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10/26/2006 08:36:58 PM · #101 |
Guys, I'm backing up and restating that there are more decent shots than I originally thought. I've gone back and upped quite a few and lowered some, but have given only one 10 and 2 9's. Some 8's and quite a few 7's, but that still leaves tons of 6's, 5's, etc.
But man, that 10 is killer.
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10/27/2006 12:04:48 AM · #102 |
I have gotten some votes on mine, but no one has commented. I also didn't realize that you couldn't view the photographers comments until after the challenge apparently. For a first entry it wasn't too bad, and I even went in and voted on about 25% of the entries, there were just so many.
It was pretty disappointing to see camera shake, and completely focused images in the mix though. There definitely were some nice things, and i gave out a few high marks.
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10/27/2006 12:33:39 AM · #103 |
| I don't know. I've been looking at some more of the entries, and there are some really, really good ones. The only problem is, now I'm getting all sorts of ideas to copy :) |
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10/27/2006 01:42:55 AM · #104 |
Originally posted by ursula:
I don't know. I've been looking at some more of the entries, and there are some really, really good ones. The only problem is, now I'm getting all sorts of ideas to copy :) |
That's a problem?
I'd be honored if you copied my idea. And won a ribbon. :)
Loved your comment, too - you're the first person to interact with it the way I'd hoped people would. :)
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10/27/2006 03:04:32 AM · #105 |
Originally posted by ursula:
I don't know. I've been looking at some more of the entries, and there are some really, really good ones. The only problem is, now I'm getting all sorts of ideas to copy :) |
Feel free to copy mine - BTW, thanks for the (vote censored), just PM me for the setup after the challenge ;-)
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10/27/2006 03:22:36 AM · #106 |
Ursula, you definately don't need to copy ideas, as you have the "best" ones all sewn up..... But is saying that, it would be really nice to know which ones you do like, as we would all love to have your seal of approval, thats for sure.....
Originally posted by ursula:
I don't know. I've been looking at some more of the entries, and there are some really, really good ones. The only problem is, now I'm getting all sorts of ideas to copy :) |
Message edited by author 2006-10-27 09:59:05.
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10/27/2006 05:39:57 AM · #107 |
Originally posted by Jutilda:
Guys, I'm backing up and restating that there are more decent shots than I originally thought. I've gone back and upped quite a few and lowered some, but have given only one 10 and 2 9's. Some 8's and quite a few 7's, but that still leaves tons of 6's, 5's, etc.
But man, that 10 is killer. |
A little over a day and a half later and 100+ posts in this thread - the damage (negative tone) has already been set. :(
Glad you saw things a little differently in the long run. Perhaps you might reconsider next time before pulling the trigger so fast with starting a thread like this.
OP for those joining late:
Originally posted by Jutilda:
Maybe this should be in the rant category, but I am soooo disappointed in the bokeh challenge. I've voted on about 1/3 of them and not come close to seeing any 9's or 10's. Many don't have bokeh at all. What gives? |
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10/27/2006 08:24:06 AM · #108 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Jutilda:
Guys, I'm backing up and restating that there are more decent shots than I originally thought. |
A little over a day and a half later and 100+ posts in this thread - the damage (negative tone) has already been set. :( |
This discussion did not affect scores in a negative way. Jutilda only verbalized what most people were already thinking.
What most people think is that there should be some distinction between bokeh and out-of-focus areas in an image when there really isn't. The guy that coined the term for its use in photography even says so.
What happens is that DPCers, as a group, are fault finders. They look for reasons to score images low. And when you couple it with the "I can't score an image higher than 5 if it doesn't meet my narrow minded vision of what meets the challenge" then you get low scores.
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10/27/2006 08:25:35 AM · #109 |
This discussion actually got me out commenting more.
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10/27/2006 08:34:39 AM · #110 |
Originally posted by timfythetoo:
This discussion actually got me out commenting more. |
There you go... this discussion has had a positive effect!
Further, discussions like this help to educate us about specialized photographic terms like bokeh and that is a very good thing.
