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DPChallenge Forums >> Individual Photograph Discussion >> Some homeless portraits
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 10/08/2006 02:48:21 AM · #1
Since the challenge is over, I thought I'd share some homeless portraits I took in the same day.



More details are under each image. thanks
 10/08/2006 04:31:19 AM · #2
Great pics, way to capture it. No crits..
 10/08/2006 05:29:08 AM · #3
Am I the only person here who feels a little morally uncomfortable about shots of the homeless etc being displayed for purely 'artistic' reasons?

Now if the shots were taken with the intention of trying to help remedy the problem of homelesness, then I guess I would feel somewhat differently. But to take the shot with a view to using it for something as trivial as entering/posting it here.....I don't know. I completely respect the opinions of those who might disagree with me, but to me there are some ethical issues to be considered.

Incidentally, I'm not having a go at you personally Joey. You're not the first person to post such pics on here, and I'm sure you won't be the last.

Qiki.
 10/08/2006 05:36:25 AM · #4
Well he didn't exactly steal the shot, and I'm also not sure if Joey's intention were purely artistic? Unless trying to make a statement about poverty in Toronto has become artistic? I guess it really depends on the photographers approach to this. Does he want to get a great shot because shooting homeless people might be a trend, or does he want to take a picture and tell the mans story? It's a valid point Qiki, however I feel it needs to be checked out on a case by case basis. Just my 2 cents, not trying to start anything :)
 10/08/2006 05:49:41 AM · #5
Thanks for your point of view Noel. Like I said, it was not my intention to have a go at Joey specifically and obviously I cannot know the motivations of anybody taking these sort of shots. But I wonder how many photographers taking these shots go work in a soup kitchen for a few hours before they begin shooting, or make a specific point of using the their work to raise awareness of the plight of the homeless, or donate any money raised from sales of their work to charities to aid the homeless, or pay their 'models' more than a few bucks, or obtain a release from their 'models' in the same way that they might if they were shooting nudes in a studio etc etc???

10/08/2006 05:59:15 AM · #6
Originally posted by Qiki:
Thanks for your point of view Noel. Like I said, it was not my intention to have a go at Joey specifically and obviously I cannot know the motivations of anybody taking these sort of shots. But I wonder how many photographers taking these shots go work in a soup kitchen for a few hours before they begin shooting, or make a specific point of using the their work to raise awareness of the plight of the homeless, or donate any money raised from sales of their work to charities to aid the homeless, or pay their 'models' more than a few bucks, or obtain a release from their 'models' in the same way that they might if they were shooting nudes in a studio etc etc???


Agreed, the worst case secnario (stealing the shot & making good money off it for personal gain) is downright disrespectful. I guess we can just hope there are more good photographers then bad ones out there :/
 10/08/2006 07:26:09 AM · #7
I'm pretty sure Mr Lawrence will come back and answer this, but if I recall from reading his comments on other similar shots, he usually does give something to his "models" - if nothing else, he offers human contact, friendship and warmth, very worthy commodities to anyone in any circumstance. :-)
 10/08/2006 07:52:36 AM · #8
Originally posted by Qiki:
Am I the only person here who feels a little morally uncomfortable about shots of the homeless etc being displayed for purely 'artistic' reasons?


Yeah, Jo's an artist not a politician.
10/08/2006 08:26:43 AM · #9
Originally posted by Ennil:
Originally posted by Qiki:
Am I the only person here who feels a little morally uncomfortable about shots of the homeless etc being displayed for purely 'artistic' reasons?


Yeah, Jo's an artist not a politician.


For the third time, please allow me to reiterate that I am not attacking Joey or any other individual. I am merely posing a moral question. However, in answer to your comment I would ask whether being an 'artist' exempts one from acting ethically any more that being a politician does?
 10/08/2006 08:37:34 AM · #10
Originally posted by Qiki:
Originally posted by Ennil:
Originally posted by Qiki:
Am I the only person here who feels a little morally uncomfortable about shots of the homeless etc being displayed for purely 'artistic' reasons?


Yeah, Jo's an artist not a politician.


For the third time, please allow me to reiterate that I am not attacking Joey or any other individual. I am merely posing a moral question. However, in answer to your comment I would ask whether being an 'artist' exempts one from acting ethically any more that being a politician does?


