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10/17/2006 03:01:07 PM · #76
Originally posted by mad_brewer:

... Getting comments on outtakes can be just as valuable as your actual entry. Even somebody suggesting that you chose the wrong one for entry can help you look at your photography differently. It can be a great way to learn.

Quite true, and is already being done after the challenge has finished voting.
10/17/2006 03:06:39 PM · #77
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by mad_brewer:

... Getting comments on outtakes can be just as valuable as your actual entry. Even somebody suggesting that you chose the wrong one for entry can help you look at your photography differently. It can be a great way to learn.

Quite true, and is already being done after the challenge has finished voting.


Also before and during the challenge.
10/17/2006 03:08:03 PM · #78
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by BradP:


1 outtake (aka wanna be extra entry)
Votes: N/A
Views: 13
Aver Vote: N/A
Comments: a few at best
Favorites: Possibly a few
Wishlist: N/A

I think you're understating this.

From a recent early "outtake" thread Sooooo Pissed...30 seconds late!!!!! vote now!. I'll let you look up the image yourself if so inclined.

Stats on this "outtake" image. The comments (nice lengthy ones at that) came prior to the image being removed per notice of the outtake rule being brought to light.

Viewed: 225
Comments: 7
Favorites: 1 (view)

Here is the case for a stand-alone thread for just such a thing. A central repository during the challenge of "outtakes" and "missed it by that much" shots people want to share and get feedback on. Your example above is not the norm, and suspect a lot of it is due to gossip - "did you see what so & so posted? Oh the audacity".
For those not reading the forum rules recommendations, the post and contents can be moved by SC, though I don't wish them more burden than they areleady have.

Edit to add:
I just now clicked and remember that thread, and as I stated then, and will say again:

Such a shame people have to tip-toe around, worrying that they didn't seek legal counsel before posting something or discussing something. Not pointing any fingers here, but it never seems to fail that no matter what, somebody's gonna' get pissed-off about something around here.
The title could have easily been changed on her behalf or the thread moved over to the individual photograph forum and mention of it beeing late would have been fine.

Had I missed the deadline with a great shot, (like I can take one anymore - Ha!) I may have, in the heat of the moment of frustration, done exactly the same as Blue Moon did. It's not like there are tens of thousands of dollars at stake in the challenges here.

Before pointing a loaded shotgun at someone for being human, ask yourself if you have even made a mistake here or anywhere else and remember what it felt like to be looking down a few barrels.

ugh.


Message edited by author 2006-10-17 15:11:04.
10/17/2006 03:08:59 PM · #79
I participate in challenges regularly, but that would not be enough to keep me here at DPC. The only reason I'm still here, and the only reason I'm considering staying here in the future, is the thriving exchange of ideas that occurs outside of the challenges. This is where minority views are allowed to have a voice, and a little impact. This is where I can get some appreciation for images that do not appeal to the lowest common denominator. I am definitely against any rule that threatens this exchange of ideas in order to maintain some sort of purity for the challenges.

But of course the votes are against me. The majority votes for tyranny of the majority. They've been known to do that.
10/17/2006 03:17:42 PM · #80
Originally posted by posthumous:


But of course the votes are against me. The majority votes for tyranny of the majority. They've been known to do that.


I don't really see how having people wait until after a challenge is over to discuss outtakes / challenge shots limits the creative discussion and creates an air of tyranny. The same discussion can take place. In some cases, even a better discussion can take place, because it can be done knowing how other photos have performed.
10/17/2006 03:24:10 PM · #81
I still haven't seen anyone post a rational way to police challenge outtakes in the context of broad topics like B&W and Free Studies.
10/17/2006 03:28:44 PM · #82
Originally posted by mist:


I don't really see how having people wait until after a challenge is over to discuss outtakes / challenge shots limits the creative discussion and creates an air of tyranny. The same discussion can take place. In some cases, even a better discussion can take place, because it can be done knowing how other photos have performed.

But.
Feedback gained during a challenge via a separate thread, will generally be from the active members here rather than by the voting masses, and that is a huge difference.
Look at the numbers of votes on a challenge image, and how many are vote only. Of say 300 votes, how many are active commenters, thread posters, opinion-givers in threads, etc.
A small percentage I would venture to guess.
The respected members committed to involvement here and helping out is who I would be targeting if I were looking for second opinions or feedback on a shot missed or alternate/outtake shot.
10/17/2006 03:28:56 PM · #83
Originally posted by scalvert:

I still haven't seen anyone post a rational way to police challenge outtakes in the context of broad topics like B&W and Free Studies.


