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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> Introducing the New Rules
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AuthorThread
 11/05/2006 08:22:36 PM · #26
read The DQ Process – A Voter’s Guide.

needs a linky :0)
 11/05/2006 08:26:01 PM · #27
Originally posted by elemess:
it would help to provide a link to the "The DQ Process – A Voter’s Guide" we're supposed to read.


I'm sure it's just an oversight.
 11/05/2006 08:29:32 PM · #28
Question on this rule in the new advanced ruleset.

You May: overlay two copies of the same original file and process them differently to enhance dynamic range.

Is there now a limit (previously unlimited) on combining multiple versions of the same RAW file?
 11/05/2006 08:29:37 PM · #29
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Shannon, can you and other SC basically tell us if there has been a quantum change in the cloning rules?


Personally, I don't think it would be a problem then or now. The biggest edit is obviously the sandwich board, but its removal probably wouldn't change how people perceive the photo. To me, it's a minor distraction intruding into the edge of the "real" photo.
 11/05/2006 08:31:35 PM · #30
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Is there now a limit (previously unlimited) on combining multiple versions of the same RAW file?


No there isn't (as long as you're working from the same original).
 11/05/2006 08:31:50 PM · #31
In Basic Rules:

use filters or stand-alone utilities designed to preserve image integrity (such as Neat Image, Unsharp Mask, Dust & Scratches, and color correction tools).

So since Alien Skins Exposure mimicks the response of certain films, it would be fine to use that? I see that as preserving image integrity.

nlk color fx pro does a lot of "traditional" filters, ie ND Grad, Skylight filter, pro contrast. I could argue those also preserve image integrity.

Message edited by author 2006-11-05 20:32:49.
 11/05/2006 08:31:52 PM · #32
I read the new rules, and I wonder about a couple of things, maybe someone can help me out.

basic and advanced:

"use the same original image in more than one challenge."
Even if you crop it out completely differently?

basic:
"distort or stretch your image in any way."
Does that mean I can't fix barrle distrotion?

"use only Adjustment Layers (or their equivalent). An Adjustment Layer is a special type of layer containing no image data that lets you experiment with color and tonal adjustments without permanently modifying the pixels. Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode.
"

Does that mean you can use masks on the adjustment layer now?

That said, contratulations! These rules look great, and they are easy to read!


11/05/2006 08:33:32 PM · #33
Jason, like Scalvert said, I don't think it would be a problem either. The overall description of the picture does not change, and on a day like today, if you hadn't pointed out what had been cloned, I probably would not have noticed. Well, I might have noticed the sandwich board but not the car.

Now, if you had cloned out the car, mailboxes, sign, and lights on the wall, we might have had issues to deal with.
 11/05/2006 08:37:21 PM · #34
Originally posted by terje:

"use only Adjustment Layers (or their equivalent). An Adjustment Layer is a special type of layer containing no image data that lets you experiment with color and tonal adjustments without permanently modifying the pixels. Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode.
"

Does that mean you can use masks on the adjustment layer now?


mask are selection so no
 11/05/2006 08:37:27 PM · #35
Originally posted by terje:
"use the same original image in more than one challenge."
Even if you crop it out completely differently?


Correct. You can only use an original in one challenge, no matter how different it may appear (this was also true in past rules).

Originally posted by terje:
basic:
"distort or stretch your image in any way."
Does that mean I can't fix barrel distrotion?


Yes, that's what it means, but we've had some discussion on that point and it could change in the future.

Originally posted by terje:
Does that mean you can use masks on the adjustment layer now?


Not in Basic. "You may not... use the marquee, lasso, or similar tool to select a portion of your image for any reason other than cropping or creating a border."
 11/05/2006 08:40:26 PM · #36
Thanks Shannon!

Only wish the current basic challenges had these rules. :-)

edit: beer-typ0

Message edited by author 2006-11-05 20:40:44.
 11/05/2006 08:41:41 PM · #37
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
since Alien Skins Exposure mimicks the response of certain films, it would be fine to use that? I see that as preserving image integrity.

nlk color fx pro does a lot of "traditional" filters, ie ND Grad, Skylight filter, pro contrast. I could argue those also preserve image integrity.


I haven't checked out those filters, but your assessment sounds reasonable. Note that any "actions" that include illegal steps (such as adding layers with image data on them) would also be illegal even if it's a single button or filter applied to the whole image.
 11/05/2006 08:53:22 PM · #38
Sooooooooooooooooo you're saying ....

