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10/17/2006 11:27:48 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by undieyatch:
... It has been suggested that a CURRENT CHALLENGE OUTAKES thread option be introduced, and I would agree with that. Members who find outtakes impolite or a noisy intrusion can turn it off. |
Oh, that sounds like fun! I could nose around in the outtakes and try and figure out who's entry is who's based on the outtakes. :) Could be a very busy place. |
You would undoubtedly be in a select group. Outtake threads, seldom when ever they are posted ever extend beyond a page or two and with pretty low hits. |
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10/17/2006 11:30:21 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I could nose around in the outtakes and try and figure out who's entry is who's based on the outtakes. |
Good luck, detective. Even when outtakes were allowed, those that revealed current challenge entries were still forbidden. |
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10/17/2006 11:37:39 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by undieyatch:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by undieyatch:
... It has been suggested that a CURRENT CHALLENGE OUTAKES thread option be introduced, and I would agree with that. Members who find outtakes impolite or a noisy intrusion can turn it off. |
Oh, that sounds like fun! I could nose around in the outtakes and try and figure out who's entry is who's based on the outtakes. :) Could be a very busy place. |
... Outtake threads, seldom when ever they are posted ever extend beyond a page or two and with pretty low hits. |
Ah yes, but those are 'Outtakes' that show up after the challenge. Get an outtake thread going during the active challenge and I think it'd be a whole different story. :) |
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10/17/2006 11:46:18 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I could nose around in the outtakes and try and figure out who's entry is who's based on the outtakes. |
Good luck, detective. Even when outtakes were allowed, those that revealed current challenge entries were still forbidden. |
Well, that was a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but think about this; does it matter if I (plug in anyone) correctly identify the entry or not?
If I (again...pick someone) think I know who's entry it is, then should a person have alterior motives (vote it up because it's someone you like, vote it down because it's someone you don't like, or perhaps you have a thing about blowing the anonymity of an entry, etc...).
Either way, correctly identified or not, potential reactions are out there. Good, bad, ugly - pick one. Why go there? |
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10/17/2006 11:47:17 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by undieyatch:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by undieyatch:
... It has been suggested that a CURRENT CHALLENGE OUTAKES thread option be introduced, and I would agree with that. Members who find outtakes impolite or a noisy intrusion can turn it off. |
Oh, that sounds like fun! I could nose around in the outtakes and try and figure out who's entry is who's based on the outtakes. :) Could be a very busy place. |
... Outtake threads, seldom when ever they are posted ever extend beyond a page or two and with pretty low hits. |
Ah yes, but those are 'Outtakes' that show up after the challenge. Get an outtake thread going during the active challenge and I think it'd be a whole different story. :) |
your speculation is interesting, and could conceivably be true - which I think would be a good thing. However, the history of outtake threads, before or after the current and unenforceable illegal designation does not bear this out. |
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10/17/2006 11:52:23 AM · #31 |
I think all of this discussion is pretty much missing the real point, or at least what I see as the real point; for me it's not so much a matter of possible influencing of the voters, it's a matter of civility. Forgive me for continually restating this, but I think it's important.
If you were having an opening of a photography show at a gallery, and someone came in with his own portfolio and spread it out in the corner and engaged your guests in a dialogue about HIS pictures, wouldn't you feel a little put out? It's just not polite, it's not "civilized". That's not a perfect parallel, but that's sort of the principle I'm worried about.
R. |
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10/17/2006 12:11:23 PM · #32 |
I have to agree with Bear. Even though we can do something, doesn't mean we should do something. I believe that outtake threads are unlikely to change scores to any meaningful extent. However, I do think it is sorta odd to have such a thread exist while the challenge is underway.
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10/17/2006 12:13:23 PM · #33 |
My opinion is the original question was not worded correctly.
It should have been "During a challenge, does posting of outtakes influence your voting?", the results would be far more relevant :)
As it stands the original is questioning what I think *others* are doing.
My opinion overall: people give the forums far too much credit for voter sway; I feel scores, both knowing and showing, has the potential to influence votes far more than any outtake.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 12:14:55.
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10/17/2006 12:13:39 PM · #34 |
Yeah, I'd have to go with the Bear train of thought too.
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10/17/2006 12:15:28 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I think all of this discussion is pretty much missing the real point, or at least what I see as the real point; for me it's not so much a matter of possible influencing of the voters, it's a matter of civility. Forgive me for continually restating this, but I think it's important.