Not an easy task, for sure. All I can think of if there are such broad challenges running is to keep an eye on outtake posts to ensure that they aren't discussed in a context that implies a connection to the challenge (EG what score would you give this) but rather in an artistic or technical way (how could I improve this, what do you think of this shot).

meh.
10/17/2006 03:30:06 PM · #84
Originally posted by scalvert:

I still haven't seen anyone post a rational way to police challenge outtakes in the context of broad topics like B&W and Free Studies.

Or lighting - criminee - every shot is about lighting.

(I'm just waiting to see my fav numbers drop after this thread);)

Message edited by author 2006-10-17 15:32:02.
10/17/2006 03:33:25 PM · #85
Originally posted by BradP:

But.
Feedback gained during a challenge via a separate thread, will generally be from the active members here rather than by the voting masses, and that is a huge difference.


Fair point. I still don't see why it can't wait until after voting though. That seems a reasonable arrangement to me. Seperate thread? great idea. Encouraging as many comments as possible? Great idea. Having the discussion take place during voting? Well, to me that seems a bit odd. I can't see the need for the discussion to take place during the voting.
10/17/2006 03:33:28 PM · #86
Originally posted by scalvert:

I still haven't seen anyone post a rational way to police challenge outtakes in the context of broad topics like B&W and Free Studies.

Simple. Look for threads or postings that say "This is my outtake...", "I thought about entering this...", "How do you think this would have done...", etc...

Really. Enforcing the outtake rule is a tough nut. As I pointed out earlier, posting an image to an 'Individual Photograph Discussion' thread and NOT saying anything about it being an outtake or a challenge consideration, you can get all the feedback you want. :)
10/17/2006 03:34:10 PM · #87
Originally posted by scalvert:

I still haven't seen anyone post a rational way to police challenge outtakes in the context of broad topics like B&W and Free Studies.


I still say this is quite simple. DO NOT LABEL IT AN OUTTAKE! This is a photography site. And, you should be free to post anything you like (within site guidelines of course) in your portfolio. If you'd like to bring attention to it, do so through the forums as an individual photo discussion titled "Advise on lighting" or whatever. Just don't say "what would you score this" and IMHO it's not an outtake.

edit: glad2badad beat me to it.


Message edited by author 2006-10-17 15:35:19.
10/17/2006 03:34:18 PM · #88
The argument on both sides is silly. Those that say outtakes influence votes has nothing to base that on. Same goes for the other side who says outtakes does not influence votes. Fact is that has never been tested here. Asking people if the "rule is working" doesn't even begin to answer that question.

What's interesting in all of this is how both sides come to agreement that people in general are pretty stupid. Those that are against outtakes and discussions about current challenges believe people seeing those outtakes or reading those discussions will therefore be unable to vote fairly, which is another way of saying people can't think for themselves.

And on the other hand you have those that are in favor of outtakes and challenge discussions believing that simply not calling them that will somehow trick people into thinking otherwise. Don't call this photo "An outtake from the Train challenge" just call it "I need feedback on this photo and oh yeah my photo is of train tracks". I mean it just doesn't get any better than this. Everyone here should be a politician.

For what's it worth, I favor allowing outtakes for the sole reason that it is impossible to regulate otherwise.

Message edited by author 2006-10-17 15:38:25.
10/17/2006 03:35:19 PM · #89
Originally posted by mist:

I can't see the need for the discussion to take place during the voting.

No time like the present while it's fresh in mind. This place moves pretty fast.
10/17/2006 03:41:31 PM · #90
Originally posted by BradP:

Originally posted by mist:

I can't see the need for the discussion to take place during the voting.

No time like the present while it's fresh in mind. This place moves pretty fast.


Tsk. People are too fickle then. ;)

Probably though the only reason that an outake would get more attention during a challenge than after on here right now is because it's not the done thing, so the thread would be contraversial. Remove the contraversy (the rule) and you also remove the very thing that attracts more attention to the outake threads during the challenges. So there's no more interest than there would be in an outtake thread after the challenge.

Just my opinion, mind. Anyone reading the number of replies I've made here would probably garner the false impression that I'm really that fussed one way or the other. As I said a fair few posts ago I don't really think that this seems to happen enough to bother about all that much.
10/17/2006 03:43:59 PM · #91
Originally posted by nshapiro:

... Perhaps this is a separate discussion, but I don't think there shoud be "discussion" of challenges once the voting has started, until it's over.

You can't change your mind about your photo once entered; but discussion often changes many minds about the meaning of the challenge. ...

