Well, crap - DPChallenge Forums

10/27/2006 09:02:15 PM · #51

Issue #1 (ie reason I took it in the first time) - started car. Immediately the hand brake and ABS lights were lit, and it dinged at me about those two. This car has had lots of electrical issues, so I figured this was just a new feature. So I head out. The odometer display starts flickering rapidly. A few minutes later the battery light came on. Not too long after that, and a few more ding dings, the car shut itself off, while I was still in drive and driving. If I recall, I cranked it and it started right up, and no more warning lights or dings. All fine.

Take it to the dealer. They find things to fix that don't remotely sound related to the issue outlined above, but hey, they're the experts, right?

I go pick it up at the end of the second day. Drive to the base. Park. Drive from the office to the bowling alley, park. Drive back to the office, drop off a friend, drive to a store. Park. Shop for about 15 minutes. Drive home. Do things at home for about half an hour, then go back out to get in the car and go to another store - nothing, nada, zip, zilch. No odometer display when I open the door, no turnover, no nothing. Then.... the CD player (which is hosed to begin with) starts flickering its lights and trying to eject the permanently embedded CD. Key is NOT in the ignition at this point. Finally after a minute or two, that stops.

Wait for the tow guy. Open the door after about an hour - odometer display comes on (normal when you open the car door). Stick key in, turn, nada, all lights now back out again.

Tow guy hooks up car, yanks once to get it in place, odometer light comes back on. He tries turning it over - all lights cease, no joy.

Sits at dealer overnight. Service writer opens door in AM, odometer and panel lights come on, he inserts key, turns, everything dies, nothing even resembling an attempt to start. Two hours later, mechanic goes out, and the b!tch starts first try.

Battery is 11 months old - previous battery threw up all over itself and the inside of the car. You'd think (if you were a reasonable person) that the FIRST thing they'd do is change the battery - to date, it hasn't been touched or even inspected (at least it hadn't as of last night.)

Don't know if any of this helps, but I welcome opinions and suggestions!

10/27/2006 09:27:31 PM · #52

Nice! Wish all my customers went into that detail of a disciption.
So what did they replace at the dealer the first time? I assume you still have a copy of that work order. (Want to see if they found any codes with the Body Contol Module) This is the factory CD player?

10/27/2006 09:33:16 PM · #53

And I wish you were working on my car. I go into all this detail with the service manager who then condenses it into about six words on the worksheet that goes to the mechanic. Sigh.

First go round - updated something in the PCM. Found a leak in the coolant housing (totally unrelated to the "car turns itself off" issue, I'm quite sure) so they replaced that (and I'd love to know where that is, since I can't see anything new in the engine at all). Found something that was corroded and cleaned it. That would be it thus far.

Today all they did was see if it would start, and when it did, they just left it there. And yes, factory CD, though I should add that it's been through four (4) factory radios due to "electrical problems". This fourth one has lasted the longest. The two are separate units in that the CD changer is separate, and it's the thing that was going spastic.

10/27/2006 10:00:40 PM · #54

4 radios ouch! Ok Im gunna get a little techinical here, but you will learn how your car works alot better:

Your Sebring uses a PCI data bus (Programmable Communication Interface multiplex system). What this mean is there is a cental computer the BCM (Body Control Module), and several other modules (PCM,Instument panel, Transmission Control Module, Radio, ABS, Airbag, Climate control, etc) all linked up to this databus all communicating together. Well heres the kicker, if one of these modules gets unruly it can shut down the data bus, and no module can talk, does some crazy stuff.

So I want you to ask them did they for check for any BCM codes. And that your radio has been acting funky (its on the Data bus) and has been replaced 4 times already.

10/27/2006 10:04:23 PM · #55

I'll ask 'em that tomorrow when they call. I think the kicker is they can't tell anything unless it actually acts up. But I could have them replace the PCI databus (which I suspect is not cheap) and see if that cures what ails the thing. I really do appreciate the input!!

Brad

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

10/27/2006 10:18:13 PM · #56

Yikes.
Let's see... 2001 Sebring JXi convertible 2.5L DOHC, assuming A/Trans too.

Battery in compartment ahead of left front wheel. Connections not notorious there for problems, unless in a salted winter roads state. Couple connections under the hood, used to charge the battery and/or jump start if needed, again, not a pattern failure for connections there. These do have junction connectors #3 and #4 located under the air filter housing, in front of the powertrain control module (computer) and do have issues with corrosion. These vehicles are also prone to theft-deterrant issues, ranging from bad door switches to the keys tehmselves (start, run a few seconds then quit). These cars alos have issues with draining the battery overnight once in a while, and most often is associated with the small map lights in the rearview mirror, the transmission controller not timing out after shut off, and the trunk light staying on. From what I read, you have a connection issue with the starter though? Turn the key and nothing sometimes? Key on, engine off, brake pedal on, move shifter from Park to Drive and back a few times and retry.

How many miles on it? If a battery "puked all over itself", I assume you mean boiled over? If so, the alternator is overcharging, but may not necessarily be an alternotor, as the field is controlled by the vehicle's computer, making it charge or not charge. The battery is the heart of teh charging system though, and just because it's 11 monts old menas absolutely nothing. It needs to be properly checked, water level topped off, slow charged and load tested with about 200 amps for 15 seconds, never dropping under 10 volts. If it fails, slow charge again, and retest. If it fails, replace it, making sure it's a maintenance-free battery, as it is in the non-accessible cubbyhole.

What else?

10/27/2006 10:21:24 PM · #57

Originally posted by Melethia:

It would not be the PCI data bus itself causing the problems, more a module on it acting up.