If last Thanksgiving I took a shot of my Aunt Betty and cloned out Betty's seriously ugly moles, the small UFO in the sky behind her and changed her eye color to majenta AND used Neat Image until Aunt Betty looked like molten pudding (much like she normally looks, btw), AND sharpened Aunt Betty's image until her spiky hair scratched my monitor, AND grunged Aunt Betty until she looks like a homeless cat; and then entered that into an Advanced editing challenge.....
... that my DQ would be for the date violation? ;)
 11/05/2006 08:59:43 PM · #39
Originally posted by idnic:
my DQ would be for the date violation? ;)


At least until there's a rule against bad taste. ;-P
 11/05/2006 09:00:20 PM · #40
Good news to digest! The fact that one can address specs and hot pixels in b.e. will only add to the quality of the images in these challenges. Good work and congratulations on the super great effort. These changes are welcome.
 11/05/2006 09:07:09 PM · #41
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
Good news to digest! The fact that one can address specs and hot pixels in b.e. will only add to the quality of the images in these challenges. Good work and congratulations on the super great effort. These changes are welcome.


Definitely... no more trying to blur the blue channel to get rid of that unsightly sensor dust.
 11/05/2006 09:12:31 PM · #42
Great I really like these changes :) Nice move.
 11/05/2006 09:13:48 PM · #43
The one change that makes our lives so much easier
is the one about cloning out sensor dust and bunnies.

You've just gotten home after taking the perfect shot
which can't be recreated, and find a big ol' dust spot.

This is one of those not-so-little rule changes that makes life
so much easier.

Thank you.
 11/05/2006 09:22:37 PM · #44
I had hoped to see a revision of the following:
You May Not: discuss any entry in the forums while voting is in progress.

I have seen several instances where individuals have gone to great length to seek input and approval from their peers relative to a particular photograph, and then enter same in a challenge.

Call me old fashioned if you will, but I still adhere to the old tenets that one's actions should withstand the closest of scrutiny, and that actions such as these should perhaps be addressed in our regulations.

I also applaud the revisionist for their monumental undertaking in this instance, but would caution that this is not to be construed as a panacea. From the very brief parsing I have managed to date, I am of the opinion that there are many areas which will warrant further review as some of the meanings and intents seen ambiguous at first glance.

Ray

Message edited by author 2006-11-05 21:23:44.
 11/05/2006 09:28:04 PM · #45
Sorry for my probably stupid question but I dont understand the "You may not create new features or obscure significant parts of your original capture." I ask because I often use black backgrounds and usually in the original they become dark gray so I use levels to darken to black...And sometimes I also burn some parts I want to obscure... Is doing this illegal now?
11/05/2006 09:35:34 PM · #46
Basic

saturate, desaturate or change the colors of your entry, but no selections are allowed.

Just a nit-pick, but color is perceived as hue, saturation and luminosity (tone). I think it would be less likely to confuse if stated explicitly for each of the three perceptions of color.

add a border to the outside edge of your entry. Your border must be distinct and clearly recognizable as a border.

Is the 'outside edge of your entry' to be taken literally? For instance, are lines that follow at a set distance from the outside physical edge be permitted?

include existing images or artwork as part of your composition as long as the entry does not appear to consist entirely of a pre-existing photograph in order to circumvent date or editing rules or fool the voters into thinking you actually captured the original photograph.

A bit of clarification please. Using scenic backdrops has been a staple of studio portrait photography for a very long time. The goal of which is to create an image that gives the illusion the photographer captured the image of the person in the environment the backdrop represents. This would on face value seem to violate this rule by presenting a final image with the intention of fooling the viewer into thinking they photographer took the image of the scene portrayed in the backdrop.

I feel this is intended only to prevent someone from using the camera as a photocopier, but a bit of clarification is in order.

use ANY editing tool to create new image area, objects or features (such as lens flare or motion) that didn't already exist in your original capture.

Just create? Could you discuss the reasoning behind not including 'change, move or remove'?

---

Advanced
(That are not already discussed above for basic)

You may not create new features or obscure significant parts of your original capture.

What is a 'feature' or 'significant part' of the original capture?

If left undefined, it will not remain so for long. Each DQ and validation will serve to define it in a haphazard and random manner.

In the few short years I've been here I have seen the SC move the rules from being based on one undefined term to another. When I started it was 'photographic integrity', which, when the haphazard and random definition of precedence became unwieldy and contradictory it was replaced (I don't remember if immediately or not) by 'major elements'. This new term then proceeded to be defined in the same random manner until it too has become unusable.

