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10/01/2006 10:31:18 PM · #1 |
I've noticed that a lot of my favorite shots end up not even making the top 100. This is old news, and there are lots of threads about the taste of DPC voters. What I'm wondering is, am I being too nice when I vote? So often I see a picture get a ribbon that I think is soulless or "so what?" only to find that I myself gave that picture a 6.
I'm part of the problem, danmit!! the focus nazis have no qualms about bombing a picture that's a little soft. the dnmc nazis will do the same if they can't fit the picture into their little box.
So is that it? Do I become an art nazi? Is there such a thing as a GOOD nazi? People here treat "art" as something so esoteric, but what I'm talking about here is... does the picture matter? Does it capture any sort of real feeling? Such things should not be considered esoteric.
So.... no. I don't think there is such a thing as a good nazi (but yes there are good witches). But at the same time, I don't have to give a picture a 6 just because it's "technically good". What does that even mean? What does it mean to light something "well"? According to what criteria? Do you light something well by showing every detail of it? Since when is it considered GOOD to show every detail? Prose and poetry writers don't show every detail. Every detail is BORING. So why am I conning myself into saying something is "technically good"?
Don't you think that if a picture has no soul, no reason for being, I'm allowed to give it a 4? Don't you think I'm being a pansy by giving it a 6? I'm sick of the six. It is better served to photos that fail, but at least try.
So what do you think? 6 for a cheesy sparkly piece of nothing? or 4? 5? 3? What is the score for a photo that you simply find unappealing, even if it reveals the photographer has a certain set of skills (that s/he is clearly not applying properly, in your humble opinion)?
Am I being too nice??
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10/01/2006 10:36:21 PM · #2 |
I think vote what you feel. you average given is fine at 5.8, mine is over 6 and I do feel i'm a bit too nice sometimes but it's not extreme. we all have different tastes the average vote cast is jut that. an average. what most people mostly liked the most.lol don't sway your voted because of statistics or ribbon winners or anything.
hth |
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10/01/2006 10:38:13 PM · #3 |
i don't think you are being to nice. i think you are being equally fair...or at least thats what it sounds like imo! my average vote is over a 6 so i think you just have a different opinion than others!
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10/01/2006 10:41:32 PM · #4 |
| I vote in the range of 1-3 on all photos so that my own entry can hopefully gain an advantage - when you are ugly, just mix with people uglier than you, then you will appear beautiful... OK, gotta admit, that's some mentality there, LOL! |
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10/01/2006 11:02:08 PM · #5 |
Art is a matter of communication; regardless of medium. An artist has something to say. It may not be something that can be verbalized. Nothing says the artist has to have something deep and meaningful to say; something so earth-shakingly profound the viewers life will never be the same after experiencing it. The artist just has to have something to say.
A simple statement, while often not profound, are easier to execute clearly enough for the viewer to receive. The more complex statements become harder to get across without distracting the viewer with added elements -- or perhaps failing to get all parts of the statement communicated clearly so the viewer is left to 'fill in the blanks'.
An image that clearly expresses a deep and meaningful statement might easily rate higher than one that is equally clearly expressed but not as deep and meaningful. But I can't see penalizing an image just because its statement is not deep and meaningful. This is especially true if it is being voted down, not because it failed in some way, but because you wish the artist that attempted the more complex statement had been up to the task.
David
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10/02/2006 09:07:40 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by David.C:
But I can't see penalizing an image just because its statement is not deep and meaningful. This is especially true if it is being voted down, not because it failed in some way, but because you wish the artist that attempted the more complex statement had been up to the task. |
I agree! I'm talking about penalizing a picture that has no statement whatsoever. If you take a picture of a spoon, for example, and that's all it is: a picture of a spoon -- that makes no statement whatsoever. If I want to look at a spoon, I can go to the kitchen and pull one out. But a portrait of a spoon... well that makes a statement. What's the difference? That can be debated. But we intuitively understand why a portrait has a reason to exist. It is capturing a soul, or a spirit, of something. And that's just one example of a picture that has meaning.