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10/27/2006 08:55:34 AM · #111 |
| Just finished voting and bumping. There were several exceptional images where the bokeh enhanced the image. I ended up giving out four 10's on four very different images and different type of bokehs. I've never given out four 10's before. Nice work by those who knew how to enhance their image with bokeh. |
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10/27/2006 08:59:24 AM · #112 |
Originally posted by atupdate:
Just finished voting and bumping. There were several exceptional images where the bokeh enhanced the image. I ended up giving out four 10's on four very different images and different type of bokehs. I've never given out four 10's before. Nice work by those who knew how to enhance their image with bokeh. |
Interesting... I've given out 18 10s and I've only voted on 30% of the entries. Apparently I'm more easily impressed. :)
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10/27/2006 09:05:05 AM · #113 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by timfythetoo:
This discussion actually got me out commenting more. |
There you go... this discussion has had a positive effect! |
It also helped me understand why my score is so disappointing despite 11 very positive comments. I don't know if the discussion has any real impact on voting, but at least I have some idea of what the masses are thinking so I don't make the same mistake next time. I don't think the challenge results or discussion afterwards would provide the same insight. |
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10/27/2006 09:29:56 AM · #114 |
No, I'm not as liberal in scoring as you are but I do try to give out as many high scores as possible. I reserve the 10's for my favorites, which seldom make the top 10 of a challenge. I apologize to those I have cursed by awarding a 10.
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by atupdate:
Just finished voting and bumping. There were several exceptional images where the bokeh enhanced the image. I ended up giving out four 10's on four very different images and different type of bokehs. I've never given out four 10's before. Nice work by those who knew how to enhance their image with bokeh. |
Interesting... I've given out 18 10s and I've only voted on 30% of the entries. Apparently I'm more easily impressed. :) |
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10/27/2006 10:15:54 AM · #115 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
... at least I have some idea of what the masses are thinking so I don't make the same mistake next time. ... |
Please, enlighten us. What conclusion or concensus have you come to from the wide range of banter of the "masses"?
Let's just call these interesting excerpts:
"1 good pic out of 20 this is not cool cos I dont want to be mean but in these cases.. I have to..."
"I have never seen so many DNMC ever! I don't think people know what Bokeh is..."
"I have to admit that after looking through the entries, I'm a little put off by it. There really isn't anything that jumps out at me and there are many that DNMC."
"I also did not submit a pic of a flower or of an insect because I knew there would be 100s of them. But I feel I'm losing points for doing that very thing."
"...I've seen a number of DNMC's that were blatant (IMO) attempts at just entering a photo and had nothing to do with Bokeh. ..."
"Dont think you folks should worry about your photo having those circles or not. A great OOF background should be good enough. ..."
"It's an out of focus challenge..."
"It was pretty disappointing to see camera shake, and completely focused images..."
"we should call this a DOF challenge and not bokeh..."
"No excuses, it's simply missing in most images in the challenge. It strikes me that some members need remedial courses on this subject."
"...I must admit, I was very bored going though the bokeh photographs. A few were very good and original, but why so many macro shots of flowers? Can't people be more creative? ..."
"...I've seen a number of DNMC's that were blatant (IMO) attempts at just entering a photo and had nothing to do with Bokeh. ..."
"...I found about 20 that, to me, are DNMC (that's only about 4%). BUT, I found another 90 that grossly ignore all sorts of other photographic considerations....and about 100 that miss the mark on technicals and using bokeh to "enhance" the subject ..."
"... I am soooo disappointed in the bokeh challenge. I've voted on about 1/3 of them and not come close to seeing any 9's or 10's. Many don't have bokeh at all. ..."
Positive
"... I find the negative comments helpful. I wish the site would explain what bokeh is for beginners this would helpful. I truely want to learn...thank you all for the comments. ..."
"I've seen some very good shots and given out some 8's and 9's. ..."
"Granted, I've only looked at a few entries, but so far I must have hit only the good ones, because I thought they were pretty good. ..."
"I don't know. I've been looking at some more of the entries, and there are some really, really good ones. ..."