Define it before it is put to the test and the definition stays consistent to the purpose the term was included in the rules -- allow it to be defined by happenstance and how long will it be before you need to repeat the last 8 months worth of work?

use ANY editing tool to move, remove or duplicate any element of your photograph that would change a typical viewer’s description of the photograph (aside from color or crop), even if the tool is otherwise legal, and regardless of whether you intended the change when the photograph was taken.

Same problem as before -- in a multi-cultural, multi-background and multi-interest community such as DPC, exactly what is a 'typical' viewer?

What one person considers typical another will consider extraordinary. As the SC are the only ones who have a say in what a typical viewer is, this leaves the photographers guessing what the SC as a group invision a typical viewer to be. Subjective rules do not communicate objectively very well at all, and this is far too subjective. Rewording it in objective terms would cause great deal less confusion and hard feelings as we move forward.

---

Voting Guidelines

rate entries on a scale of 1 to 10. A score of 1 is a “bad” photo, and a score of 10 is a “good” photo

Good move -- I never liked when people limited their voting to a smaller range.

---

All told, from fist view the Basic rules, with a few minor clarifications, look good. The Advanced rules however, suffer from the same major problems as the previous version did (and the version before it).

Thanks for all the effort
David
 11/05/2006 10:24:16 PM · #47
Originally posted by David.C:
color is perceived as hue, saturation and luminosity (tone). I think it would be less likely to confuse if stated explicitly for each of the three perceptions of color.


Any of those perceptions would fit, so regardless of your personal definition it still works. Thus, there is no confusion and we can just keep it simple.

Originally posted by David.C:
Is the 'outside edge of your entry' to be taken literally? For instance, are lines that follow at a set distance from the outside physical edge be permitted?


Yes, that's fine. An inline still runs around the outide edge. The rule is meant to prohibit dividing your entry into triptychs, quadrants, etc. If you want a border, just use a simple border.

Originally posted by David.C:
Using scenic backdrops has been a staple of studio portrait photography for a very long time. The goal of which is to create an image that gives the illusion the photographer captured the image of the person in the environment the backdrop represents. This would on face value seem to violate this rule by presenting a final image with the intention of fooling the viewer into thinking they photographer took the image of the scene portrayed in the backdrop.


A backdrop with other objects isn't ENTIRELY artwork, is it? If the additional parts are insignificant, then it will still appear to be entirely artwork, but otherwise there's no problem. The words 'entirely' and 'appear' are the keys here. If the voters are primarily reacting to the existing artwork as if it was something you set up and shot, then you're asking for trouble (if in doubt, we can look at the comments when deciding). If they're reacting to the overall concept (artwork + added elements) then you're fine.

Originally posted by David.C:
Could you discuss the reasoning behind not including 'change, move or remove'?


This is Basic. Pretty hard to change, move or remove objects when you can't make selections. ;-)

---

Originally posted by David.C:
What is a 'feature' or 'significant part' of the original capture?


The editing rules are for touchup and enhancement only. Removing prominent objects or adding things like motion or lens flare where there wasn't any before will get you into trouble. The rule is a matter of common sense. If we compare the original to your entry and say, "Hey, where'd the big honkin' [removed object] go?!?" or "Hey, that Ferrari wasn't motion-panned at all!" then it probably wasn't a minor distraction.

Originally posted by David.C:
in a multi-cultural, multi-background and multi-interest community such as DPC, exactly what is a 'typical' viewer?


Again, common sense is our guide. There is no way to objectively define the important parts of every photo. An elephant in an empty field is obvious, but a tiny fly on the nose of an animal looking cross-eyed at it is prominent, too. If you can think of better working definition, we'd love to hear it.

Message edited by author 2006-11-05 22:30:22.
 11/05/2006 10:29:11 PM · #48
Originally posted by Gaby_G:
...I often use black backgrounds and usually in the original they become dark gray so I use levels to darken to black...And sometimes I also burn some parts I want to obscure... Is doing this illegal now?


No, it's fine. A mostly featureless background has nothing significant to remove, and color shifts are legal. You'll only run into problems if you have a detailed background and make it blank. Removing the "context" or "environment" of a photo (if it had one) is definitely a significant part of your capture.
 11/05/2006 10:31:41 PM · #49
keep asking questions and maybe scalvert won't have time to take any pictures. ask alot. ask for several weeks. :)
 11/05/2006 10:49:26 PM · #50
I read the new rules. Other than 'hdr' processing and being able to clone out dust in basic editing, I don't see anything new here. ?

I do have one question, the wording about changing a viewers perception of the image - does this apply to things like taking a shot during the day and processing it so it appears to be taken at night? Altering reality as it were.

Thanks
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