I know but I just wanted to say that. :P

And yeah I mean if that certain artist doesn't want to get mixed in all that. Usually when an artist strats playing the role of a politician using his or her pictures, it becomes propaganda. I don't mean that's bad but it stops being street or documentary photography and enters a whole new genre.
 10/08/2006 08:44:56 AM · #11
Originally posted by Qiki:
[quote=Ennil] [quote=Qiki] Am I the only person here who feels a little morally uncomfortable about shots of the homeless etc being displayed for purely 'artistic' reasons?


Viewed from another perspective, one might ask which is worst... engaging in this type of activity where one can interact with these hapless and downtrodden souls and perhaps make a small and positive change in their lives..
or... viewing them with derision and disdain, and completely ignoring their squalid existence.

The issues at hand are something that cannot be resolved by individuals on this site. While I can truly appreciate your concern, there truly is NO moral perspective to be attributed to the photograper in this instance, as he is simply the recorder of this conundrum, not the cause.

Just another man's view.

Ray

Message edited by author 2006-10-08 09:23:12.
 10/08/2006 09:10:31 AM · #12
Originally posted by Qiki:
Am I the only person here who feels a little morally uncomfortable about shots of the homeless etc being displayed for purely 'artistic' reasons?

Now if the shots were taken with the intention of trying to help remedy the problem of homelesness, then I guess I would feel somewhat differently. But to take the shot with a view to using it for something as trivial as entering/posting it here.....I don't know. I completely respect the opinions of those who might disagree with me, but to me there are some ethical issues to be considered.

Incidentally, I'm not having a go at you personally Joey. You're not the first person to post such pics on here, and I'm sure you won't be the last.

Qiki.


ethical issues? Leave your liberalism out of this.
 10/08/2006 09:26:31 AM · #13
Originally posted by KevinG:
ethical issues? Leave your liberalism out of this.


Surely you aren't suggesting that the "Conservative" elements of our society are ..."Without ethics" !!! :O)

Ray
 10/08/2006 09:52:57 AM · #14
Photographs and photography can serve to educate and change lives. Some people have a moral responsibility to report human rights and human wrongs to the world to prevent such attrocities reoccuring.

RE James Natchwey's quote:

"I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

Some people exploit such sorrow.

Personally I like to capture people in their best light which seems to be what Joey is trying to do here by engaging his subjects but I'd be interested to know how the photographer (Joey) feels in this case.
 10/08/2006 09:55:35 AM · #15
I like the fact that Joey went up and talked to these guys and got to know them before taking their pictures. I didn't use a 300mm lens and shoot from across the street ... that would have been cold and heartless and the images would not have reflected the warmth and personality that he has managed to display here.

In my opinion, he has done a great service for these people by showing that they are people too... not just the nameless forgotten of the world.

10/08/2006 04:16:09 PM · #16
My thoughts - who cares what people do to homeless people. They didn't have the self respect to help themselves their entire life; so they don't command respect or positive attention now. Of course I'm speaking in general terms. You can't "exploit" a homeless person by taking their picture. Some people physically and mentally abuse homeless people, which is wrong on every level, but in general homeless people don't deserve to be respected or taken care of.

I feel sorry for homeless people. I feel sorry that they weren't taught how to be successful and that they don't have a drive to make themselves successful people. However, the cold hard truth of the matter is that people have been looking for a way to end poverty in developed countries for hundreds of years and they continue to pass up the one sure way.

I know how to end poverty. You stop feeding it.

Message edited by author 2006-10-08 16:17:48.
 10/08/2006 04:29:25 PM · #17
Originally posted by KevinG:
My thoughts - who cares what people do to homeless people. They didn't have the self respect to help themselves their entire life; so they don't command respect or positive attention now. Of course I'm speaking in general terms. You can't "exploit" a homeless person by taking their picture. Some people physically and mentally abuse homeless people, which is wrong on every level, but in general homeless people don't deserve to be respected or taken care of.

I feel sorry for homeless people. I feel sorry that they weren't taught how to be successful and that they don't have a drive to make themselves successful people. However, the cold hard truth of the matter is that people have been looking for a way to end poverty in developed countries for hundreds of years and they continue to pass up the one sure way.

I know how to end poverty. You stop feeding it.


OMG.... I might need time to reflect on what you just said. I read it, but Im still not sure what you mean really..
 10/08/2006 04:31:52 PM · #18
...

Message edited by author 2006-10-08 16:34:53.
 10/08/2006 04:33:24 PM · #19
Qiki I thought you brought up an excellent moral question and I get it that you didn't mean to cause hate and discontent. Apparently some don't get it.