I'm still being nicer than many. As proven by scoring patterns, people who see a soft focus picture are doing one of two things, in descending order of cruelty:
1) they are automatically deducting for soft focus
2) they are asking, "is there any reason for this to be in soft focus?"
the kind thing to do, and the equivalent thing to what I am suggesting is:
3) ask "is there any reason this needs to be in SHARP focus?"
In my case, I am not talking about automatic deductions for flashy pictures. What I am talking about is not giving a picture credit simply for being flashy alone.
Just to keep the spotlight on  ursula a little longer... :) ...I am happy that I gave her picture a 6. It deserved at least that much, because it is not merely flashy. The photo has a mood and her impressive technique contributed to that mood.
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10/02/2006 09:14:24 AM · #7 |
| What do you expect? it's a pretty superficial system this anyway. Best to not take voting for art too seriously eh and have fun with it. People seem to like well focussed pictures, its easy to understand..ur sharp! |
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10/02/2006 09:24:04 AM · #8 |
There's a lot of garbage that gets voted up, including a lot of my own. My average vote is nowhere near 6, and these threads always boil down to 'vote how you like', but I do think the people who think that voting should reflect some sort of make-everyone-feel-like-a-winner attitude take the competition out of the competition to a large degree.
In an average challenge, and this is not scientific, my vote breakdown is probably something like this
1/2 - 1% - complete crap
3 - 15% - photos that are poorly taken or processed like crap
4 - 35% - boring photo of something i've seen a hundred times with no major problems
5 - 40% - a nice idea, no problems, something holding it back
6 - 5% - nice idea, well executed, no problems, probably not very original
7/8/9 - 2% - pretty rare. No problems, great idea, not the same old boring stuff, processed well, etc.
10 - 0% - I rarely ever give 10's. I reserve 10's for something that is really original, perfectly put together, avoids whatever trendy processing routine is the current fad, makes me think about something and draw my own conclusions, and makes me wish I could take a shot like that.
Message edited by author 2006-10-02 10:02:29. |
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10/02/2006 09:46:44 AM · #9 |
I believe that DPC is a diverse community and our voting styles are likely to be just as diverse.
I don't think that there is any one scale on which we should all vote. I'm sure that we all have an internal scale with some being biased toward technical and others toward art or other factors that are meainingful to us.
So I say it's not a matter of being nice or not. I think if we're all true to ourselves and apply our own scale consistently that the results will benefit by our diversity.
So go ahead and vote with your own bias. Don't vote in a way that you think others expect you too!
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10/02/2006 09:52:33 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
There's a lot of garbage that gets voted up, including a lot of my own. My average vote is nowhere near 6, and these threads always boil down to 'vote how you like', but I do think the people who think that voting should reflect some sort of make-everyone-feel-like-a-winner attitude take the competition out of the competition to a large degree.
In an average challenge, and this is not scientific, my vote breakdown is probably something like this
1/2 - 1% - complete shit
3 - 15% - photos that are poorly taken or processed like crap
4 - 35% - boring photo of something i've seen a hundred times with no major problems
5 - 40% - a nice idea, no problems, something holding it back
6 - 5% - nice idea, well executed, no problems, probably not very original
7/8/9 - 2% - pretty rare. No problems, great idea, not the same old boring shit, processed well, etc.
10 - 0% - I rarely ever give 10's. I reserve 10's for something that is really original, perfectly put together, avoids whatever trendy processing routine is the current fad, makes me think about something and draw my own conclusions, and makes me wish I could take a shot like that. |
That's pretty close to how I vote...well put together, apart from the swearing :-(
Message edited by author 2006-10-02 09:53:16.
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10/02/2006 10:01:56 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by "hotpasta":
well put together, apart from the swearing |
It's Monday morning!
(ok I went back and censored myself) |
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10/02/2006 10:25:46 AM · #12 |
I call soul-less images "commodity images". To me, a perfect up-front idea-less in-focus shot of a butterfly, sunset, or a droplet of water on a strand of grass, etc., is just one in an infinite line-up. Sometimes I even *like* to see one, since the image may depict a beatiful subject. But then it doesn't matter to me whether I see one by Bob or Fred. Seeing one is really no more significant to me than frying an egg in the morning.