Just my two cents. Yes, it's not exactly the outtake issue, but in fact, I feel it's strongly related!

Outtakes during challenge voting and ensuing discussions are not appropriate IMO, especially when they start going down the "there's already enough of subject xxxxx", etc...

I think this is a real part of the issue that many want to overlook or say doesn't happen.

Again, many times it comes down to how things are worded (as others just recently stated).

From around 12:30 today if you want to fill in the of Neil's post I quoted.
10/17/2006 03:57:23 PM · #92


Originally posted by kdsprog":

When you have people declaring what they will consider DNMC before hand you directly influence how people will vote.


I think this is a good thing. For a few reasons. a) it provides opportunity to correct new photographers on technical challenges both before entry and in voting. For instance, "Deep DOF" I remember there being quite a bit of confusion on that and thankfully for me and others we read threads explaining it's meaning versus shallow DOF. That led us to enter the correct type of photo. And not vote down correctly entered photos. b) I'd like to know what everyone thinks is a DNMC or hear it bantered. I've been nailed on a number of occasions for DNMC.

My recent "Beer and Soft Drink" entry received DNMC by some because my entry with Rubber Duckies and Woodchuck cider happens not to contain beer nor soft drink. Technically, cider is not made from grains. But does contain alcohol so it is not a "soft" drink.

I would have loved to have it re-inforced that it had to be a beer or non-alcoholic drink. Instead of receiving a "1" on an entry I made in good faith with a bit of blind unrealization.

I am here for my photography...not to bloody pick with a fine tooth come what is going to get me a "1" on some minor technicality. I hate that crud. So discussing such would save time.

Oh...and let's discuss my entry

[thumbs]404098[/thumbs]

Should I not be able to discuss my entry because it contains both a "Rubber Ducky" and a "Woody" (well Woodchuck cider). So should I not be allowed to discuss said photo because of it's relevance to two current challenges.

I think there is a difference between "giving away who you are" and simply discussing photos relevant to the challenge. I can understand that we vote anonymously and we endeavor to eliminate that influence where possible. The latter, I do not understand. Hey, want to keep it all in a single thread that can be blocked out by users if they choose. Fine.

I also find that the post-completion challenge outtakes usually receive little attention. The challenge is over, we're onto new things.

I imagine not everyone who votes even participates in the forums. (ie: my wife, she enters and votes on photos, but I don't think she's ever posted in the forums). So I always wonder what effect it has.

I will usually vote the same on a foto.

Originally posted by "bear_music":

If you were having an opening of a photography show at a gallery, and someone came in with his own portfolio and spread it out in the corner and engaged your guests in a dialogue about HIS pictures, wouldn't you feel a little put out?


But if there was a lounge and in that lounge were numerous photographers all talking about and sharing their work. All came to see my gallery and hung around to talk photography. Why, I'd be honored and likely go over and join them. And problem share my thoughts too.

Originally posted by "GeneralE":


We have a challenge posted, and along comes someone and says "look at me (my picture) instead" -- it just doesn't seem right to do that during the voting period.


a) I voted on all the ducky entries. Why can't I discuss more ducky photos?

b) Why discuss any photos on DPC forums whatsoever. Or anything else really. As it detracts from time people could be spending to vote or comment within the challenge.

c) Darn it...400 entries. I don't have enough time to make the minimum 20% of votes. So I'll just hang out in the forums. Truth be told, this is me half the times. Why? Cause loading one image at a time in voting is extremely slow for me. Even with a fast internet connection. I used to be able to have like 4-5 voting windows and as one loaded I'd click over to the next to vote. Now, I am stuck at a snail pace of one photo at a time. Frankly, I don't have hours a week to waste voting at that pace. I try to vote a challenge here or there. Or, I'll do a few critiques instead.
10/17/2006 03:57:24 PM · #93
It's all been said before, if an out take can influence a challenge entry in the voting it should not be shown until after the challenge is over, and should lead to a DQ of the challenge entry, as this could be seen as trying to alter the voting in a manner not accepted by the site council.
10/17/2006 03:59:18 PM · #94
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Outtakes during challenge voting and ensuing discussions are not appropriate IMO, especially when they start going down the "there's already enough of subject xxxxx", etc...


I can get the part about it not being "appropriate" for reasons that Bear mentioned earlier (i.e. it lacks courtesy to those that have photos on "display" in the challenges) but that's where it ends, IMO. The fact that a bunch of people are saying there are "too many flowers" for example is very valuable information that everyone should take as such. Everyone should know by now that a lot of people hate flowers so them communicating that in the forums isn't anything new. As the photographer this reaffirms that you need to really "bring it" if you're entering a flower in the challenge. I can't think of a better victory than winning or placing high with a subject that so many people have disdain for. That to me is the highest possible mountain anybody can reach much more gratifying than winning with something that everyone already loves to begin with.