KevinG You are totally uneducated and unaware if you think that homeless people were always that way and don't try to get out of their situation. Apparantly you are one of those people who throw stones. I hope that you never have a tragedy occur to put you on the streets. I happen to know there are quite a few people who are homeless who try desparately to get out of their situation and only for survival do they take anything from anyone because they had too much pride to prevent decline to the point where they couldn't get out. There are families living on the beach in Hawaii and both parents have jobs and the children are all in school but, they cannot afford even to rent a home. The best they can do is survive. So don't put them down and belittle or berate them until you get out there like Joey has and get to know them.

Sorry guys I was just watching but Kevin hit a chord with me so I had to reply.

Sheryll
 10/08/2006 04:34:58 PM · #20
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by KevinG:
ethical issues? Leave your liberalism out of this.


Surely you aren't suggesting that the "Conservative" elements of our society are ..."Without ethics" !!! :O)

Ray


ROFLMAO! Classic!
 10/08/2006 04:39:12 PM · #21
Originally posted by KevinG:
My thoughts - who cares what people do to homeless people. They didn't have the self respect to help themselves their entire life; so they don't command respect or positive attention now. Of course I'm speaking in general terms. You can't "exploit" a homeless person by taking their picture. Some people physically and mentally abuse homeless people, which is wrong on every level, but in general homeless people don't deserve to be respected or taken care of.

I feel sorry for homeless people. I feel sorry that they weren't taught how to be successful and that they don't have a drive to make themselves successful people. However, the cold hard truth of the matter is that people have been looking for a way to end poverty in developed countries for hundreds of years and they continue to pass up the one sure way.

I know how to end poverty. You stop feeding it.


I'd ask whether or not you feel sorry for the mentally ill, including war veterans suffering from PTSD who are unable to make it in regular society and do not have access to the care and medications that could change their lives. But based on this post; I suspect that you may also fall into this category.
 10/08/2006 04:46:01 PM · #22
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Originally posted by KevinG:
My thoughts - who cares what people do to homeless people. They didn't have the self respect to help themselves their entire life; so they don't command respect or positive attention now. Of course I'm speaking in general terms. You can't "exploit" a homeless person by taking their picture. Some people physically and mentally abuse homeless people, which is wrong on every level, but in general homeless people don't deserve to be respected or taken care of.

I feel sorry for homeless people. I feel sorry that they weren't taught how to be successful and that they don't have a drive to make themselves successful people. However, the cold hard truth of the matter is that people have been looking for a way to end poverty in developed countries for hundreds of years and they continue to pass up the one sure way.

I know how to end poverty. You stop feeding it.


I'd ask whether or not you feel sorry for the mentally ill, including war veterans suffering from PTSD who are unable to make it in regular society and do not have access to the care and medications that could change their lives. But based on this post; I suspect that you may also fall into this category.


You obviously need to work on your reading comprehension skills. www.dictionary.com - look up the phrase "in general" and let me know what you come up with.

Message edited by author 2006-10-08 16:46:23.
 10/08/2006 05:00:57 PM · #23
Originally posted by Sheryll:
Qiki I thought you brought up an excellent moral question and I get it that you didn't mean to cause hate and discontent. Apparently some don't get it.


Apparently.

Originally posted by Sheryll:
KevinG You are totally uneducated and unaware if you think that homeless people were always that way and don't try to get out of their situation.


So I'm uneducated because I have an opinion different than yours? I believe they call this belief "ignorance." I also direct you to www.dictionary.com to look up the phrase "in general" so we can stop talking about the "specifics" of a "generalized" statement.

Originally posted by Sheryll:
Apparantly you are one of those people who throw stones.


So you are implying that I would physically abuse a homeless person? I find that offensive.

Originally posted by Sheryll:
I hope that you never have a tragedy occur to put you on the streets.


I hope that you look up the statistics of homeless people so you can be educated on the fact that very few were put there because of a "tragedy"

Originally posted by Sheryll:
I happen to know there are quite a few people who are homeless who try desparately to get out of their situation and only for survival do they take anything from anyone because they had too much pride to prevent decline to the point where they couldn't get out.


Lets try to avoid the run-on sentences, it causes confusion that makes debate very difficult. What you "happen to know" is far different from the statistics which say there are more than "quite a few" people who are homeless for reasons you fail to acknowledge.

Originally posted by Sheryll:
There are families living on the beach in Hawaii and both parents have jobs and the children are all in school but, they cannot afford even to rent a home. The best they can do is survive. So don't put them down and belittle or berate them until you get out there like Joey has and get to know them.