If you were having an opening of a photography show at a gallery, and someone came in with his own portfolio and spread it out in the corner and engaged your guests in a dialogue about HIS pictures, wouldn't you feel a little put out? It's just not polite, it's not "civilized". That's not a perfect parallel, but that's sort of the principle I'm worried about.
R. |
I agree. What difference does it make to wait one week? Why is it so important to show your similar photos immediately? Is it because of the forbidden fruit syndrome? I don't get what the big deal is.....I can't see one positive aspect for the competition to showing similar photos before voting ends and the possible negative results support the rule the way it is now.
Dex
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10/17/2006 12:19:40 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
I agree. What difference does it make to wait one week? Why is it so important to show your similar photos immediately? Is it because of the forbidden fruit syndrome? I don't get what the big deal is.....I can't see one positive aspect for the competition to showing similar photos before voting ends and the possible negative results support the rule the way it is now.
Dex |
Or in other words, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The many in this case being the challenge entrants, and the few being those who, in the duration or voting on a particular challenge decide to present photos on the challenge theme. It just shouldn't be done. Even if you've "just shot a set" that weekend, they can wait until afterwards, really. |
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10/17/2006 12:21:08 PM · #37 |
I don't care if it influences voting; if you have an entry, and you post an "alternate or out-take" in a thread for discussion, you effectively have two entries in the current challenge. Everybody else has limited themselves to one photo, and that's why, as has been pointed out, it's just not polite or fair.
We have a challenge posted, and along comes someone and says "look at me (my picture) instead" -- it just doesn't seem right to do that during the voting period.
Also, it makes no sense to me to compare such a photo with the challenge entries -- "how would this have done?" -- until the challenge results are over, and you can have a meaningful answer based on the actual results. How can that question possibly be answered during the voting? |
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10/17/2006 12:24:29 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I think all of this discussion is pretty much missing the real point, or at least what I see as the real point; for me it's not so much a matter of possible influencing of the voters, it's a matter of civility. Forgive me for continually restating this, but I think it's important.
If you were having an opening of a photography show at a gallery, and someone came in with his own portfolio and spread it out in the corner and engaged your guests in a dialogue about HIS pictures, wouldn't you feel a little put out? It's just not polite, it's not "civilized". That's not a perfect parallel, but that's sort of the principle I'm worried about.
R. |
As one who favors outtakes - I respect your opinion against them.
However, it is obvious the site is unable to regulate the outtake rule.
To address your imperfect parallel - other types of lobbying and influence peddling, (not that proper outtakes or proper prechallenge threads should have anything to do with that) - There are easily many kinds of threads and postings that may not be relevant to individuals and be viewed as offensive - overbearing & unreasonably slanted.
As with any other type of thread I would suggest Members who find outtakes impolite or a noisy intrusion can turn it off or press ignore.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 14:36:10. |
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10/17/2006 12:30:04 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by mist:
Originally posted by neophyte:
I agree. What difference does it make to wait one week? Why is it so important to show your similar photos immediately? Is it because of the forbidden fruit syndrome? I don't get what the big deal is.....I can't see one positive aspect for the competition to showing similar photos before voting ends and the possible negative results support the rule the way it is now.
Dex |
Or in other words, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The many in this case being the challenge entrants, and the few being those who, in the duration or voting on a particular challenge decide to present photos on the challenge theme. It just shouldn't be done. Even if you've "just shot a set" that weekend, they can wait until afterwards, really. |
Yes. Really. I ask again, what's the big deal? Why can't courtesy prevail. If you don't have the intestinal fortitude to enter your photo or decide between multiple ones, why should you be exempt to civility? Allow those in the competition to have a less distracted voter and the attention they deserve by taking the risk to enter.
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10/17/2006 12:31:58 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by undieyatch:
... As with any other type of thread I would suggest Members who find outtakes impolite or a noisy intrusion can turn it off or press ignore. |
How does that help members? Most likely it's those same members that images in the challenge that need people viewing/voting on the challenge entries. How is hiding a thread related? It still exists. |
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10/17/2006 12:36:37 PM · #41 |
I think it's fine, but I want to add that it doesn't go far enough.
Perhaps this is a separate discussion, but I don't think there shoud be "discussion" of challenges once the voting has started, until it's over.
You can't change your mind about your photo once entered; but discussion often changes many minds about the meaning of the challenge.
Second, I don't think the "score" threads should be allowed. Although misery loves company, I think they do just that--make people who are not scoring well feel miserable for the whole week compared to others. And often people effectively reveal their entries to others by declaring "thanks 'userid' for that comment about how great my composition was.."
Why can't we just hold that discussion as well until the end of the week? Perhaps then, IMHO, people will spend their time talking about photography instead of scores and commiserating.
