of the Federal Advisory Committee Act, which prohibits scientists with direct conflicts of interest from serving on panels offering advise to federal regulatory agencies. Another 17 scientists had other ties to drug manufacturers, though not the three with products under consideration at the meeting.
According to a New York Times analysis of the votes, the advisory committee would have voted against Bextra and Vioxx staying on the market had scientists with conflicts of interest been excluded from the vote.
Here is the CSPI analysis of the FDA Advisory Panel:
CSPI found ten (10) physician/researchers with direct ties to Pfizer, Merck or Novartis (including G.D. Searle and Pharmacia, which are now part of Pfizer)..." |
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11/06/2006 10:20:20 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by amber:
Based on the above, which I found quite easily, I am confused as to why you state that you couldn't find ANY information talking about cardiomyopathy and ritalin makes me think the pathologist either didn't write that (the website misinterpeted or just lied) or, yes, the pathologist got it wrong.. Is Ritalin not an amphetamine? Is long term use of Amphetamine associated with cardiomyopathy? |
I went to the medical literature database (Ovid in this case) and searched for Ritalin (or the generic name methylphenidate) and cardiomyopathy. It returned 2 articles. One was titled "Myocardial injury associated with polysubstance abuse". That would hardly be helpful since were are talking about people who take multiple drugs. The other was "Cardiac and vascular involvement in drug abuse", however it was in a radiology journal and was not helpful.
The Division of Pharmacovigilance and Epidemiology collects reports of possible adverse events from drugs. Just because an event is reported does not mean there was a causal relationship. Events are reported in case there is a cause but further investigaion is required. Had the FDA found a connection, they would have likely provided a warning on the product insert or in the PDR (which is basically the same as the product insert). So the fact that there were 6 reported "cardiomyopathies" is not a smoking gun in itself. It would be the findings of the further investigation.
Let's see. Further down it talks about ritalin and "cardiac arrhythmia, tachycardia, hypertension". I don't disagree with this at all. But this is different from cardiomyopathy and they do not cause a "420 gram heart". Well, I suppose severe hypertension could have, but you don't just keel over from severe hypertension without other symptoms.
The biopsy stuff is a bit vague to me. It could indicate cardiomyopathy there, but they don't really go into it. It could also be changes consistent with ischemia (like dead tissue). They are just too vague.
The next paragraph is talking about other amphetamines. While there could be a class effect, it isn't assumed. I also wouldn't have found that searching for "ritalin". They are also talking about sudden death (read "arrhythmia") and heart failure. Neither is cardiomyopathy which is an abnormal thickening of the heart muscle (leading to the big heart).
Just letting you know how I came to the conclusion that I couldn't find anything... |
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11/06/2006 10:27:13 PM · #35 |
[quote=greatandsmall] Conflicts of interest on COX-2 Panel
Seems that site that is posted on has some conflicts of interests. according to here
Message edited by author 2006-11-06 22:30:33. |
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11/06/2006 10:30:13 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
[quote=greatandsmall] Conflicts of interest on COX-2 Panel
Seems that site that is posted on has some conflicts of interests. //www.cspiscam.com/index.cfm |
Good call on the questionable link. I should have checked where I thought I heard it (NPR) in the first place.
NPR coverage of the story.
Of course, some might not consider NPR a viable source either; but I'm too tired to search harder:)
Message edited by author 2006-11-06 22:36:56. |
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11/06/2006 10:31:58 PM · #37 |
The next paragraph is talking about other amphetamines. While there could be a class effect, it isn't assumed. I also wouldn't have found that searching for "ritalin". They are also talking about sudden death (read "arrhythmia") and heart failure. Neither is cardiomyopathy which is an abnormal thickening of the heart muscle (leading to the big heart).
Just letting you know how I came to the conclusion that I couldn't find anything...
I understand;)
Why is Ritalin not described as an amphetamine in the insert?
And would there be a marked difference with regards to cardiomyopathy, in a developing child with continual daily use of and increasing doses of amphetamine and an adult? IOW, could the age of the user possibly cause the thickening, which was found in the first case I posted?