One of the best comments in this thread:
Originally posted by rinac:
...In this challenge, I'm not looking for how many freakin blades the lens has, I couldn't give two hoots whether or not there are gaussian circles or pretty polygons. If there are and I'm moved by the way they enhance the image overall, I'll vote favourably. If they're absent and I'm still moved by the effect the oof areas have on the image, again, I'll vote favourably. ... |
My favorite post in this thread:
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
This is the kinda crap that influences voting, not outtakes. All this does is make people second-guess the score they gave and possibly go back and change it. As far as I'm concerned, there shouldn't be any discussion on challenges during voting. Reserve your opinions for a photos comment box and after the voting period ends. All voters should be capable of reading the challenge description and deciding if an entry meets the requirements based on their interpretation of the description. |
Perhaps I should just take the easy road and join the masses. You know it has to be much more fun to make comments like "I don't get all of these setup shots in bokeh - don't people know that natural outdoor settings are the best for good bokeh?" Nah...I'd rather say that I've enjoyed viewing the various takes/interpretations on bokeh submitted by the DPC community and I can't wait to see how the ribbon winners line up! Good luck to everyone in the challenge. |
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10/27/2006 10:18:57 AM · #116 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
What happens is that DPCers, as a group, are fault finders. They look for reasons to score images low. And when you couple it with the "I can't score an image higher than 5 if it doesn't meet my narrow minded vision of what meets the challenge" then you get low scores. |
I look for reasons to LIKE an image, so I'm not particularly a fault finder, but as time goes on, I am looking for more and more ways to be WOWED.
I didn't go back and up scores out of guilt, but just thought and rethough and looked and relooked and realized that sometimes the first impression is not ALWAYS the right one.
Message edited by scalvert - Fixed quote. |
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10/27/2006 10:44:45 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by scalvert:
... at least I have some idea of what the masses are thinking so I don't make the same mistake next time. ... |
Please, enlighten us. What conclusion or concensus have you come to from the wide range of banter of the "masses"? |
Simple. As you've so eloquently demonstrated with your quotes, I've learned that opinions of what meets the challenge are considerably more varied in this topic than usual. Some people don't necessarily regard the quality of a fuzzy area to be bokeh just because it's out of focus. Some are looking for circles of confusion. Some people are apparently voting down for foreground bokeh since the description mentions background. On top of that, there are differing opinions of what GOOD bokeh is, and differing opinions on whether the subject is enhanced by it, etc.. This helps me understand why I've got 10+ votes below 4 on an entry that's got bokeh in spades, and I can plan for that type of audience next time. ;-)
As an aside, it seems that people generally believe they know what bokeh is, and assume other definitions are flawed. Discussion is not likely to influence voting among folks who think they're right- especially since most of the people posting here were already debating the issue in a pre-challenge thread. There might be a handful who gain a better understanding of the term through discussion, and personally I'd rather have people voting with as much understanding as possible.
Message edited by author 2006-10-27 10:53:37. |
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10/27/2006 10:50:50 AM · #118 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
..."I don't get all of these setup shots in bokeh - don't people know that natural outdoor settings are the best for good bokeh?" |
That's soooo funny. I have a comment that says it looks too setup, yet it's an outdoor shot! And I swear, I found it that way!
My only other comment says if they hadn't come back to comment, they would have missed what was in the shot!
BTW - my score sucks as usual. 4.7 |
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10/27/2006 10:52:17 AM · #119 |
IMHO, it is easier to critisize and tear down than it is to build up for most people, especially when they have a vested interest in a challenge via their own entry.
There are a lot of new photographers here that don't deserve to be dumped on because they don't know that there are 100's of cute kids, dogs, cats, insects, flowers etc. shots and to a seasoned DPC'er those have been done to death.
This is a confusing challenge. I would suggest that, for the benefit of new photographers, that someone define DOF vs. bokeh in a clear manner, side by side, so that no one is confused. This would be a build up and far more constructive than condemnation. I believe this can be a true educational site with a positive flow. I'd hate to think that the only learning some new budding photographer was acquiring was how to hate photography.
I "think" I know the difference between DOF & bokeh but then my score on my own entry doesn't necessarily reflect it.
I feel that if you can't clearly state the differences so that we can all understand than perhaps that person needs to re-evaluate their own voting patterns and perhaps not be quite so harsh.
Just my 2 cents worth. -Caitlyn |
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10/27/2006 11:01:49 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by dallasdux:
What is one's benchmark for voting.
Do you start with a 0 and go up with what was right
Start with 5 (average) and then add/subtract for rights/wrongs
Or start with a 10 and then deduct on what was not 'right' |
Starting with a 5 makes sense to me. In a range of 0-10, 5 is average. If the picture looks average it gets a 5 (I suppose that is why I cringe when I get a below 5 vote on my pics). If it makes me think, hmmmm, it usually gets a 6 or better. If it's a wow, it gets 8 to 9 to 10. I absolutely hate to give 4s and below. Many times I'll give a 4 rather than a 2 or 3. And heaven forbid giving a 2 or 3 to someone's child!