10/17/2006 04:00:11 PM · #95
Originally posted by scalvert:

I still haven't seen anyone post a rational way to police challenge outtakes in the context of broad topics like B&W and Free Studies.


A very good question.... and I don't have an answer either.

Regard for the existing rule is haphazard, enforcement is arbitrary, as flagrant violations are posted with and without diplomacy. This is the second poll on the issue. It is apparent the rule cannot be enforced, and has been an embarrassment since the ban was originally set. The only solution that I see is to make site arrangements to allow individual members an option to utilize this particular controversial forum.
10/17/2006 04:00:53 PM · #96
Come on, let's discuss this photo...and don't tell me "no"

The challenge is already over. Don't tell me it's unfair to other who took the time to enter....so did I!



To me, my entry shows the perfect conundrum of this rule. Heck, it could be considered an outtake of two challenges... "Ducky" and "Woody"

I really think we should simply focus on not posting photos that will unneccassarily reveal the photographer's identity.

Humor:

Obviously, my above photo's score of mediocrity was directly due to the SC council releasing two similar challenges while my entry was in voting.

I believe we need a new rule that SC cannot post challenges that are at all related to photo entries currently being voted upon. It's clear that such photos votes might be affected by such.

Message edited by author 2006-10-17 16:25:04.
10/17/2006 04:06:35 PM · #97
Originally posted by hywind:

It's all been said before, if an out take can influence a challenge entry in the voting it should not be shown until after the challenge is over, and should lead to a DQ of the challenge entry, as this could be seen as trying to alter the voting in a manner not accepted by the site council.


That's a very specific case. Why don't we just police this one case and leave other discussion alone?
10/17/2006 04:16:38 PM · #98
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by hywind:

It's all been said before, if an out take can influence a challenge entry in the voting it should not be shown until after the challenge is over, and should lead to a DQ of the challenge entry, as this could be seen as trying to alter the voting in a manner not accepted by the site council.


That's a very specific case. Why don't we just police this one case and leave other discussion alone?


What proof is there that seeing an outtake influence votes? People assume that but there has been no test conducted that produced that finding. We are letting "fear" dictate policy and we don't even know if that fear is even real.
10/17/2006 04:22:23 PM · #99
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by hywind:

It's all been said before, if an out take can influence a challenge entry in the voting it should not be shown until after the challenge is over, and should lead to a DQ of the challenge entry, as this could be seen as trying to alter the voting in a manner not accepted by the site council.


That's a very specific case. Why don't we just police this one case and leave other discussion alone?


I think the problem is, that when that statement was made, it was referring to mainly the concept of revealing one's identity to encourage votes. Or directly and deliberately influencing votes. Hence, the harsh sentence of DQ'ing the entry.

"Any attempts to alter the point totals in any way for any photograph will result in immediate loss of account and a ban from the site."

Somehow, that seems extremely harsh judgment for just discussing say a photo that missed the submission deadline by 10 minutes because the clock on the computer was wrong and posted what would have been their entry in a forum thread expressing how bummed they were they missed the challenge.

I keep hearing such rules quoted. But that would mean a discussion on what constitutes purple from pink could be interpreted to affect votes and therefore everyone in such discussion should be banned from DPC and their accounts deleted.

Something seems mightily screwed up if that's the interpretation we go with. Originally when I came to the site it was explained that one does not post outtakes of entries currently in a challenge that might lead reveal the photographer. It seems like we are putting a bigger and bigger and bigger fence on things. That can sound nice....but we could one day find ourselves unable to eat cheeseburgers because we're not supposed to roast a kid in his mother's milk...yet have no issue eating a chicken and egg salad sandwich.

*shrug*

I support the policy of prohibiting the posting of a directly related photo outtake of an entry.

An alternate photo entirely, a related image not eligible due to submission dates, a discussion on the color purple and if pink is purple. These things...I see no issue with. In fact, I find them beneficial.
10/17/2006 06:10:59 PM · #100
Originally posted by yanko:

The argument on both sides is silly.

How respectful.
Originally posted by yanko:

Those that say outtakes influence votes has nothing to base that on.

That's not true -- if you read the discussions which occurred before the rule was put in place, people cited specific examples where an "additionally-posted" picture had a direct effect on their score.

Message edited by author 2006-10-17 18:15:09.
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