Message edited by author 2006-11-06 22:33:57. |
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11/06/2006 10:41:09 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by amber:
Why is Ritalin not described as an amphetamine in the insert?
And would there be a marked difference with regards to cardiomyopathy, in a developing child with continual daily use of and increasing doses of amphetamine and an adult? IOW, could the age of the user possibly cause the thickening, which was found in the first case I posted? |
I didn't know this myself, but I guess methylphenidate is related to amphetamine but isn't considered the same thing. The insert describes it as a "CNS stimulant".
I don't know the answer to the second question. Kids can get cardiomyopathy for sure. When you hear stories of high school sports stars falling over suddenly dead it is more often than not a cardiomyopathy. But whether kids are more susceptible or not is a question that I doubt has been answered. First you have to answer whether amphetamine causes cardiomyopathy and the above information didn't speak much to it. It was mostly, like I posted before, talking about other cardiac effects. |
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11/06/2006 10:44:28 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by amber:
In The Pathology of Drug Abuse, Karch writes: "Amphetamine’s adverse effects on the heart are well established â€Â¦(sharing) common mechanisms with cocaine toxicityâ€Â¦cardiomyopathy seems to be a complication of amphetamine abuse more often than cocaine abuseâ€Â¦The clinical history in most of these cases is consistent with arrhythmic sudden death (as in Stephanie Hall). Reports of amphetamine-related sudden death were first published shortly after amphetamine became commercially available" (late 1930’s, about the same time Bradley discovered the paradoxical, calming effect of amphetamines that has lead to todays Ritalin epidemic).â€Â¦Stimulant-related cardiomyopathy has occurred in association with amphetamine, methamphetamineâ€Â¦and methylphenidate (Ritalin)â€Â¦In all cases there was acute onset of heart failure associated with decreased cardiac outputâ€Â¦" |
I know Dr. Karch -- I'll try and get references to more information tomorrow. Here's his website. |
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11/06/2006 10:48:04 PM · #40 |
Thanks General;)
I also found this:
Chronic oral amphetamine abuse can cause a chronic
cardiomyopathy; an acute cardiomyopathy has also been described (Call et al., 1982).
Link
I'd say a child taking Amphetamines everyday over a long period with rising doses could be classed as chronic.
Message edited by author 2006-11-06 22:49:36. |
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11/06/2006 10:51:51 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Originally posted by MQuinn:
[quote=greatandsmall] Conflicts of interest on COX-2 Panel
Seems that site that is posted on has some conflicts of interests. //www.cspiscam.com/index.cfm |
Good call on the questionable link. I should have checked where I thought I heard it (NPR) in the first place.
NPR coverage of the story.
Of course, some might not consider NPR a viable source either; but I'm too tired to search harder:) |
NPR is fine, but look at the facts at the end... from the Lancet..Look at the Controversial Articles |
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11/07/2006 12:52:07 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
It is also my opinion that school shootings, the destruction caused on 9/11, the crimes committed at Gitmo and secret CIA prisons are also very effective uses of Trauma Based Mind Control. |
Are there any problems in the world that you don't blame Bush and his skull and bones comrades for? I ask this since apparently it might be the shorter list.
Honestly, I've tried to believe in this whole conspiracy thing everything from Bush Sr's hand in the JFK assassination to the 9/11 inside job and a lot of it sounds quite convincing and I myself don't totally dismiss the plausibility of it, however there is one small problem and that is the ommission of evidence and proof. We live in a society that is SUPPOSE to hold in high regard the burden of proof yet we only champion that ideal when it's some poor powerless guy accused of something. That's probably because we are brainwashed as a society to believe that if you're rich you're guilty no matter what. If you're found innocent you bought your way out of it. Such is the case here and conspiracy theorist play this card to a tee. Oh he's a rich white guy with lots of power so of course he can do all of these things therefore it must be true. So nobody ever gets around to explaining the details of how something like 9/11 can get done from a practical standpoint. If bombs were planted in the WTC how exactly does one accomplish that while remaining undetected and then afterwards secure the placements of those bombs until the day they are used and those people that planted them who are they? Are they bought? Is everyone in this elaborate scheme bought and why is it everyone can remain silent yet they can't shut up people like Richard Clarke or Joseph Wilson and the like? Or are they bought also and are playing "roles"? My instincts tell me to pull of 9/11 one would need the support of a lot of people just to get the bombs in place not to mention damage control afterwards so all of the firefighters working ground zero immediately afterwards would also have to be on the payroll otherwise you'd risk one of them finding bomb fragments or some other evidence associated with demolitions and so on and so forth.