What I don't understand is the lack of comments on some of the pics. Last challenge I entered I had to beg for comments as I did not get a one during the challenge. This challenge I'm at 4.3 (and that's coming up in the score) and only 1 comment. |
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10/27/2006 11:10:13 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
... I can plan for that type of audience next time. ;-)
... gain a better understanding of the term through discussion, and personally I'd rather have people voting with as much understanding as possible. |
Good luck in Bokeh IV now that you know the audience! :D
As for understanding thru discussion - where does the "understanding" come from?
If the source of understanding comes from a thread discussion such as this thread, it's not right. There is little discussion taking place that is unbiased and how can all points be represented? The definition is based on those who speak the loudest, longest, most frequent?
Personally, I think trying to define a challenge theme/subject while the challenge is actively being voted isn't right. Before the challenge - fine. Once the challenge has started the political soapbox gets setup and various themes of what qualifies as DNMC is more prevalant than anything else. |
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10/27/2006 11:11:52 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by atupdate:
Just finished voting and bumping. There were several exceptional images where the bokeh enhanced the image. I ended up giving out four 10's on four very different images and different type of bokehs. I've never given out four 10's before. Nice work by those who knew how to enhance their image with bokeh. |
Interesting... I've given out 18 10s and I've only voted on 30% of the entries. Apparently I'm more easily impressed. :) |
Yeah, I'm close to 30% too, and have a ton of 10s and 9s (haven't counted them). Neat stuff there. I have a couple lows too, just so nobody thinks I'm too easily impressed :) |
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10/27/2006 11:11:55 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by sherpet:
Ursula, you definately don't need to copy ideas, as you have the "best" ones all sewn up..... But is saying that, it would be really nice to know which ones you do like, as we would all love to have your seal of approval, thats for sure.....
Originally posted by ursula:
I don't know. I've been looking at some more of the entries, and there are some really, really good ones. The only problem is, now I'm getting all sorts of ideas to copy :) |
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Copy that Sherpet!
And it seems there a few Ursula copy cats have been posted in the Bokeh challenge. Two images of which I'm sure where inspired by previously posted pics and one which has that special Ursula touch. They all look great. |
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10/27/2006 11:17:46 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by Techo:
Originally posted by sherpet:
Ursula, you definately don't need to copy ideas, as you have the "best" ones all sewn up..... But is saying that, it would be really nice to know which ones you do like, as we would all love to have your seal of approval, thats for sure.....
Originally posted by ursula:
I don't know. I've been looking at some more of the entries, and there are some really, really good ones. The only problem is, now I'm getting all sorts of ideas to copy :) |
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Copy that Sherpet!
And it seems there a few Ursula copy cats have been posted in the Bokeh challenge. Two images of which I'm sure where inspired by previously posted pics and one which has that special Ursula touch. They all look great. |
Yeah, thank you. But the good thing is, looking at all those pictures you get so many new ideas, and you find out that there might be some ways to do these pictures that are very different than anything I've attempted before - and that's the fun part! I am a terrible learner, I read poorly, and I learn mainly by imitation - so looking at entries is very good. |
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10/27/2006 11:21:11 AM · #125 |
I for one hope you find my "Bokeh" entry, as I look forward to your comment as usual Ursula.....
It is definately in there amongst all those 435 "Bokeh" entries.....
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by Techo:
Originally posted by sherpet:
Ursula, you definately don't need to copy ideas, as you have the "best" ones all sewn up..... But is saying that, it would be really nice to know which ones you do like, as we would all love to have your seal of approval, thats for sure.....
Originally posted by ursula:
I don't know. I've been looking at some more of the entries, and there are some really, really good ones. The only problem is, now I'm getting all sorts of ideas to copy :) |
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Copy that Sherpet!
And it seems there a few Ursula copy cats have been posted in the Bokeh challenge. Two images of which I'm sure where inspired by previously posted pics and one which has that special Ursula touch. They all look great. |
Yeah, thank you. But the good thing is, looking at all those pictures you get so many new ideas, and you find out that there might be some ways to do these pictures that are very different than anything I've attempted before - and that's the fun part! I am a terrible learner, I read poorly, and I learn mainly by imitation - so looking at entries is very good. |
Message edited by author 2006-10-27 11:22:21.
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