As such, commodity photographs, have very little worth. I routinely give fours to such pretty, perfectly executed, technically flawless images. Technical mastership is important in photography, but it is neither sufficient, nor required to "make" a photograph. And I am often thinking that even a four is too much to give for them. |
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10/02/2006 11:00:54 AM · #13 |
"does the picture matter? Does it capture any sort of real feeling? "
How about posting some examples of photographs "that matter" or have "real feeling" from the current challenge results (abstract, leading lines, electricity)? |
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10/02/2006 11:02:37 AM · #14 |
Avg Vote Cast: 6.3560
we're sitting in the same boat. very very hard for me to go below a 4. We're just nice I guess..
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10/02/2006 11:21:44 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by maryba:
"does the picture matter? Does it capture any sort of real feeling? "
How about posting some examples of photographs "that matter" or have "real feeling" from the current challenge results (abstract, leading lines, electricity)? |
Okay, but just to clarify, these are examples of photos that matter to me and create real feeling in me. Yes, this is subjective, but not completely undermined by relativism, because I can explain why each picture matters, and what feeling it evokes.
Here are my lowest scoring 10s from lines and abstract (I didn't vote in electricity). You can see my reasons in the comment I gave each picture.
But there are *lots* of examples, including anything I give a 7 or above, and many of my 6s and some of my 5s. To truly complete the picture, I'd have to provide examples of pictures that don't matter, that mean nothing, that have no feeling. But I don't want to publicly pick on anybody.
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10/03/2006 04:33:31 AM · #16 |
Dear Posthumous,
I am so very GRATEFUL that you posted this thread. As a new member to this community, one of my biggest personal challenges has been on how to vote in the appropriate spirit of the challenge!!! Apparently, this process is somewhat akin to the secrets of the Ancient Egyptians!!! In other words, I don't have a clue and neither to ALOT of people.
I have already been labelled as a "liberal" voter who "overinflates" the voting process and people actually requested that I vote on their pictures to raise their scores!!! YIKES. My intentions were TOTALLY misinterpreted. I already stated my voting system in a different thread so no need to repeat the obvious, but I will tell you that I've stated my "guns" and will probably stick to them.
So, I am guilty as charged. I am TOO nice (in my voting that is ).
However, I have to ask myself...on the scale of voting where I give mostly 6,7, & 8's and others give 4,5, or 6's...is my vote (or your vote) a trustyworthy source of information to the artist? In a field of 300 photos, where each photo contains 200 votes or more, I am not arrogant enough to assume that my vote carries that much weight or relevance. My vote is somewhere lost in that average, and something called "vote scrubbing" is available to clean my vote away. (I'm still learning about that?!!!)
In the process of education, I have discovered the value of the COMMENT. If even ONE person comments in a way that is relevant to my development as a photographer, I promise you I will weigh that person's words very carefully. Afterall, their time is valuable to leave the comment in the first place! If even ONE person "gets" my photo (i.e. abstract macro...THANK YOU, Justine!), I am more thrilled than the actual overall average score that I received (not thrilling).
I don't value the system of "competition" in terms is your horse faster than mine? I'm sure it is. However, I value the level of education that each challenge brings to me and ultimately to us all. (And, in the process, I've definitely learned the hard way the purpose of the "unsubmit" button before it is too late (i.e unrelatedness...YIKES!!))
The BIGGEST lesson I have learned here is the generousity in spirit on DPC not particularly in voting, but in the high quality of the photos, the tutorials, the people who so very generously volunteer their time in the critique process (THANK YOU, the Saj!!!)and the warm welcome I have received by such talents as SHERPET!! And, the technical help from commentors like Lesgainous who comment with helpful detail (yes, I've learned to RESIZE), support that comment with an appropriate score, and do it directly without a BAG over their heads. Posthumous, you have a wonderful command and deep appreciation of the English language which I admire and hope to incorporate more into my own style of commenting. For these artists, I have gained respect and trust because you are leaders by example!