Of course there are countless other things that make me tend to believe this is all b.s. such as the evidence presented in Loose Change, which is just a microcosm of how all of these conspiracy theorist present their "proof". For example, they point to "explosions" visible as the building is falling down yet in every demolition I've seen the bombs go off first THEN the building falls like a house of cards not as the building is falling.
Anyway, I'm bored so I posted.
Message edited by author 2006-11-07 01:02:27. |
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11/07/2006 01:04:50 AM · #43 |
How could explosives be planted without detection?
Guess whose company was in charge of security at the WTC?
Marvin Bush, brother of GW. Interestingly his company was also in charge of security at United Airlines and American Airlines..Kinda makes you go hmmmm.
Many of the floors were unoccupied. Witnesses afterwards reported drilling and heavy equipment on these 'empty' floors in the weeks leading up to 911.
One weekend prior to 911, the entire computer network in the buildings was rewired.
In the weeks leading up to 911 the bomb sniffer dogs, used by security were pulled and never returned.
Many, many fireman reported explosions that day.
That's just off the top of my head. I'm in a rush off to lunch;)
Message edited by author 2006-11-08 10:20:15. |
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11/07/2006 01:09:53 AM · #44 |
| Whoa, so the thread has moved to the idea that GWB is controlling the masses by destroying the WTC? You guys are way, waaaaay out there. No wonder you guys tend to latch onto these quack sites with all the conspiracy of ritalin and such... |
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11/07/2006 01:22:48 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Whoa, so the thread has moved to the idea that GWB is controlling the masses by destroying the WTC? You guys are way, waaaaay out there. No wonder you guys tend to latch onto these quack sites with all the conspiracy of ritalin and such... |
Wow, that was a bit disengenious Dr.
Yanko, a sceptic, asked about 911, I simply replied.
I don't 'latch on' to anything. And nothing you said about Ritalin convinced me that is safe and effective for 5- 7 million children a year to take because schools want them more malleable. Is Dr Karch a quack? DO you have a website showing your credentials?
Why is it you need to make personal attacks?
Message edited by author 2006-11-07 01:33:28. |
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11/07/2006 01:29:09 AM · #46 |
Don't look if you really don't want to know
Better minds than mine are looking into 911. Enjoy;)
Message edited by author 2006-11-07 01:31:19. |
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11/07/2006 01:33:26 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Whoa, so the thread has moved to the idea that GWB is controlling the masses by destroying the WTC? |
Whether he destroyed it or merely failed to prevent it is irrelevant to the fact that he has used its destruction to control public opinion, lead us into an unnecessary war, drive the country to the brink of bankruptcy, and essentially eviscerate the Constitution as we know it. |
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11/07/2006 01:36:04 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
he has used its destruction to control public opinion |
I fully agree with this part of the statement |
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11/07/2006 01:46:31 AM · #49 |
Interesting perspective and read. |
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11/07/2006 01:53:27 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by amber:
Why is it you need to make personal attacks? |
Well, that last reply of mine was perhaps a bit out of line. It really did seem to me you guys were all of a sudden getting into some whacked conspiracy stuff.
I'm not attacking anybody personally, but I'm sure you have already figured out that quasiscience and medical quackery get me a bit hot under the collar. Anybody has the right to post such stuff and even to believe it, but I can certainly come along and try to debunk the worst of it.
So it's not a personal attack at you Amber, I'm sure you are a nice gal, but wherever there are homeopathy champions and vaccination foes, I'll be there!
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