Just my two cents. Yes, it's not exactly the outtake issue, but in fact, I feel it's strongly related!
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10/17/2006 12:38:20 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
If you were having an opening of a photography show at a gallery, and someone came in with his own portfolio and spread it out in the corner and engaged your guests in a dialogue about HIS pictures, wouldn't you feel a little put out? |
Sure, but consider that this particular gallery has a constant stream of other portfolios opening for review. You might feel equally put out by people being distracted with last week's outtakes on at least 3 challenges, not to mention GTG photos, portrait sessions, etc. There is some irony to be found between alternating forum threads on lack of originality in the challenge entries ("It's all been seen before") and claims that posting new photos outside the challenges will unfairly distract or influence voters. :-/
The bigger issue for me is how to police such a beast. If the current challenge is Color Studio Portrait, then that means nobody can post a self-portrait, or model session for a week? What about Black & White or Landscape topics? Hey, there's a Free Study every month, so strictly speaking, that means no photos should EVER be posted. That may sound silly but people WILL report the darn things, so how is the SC supposed to respond? |
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10/17/2006 12:43:44 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
The bigger issue for me is how to police such a beast. If the current challenge is Color Studio Portrait, then that means nobody can post a self-portrait, or model session for a week? What about Black & White or Landscape topics? Hey, there's a Free Study every month, so strictly speaking, that means no photos should EVER be posted. That may sound silly but people WILL report the darn things, so how is the SC supposed to respond? |
I thought the ban would be during voting so it would only be one week. BUT...You bring out the most valid point here...Proposing policy is one thing, enforcing it is another. Some things will just have be left to (hopefully) the members and users using some sort of honor system and cross our fingers.
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10/17/2006 12:45:11 PM · #44 |
Funny how so much of what needs to be in rules wasn't a problem a year or two ago, making me think it's not so much the what, but the who. More should relax, not split hairs and just have fun in my opinion, as the fun has been slowly fading away...
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10/17/2006 12:47:50 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
... Just my two cents. Yes, it's not exactly the outtake issue, but in fact, I feel it's strongly related! |
Neil, I didn't want to take more space by quoting all of your post...I agree 100% with what you've said. |
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10/17/2006 12:50:38 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
I thought the ban would be during voting so it would only be one week. |
This is true, but the rule is impractical at best. Let's say I take a great B&W portrait of a model and want to share it or get some feedback on lighting or other technical issues. The current topic Portrait, so if I post it to a thread, someone will complain and ask the SC to hide it. Fine, I can wait a week. Oh, but next week's topic is Black & White (same problem), and the week after that it's Eyes. It doesn't matter if I never intended to enter the shot in either challenge because anyone could claim that. On a site dedicated to learning and sharing photography, the rule becomes ludicrous. |
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10/17/2006 12:51:46 PM · #47 |
I concur with Brad :(
--
After that:
All the talk originally was how it disrupted votes, now it's about how people *feel* about seeing outtakes - I didn't see that side before.
Me: I don't care, show them off. If you don't like it don't look. I honestly have no idea how one can think it could take focus from a challenge; people, many, many people, will still vote on challenges.
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10/17/2006 12:53:36 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Funny how so much of what needs to be in rules wasn't a problem a year or two ago, making me think it's not so much the what, but the who. More should relax, not split hairs and just have fun in my opinion, as the fun has been slowly fading away... |
Your point is valid. But many involved in this discussion (on both sides) have been part of this site for more than one year so I'm not sure it's the who.
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10/17/2006 12:53:46 PM · #49 |
What's really a shame is that we never seem to have a thorough, in-depth discussion of the challenge results -- except maybe the "under-rated" threads -- afterwards. That would be the time to throw in alternates or out-takes and compare them with how the entries actually finished.
Oh, and I think the main "change" needed is to label them "out-takes or alternates to entries" ...
I don't think it's that hard to "police" is people use common sense. Here's how I see it working:
If there's a current challenge on "Portraits," don't post a thread saying "Look at my latest portrait series" -- post one which says "New photos -- comments welcome."
Then, people who look at your images should not comment "this would've been great in the 'Portraits' challenge" in the Forum thread; they can put that comment on the image's thread. That way, no one who just looks into the thread to see what's there need read any opinions they might not want to see, and the poster is not deliberately drawing attention away from the challenge.
It's not that hard to be polite.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 13:02:34. |
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10/17/2006 12:57:27 PM · #50 |
| How it should be changed: outtake should be defined as an alternate to a submitted image. If the person has no submitted image, whatever they post is not an outtake. |
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