So we should feel sorry for them because they can't rent a home? Perhaps we should feel sorry for the kids who are growing up under irresponsible parenting; your energy would be far better spent with this type of belief. The real question here is why do they have children if they can't afford to rent a home?[quote]

Originally posted by Sheryll:
Sorry guys I was just watching but Kevin hit a chord with me so I had to reply.

Sheryll


You are obviously blinded from reality by your compassion. You can't "give" to people who can't "get" themselves and expect them to change. If you give a man a fish he'll eat for a day right? Teach him how to fish...

Homeless people IN GENERAL do not know how to be successful. Handouts aren't getting them anywhere, no matter how good they make YOU feel.

10/08/2006 05:11:57 PM · #24
Originally posted by KevinG:
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Originally posted by KevinG:
My thoughts - who cares what people do to homeless people. They didn't have the self respect to help themselves their entire life; so they don't command respect or positive attention now. Of course I'm speaking in general terms. You can't "exploit" a homeless person by taking their picture. Some people physically and mentally abuse homeless people, which is wrong on every level, but in general homeless people don't deserve to be respected or taken care of.

I feel sorry for homeless people. I feel sorry that they weren't taught how to be successful and that they don't have a drive to make themselves successful people. However, the cold hard truth of the matter is that people have been looking for a way to end poverty in developed countries for hundreds of years and they continue to pass up the one sure way.

I know how to end poverty. You stop feeding it.


I'd ask whether or not you feel sorry for the mentally ill, including war veterans suffering from PTSD who are unable to make it in regular society and do not have access to the care and medications that could change their lives. But based on this post; I suspect that you may also fall into this category.


You obviously need to work on your reading comprehension skills. www.dictionary.com - look up the phrase "in general" and let me know what you come up with.


My reading comprehension skills are quite good, thank you. I understand your meaning of the phrase "in general" I also understand that you have determined who is not deserving of human compassion.

Statistics show that approximately 1/3 of homeless men are vets and at least 70% are substance abusers. Like it or not you can't deprive children of good educations, allow them to be physically and sexually abused, send them off to face the atrocities of war and expect them not to turn to readily available substances to numb their minds. I consider substance abuse an illness. One which could be greatly reduced if treatment programs were made available. I have met formerly homeless people (the type you consider useless) who returned as productive members of society once they were extended a loving and helping hand.

You can stick your idealistic head in the sand as deep as you want; but your butt is still going to know that until people start caring for each other, this country is going to keep going down the crapper.
 10/08/2006 05:26:05 PM · #25
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
My reading comprehension skills are quite good, thank you. I understand your meaning of the phrase "in general" I also understand that you have determined who is not deserving of human compassion.


Good. I'm glad we're on the same page.

Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Statistics show that approximately 1/3 of homeless men are vets


Don't sell yourself short...40% have served in the armed forces, slightly more than 1/3. This doesn't mean that 40% have been to war though, as you will try to use as an argument in the next sentence.

Originally posted by greatandsmall:
and at least 70% are substance abusers.


And this is a reason for why they deserve compassion?

Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Like it or not you can't deprive children of good educations, allow them to be physically and sexually abused, send them off to face the atrocities of war and expect them not to turn to readily available substances to numb their minds.


If the would-be parents had been punished, taught, or coached before they had kids this cycle would slow to a halt. Your entire post is making an argument for treating symptoms instead of treating the disease. I'm trying to make a point for treating the disease and you are trying to send everyone home with a bottle of Motrin.

Originally posted by greatandsmall:
I consider substance abuse an illness. One which could be greatly reduced if treatment programs were made available.


And you make this statement applying that treatment programs are not available when in fact they are widespread and completely accessible throughout the United States.

Originally posted by greatandsmall:
I have met formerly homeless people (the type you consider useless) who returned as productive members of society once they were extended a loving and helping hand.


Liberals talk about "productive members of society." That is offensive to a lot of people. In America we are free. I'm productive for myself, not for you. I have personal responsibility. I'm not your responsibility and you aren't mine. This is the mindset we need to have. Instead, we have people who think in terms of the collective and "if we can just get one more homeless person off drugs and 'producing' for the good of others we'll end up okay." If I was to rehabilitate a homeless person I wouldn't want them to be a productive member of society, I'd want them to be rich.

Originally posted by greatandsmall:
You can stick your idealistic head in the sand as deep as you want; but your butt is still going to know that until people start caring for each other, this country is going to keep going down the crapper.


All this country is about is caring for each other and it's still going down hill. We are drowning in welfare programs and our productivity is sinking with us. When you decide that Motrin isn't going to cure cancer then come find me.
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