For those who have the spirit of competition, ME TOO!!! I invite you to burn me at the stake and use my photo to do it! However, please do it respectfully and help me grow, and I will commit to do the same for you. So, if I err on the side of "being too nice," I do it with the recoqnition of everyone's effort and difference in perspective and hope you recoqnize the innocence of that spirit.
I felt inspired by your portfolio, Posthumous, because of the wide variety of challenges entered and scores within it and the BEAUTY of your photos. I love Wordsworth too...:-)
Well, hope for a ribbon lies eternal...but hope for truth rests within.
-Mae aka Hihosilver
Post Script:
I did buy knitting needles today...just in case! ;-) |
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10/03/2006 05:07:52 AM · #17 |
You need to clarify what you mean by "feeling." Feeling has far too many meanings to box up in such a generalized way. I hear this a lot in my area of interest, nature and landscape photography. "It doesn't mean anything." Well, it does to me. It does to all my friends that lug a big 4x5 or 8x10 up an 8-mile, 4000 foot vertical climb trail to get that one shot.
"Feeling" is wholly subjective, and if you feel as though some ribbon winners don't have feeling than you're absolutely justified in voting them however you see fit. It's something else entirely to state that any shot is completely devoid of "feeling" to somebody, though.
Message edited by author 2006-10-03 05:12:14. |
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10/03/2006 05:09:50 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by maryba:
"does the picture matter? Does it capture any sort of real feeling? "
How about posting some examples of photographs "that matter" or have "real feeling" from the current challenge results (abstract, leading lines, electricity)? |
Okay, but just to clarify, these are examples of photos that matter to me and create real feeling in me. Yes, this is subjective, but not completely undermined by relativism, because I can explain why each picture matters, and what feeling it evokes.
Here are my lowest scoring 10s from lines and abstract (I didn't vote in electricity). You can see my reasons in the comment I gave each picture.
But there are *lots* of examples, including anything I give a 7 or above, and many of my 6s and some of my 5s. To truly complete the picture, I'd have to provide examples of pictures that don't matter, that mean nothing, that have no feeling. But I don't want to publicly pick on anybody. |
Feel free to select any of mine to make the comparison if you want. Btw, I can see why you loved those photos. I think they would do much better in the challenges if voters took the time you did to see what was there. However, I can understand why the average voter doesn't do that since there are so many photos to rate in the challenges.
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10/03/2006 05:55:06 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
There's a lot of garbage that gets voted up, including a lot of my own. My average vote is nowhere near 6, and these threads always boil down to 'vote how you like', but I do think the people who think that voting should reflect some sort of make-everyone-feel-like-a-winner attitude take the competition out of the competition to a large degree.
In an average challenge, and this is not scientific, my vote breakdown is probably something like this
1/2 - 1% - complete crap
3 - 15% - photos that are poorly taken or processed like crap
4 - 35% - boring photo of something i've seen a hundred times with no major problems
5 - 40% - a nice idea, no problems, something holding it back
6 - 5% - nice idea, well executed, no problems, probably not very original
7/8/9 - 2% - pretty rare. No problems, great idea, not the same old boring stuff, processed well, etc.
10 - 0% - I rarely ever give 10's. I reserve 10's for something that is really original, perfectly put together, avoids whatever trendy processing routine is the current fad, makes me think about something and draw my own conclusions, and makes me wish I could take a shot like that. |
Thank you SO MUCH for posting this - I'm really new here, and have been voting almost EXACTLY as you've written above, and then because of the current challenges and reading what people are saying I was starting to second guess my system.
Somewhere I read someone saying that you shouldn't give a 1, but I've seen some photos that look like my 3 year old took and not in an 'artistic' way - GRIN! So I've given a few ones and then wondered if I'm the only one who has.
I now feel affirmed and will continue to go with my 'gut' as I've done so far.
Much appreciated. |
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