This was kinda a first year of this generation of sebring a new control system was changed in. Chrysler seems to use the convertable sebring as a test bed for the new body control systems.

Brad

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

10/27/2006 10:24:34 PM · #58

Originally posted by Melethia:

First go round - updated something in the PCM. Found a leak in the coolant housing (totally unrelated to the "car turns itself off" issue, I'm quite sure) so they replaced that (and I'd love to know where that is, since I can't see anything new in the engine at all). Found something that was corroded and cleaned it. That would be it thus far.

Reflashing the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) is like updating a camera's firmware. Not a cure-all, but certainly will correct issues that have been noted across teh countr and fixes done in software. Good starting point, especially on an intermitent. Leak in the coolant housing - common problem - it's on the housing the radiator cap attache sto and have seen it before. Will affect things when a cooling system can't hold pressure, which in turn affects other things in a chain reaction. Corrosion - maybe as I stated above - connection in the junction box under the air filter housing.

Originally posted by Melethia:

Today all they did was see if it would start, and when it did, they just left it there. And yes, factory CD, though I should add that it's been through four (4) factory radios due to "electrical problems". This fourth one has lasted the longest. The two are separate units in that the CD changer is separate, and it's the thing that was going spastic.

Spastic can happen when it doesn't get enough voltage, maybe being related to the battery problems as you mentioned.

As Matt mentioned above, the data bus isn't a thing to replace, nor is it a component - it's basically the same as a network cable, running through the vehicle, allowing all the different modules to communicate via digital code.

First things that need to be very carefully checked are the battery AND the alternator. If the alternator was overcharging and voltage went too high, it will shut the vehicle down.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 22:29:46.

10/27/2006 10:31:28 PM · #59

My mom has a 1996 (I had one of those, too) and hers has issues with the maplight/battery drain thing. Mine (the 2001) hasn't had that problem, but it does have an intermittent problem with the power locks - sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Usually if they don't I can hit the switch on the key fob or the door about ten times and eventually it works again.

This one has 55,000 miles on it at present. Not been in a salted area (other than it started it's life in Tampa, Florida and lived there for about two years).

I tend to think it's one of the computer controller thingies - and somehow that's affecting power draw, in turn screwing up the battery. Can they run diagnostics individually on the computer controller thingies? If so, will it only be useful if the thingie is screwing up at the time of the test? (I suspect the answer to the latter is "yes".)

And finally, how do we tie all this back to photography? :-) You guys rock, by the way.

Oh, and I was thinking alternator as well, but it's in front of the battery process-wise, right? So if it's screwing up, what would cause the battery to suddenly drain (or so it seems) after the car has been shut down for about twenty minutes, or to suddenly come back to life, as it did today at the shop?

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 22:32:51.

Brad

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

10/27/2006 10:39:45 PM · #60

Originally posted by Melethia:

Red flags here - anti-theft system may be having a problem, but can be a nightmare to duplicate. I do believe the dealer can disable it temporarily (or permanently in software) and may be something they shoud be trying. A reprogram of the keys & PCM is tricky and may also be the answer. Do you have a second set of keys? It may be as simple as that. The keys actually do communicate with the vehicle and can be finicky.

Originally posted by Melethia:

I tend to think it's one of the computer controller thingies - and somehow that's affecting power draw, in turn screwing up the battery. Can they run diagnostics individually on the computer controller thingies? If so, will it only be useful if the thingie is screwing up at the time of the test? (I suspect the answer to the latter is "yes".)

The various modules are kinda not testable per say, but all vehicle functions they control can be tested and run through it, in effect testing them.

Originally posted by Melethia:

And finally, how do we tie all this back to photography? :-)

Well, I took my Free Study shot driving one of these. Does that count?
lol

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 22:44:07.

10/27/2006 10:58:38 PM · #61

Originally posted by Melethia:

Oh, and I was thinking alternator as well, but it's in front of the battery process-wise, right? So if it's screwing up, what would cause the battery to suddenly drain (or so it seems) after the car has been shut down for about twenty minutes, or to suddenly come back to life, as it did today at the shop?

Like Brad said, the alternator is controled by the PCM, via direct wire (no data bus) to contol the voltage the Alternator produces. The Alternator just runs the electrical load and replenshes the battery to top-off voltage wise.

As for the Photography, I finally got my favorite shot from out the front door of my shop of a double rainbow blown up to 18x24 and got a nice frame at Micheals. I put it up st the end of waiting room of my shop, so if you stand at the door you can compair the landscape. Kinda fun when customers come in and ask where I got that picture:)
Im eyeing up a new lens a 50-200, I played with a 35-100mm F2 OMG I want... but dang $2200 ouch!

10/27/2006 11:09:08 PM · #62

OK, I may tell them to disable the anti-theft (don't care to have it anyway), and to check the wiring to and from the alternator - maybe even replace it.

And it was Michaels I was on my way to when it wouldn't start the other night - still haven't made it there. I've printed my "Heat" entry at 8x8 which is an odd size and want it matted and framed for my brother for Christmas. It'll also be signed, and numbered - 1/1. :-)

10/27/2006 11:22:04 PM · #63

Originally posted by Melethia:

OK, I may tell them to disable the anti-theft (don't care to have it anyway)

I wouldn't advise this, its a poor legal decision, I doubt the dealer would do this either. If the vehicle is ever stolen, even after you sell it you and the dealership can be held responsible.

Edit: BTW I do like your heat entry:)

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 23:27:53.

10/27/2006 11:50:07 PM · #64

Well maybe just disable it long enough to see if that solves the problem? If it does, then replace the offending parts.

And the heat entry was a fun one to shoot - kind of a last minute idea. It remains my brother's favorite picture of mine.