Sigh...auto tune-ups...feels like rape.

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

08/17/2006 03:30:46 PM · #51

Yes, there is fraud in this industry. Find me one that doesn't.
The auto repair industry has given itself a black eye and yet complains.

For what it's worth, to anyone reading this, here is the best suggestion I have for you:

Find a shop you can take your vehicle to, where you can toss them the keys, hand them a blank check and say "take care of it". If it means you have to drive a hour to get there and wait, do it. It will pay off in the long run. Most of my customers do just that, some driving from as far away as L.A. (120 miles). It's about trust - once you find it - DON'T leave it, and the auto industry is NOT one to price shop. If you were buying a 6-pack of Pepsi, by all means shop the lowest price.

Another useful bit of info:
You do NOT have to take your vehicles to the dealer in order to maintain the conditions of your lease, regular or extended warranties.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

08/17/2006 03:31:14 PM · #52

Originally posted by MQuinn:

...they have there some of the BEST hybrid experts!

What did they cross-breed to get these hybrid experts? ;-)

saracat

Pentax K10D

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

08/17/2006 03:38:10 PM · #53

Wow - reading this has meade me really glad that I've got TWO very honest, reputable, and reasonable mechanics that I can trust that are less than 30 minutes from where I live...

Example - had a 1980 Mercury Grand Marquis (I know, not too expensive a car to work on) that would not run right. Sputtered, carried on, no power, wouldn't pull a hill to save it's life. Hubby's a pretty good jack-leg mechanic, but after spending better than 12 hours trying to figure the darned thing out, he took it to our mechanic (Robin Finley) out in Dacusville (SC). Robin had the car for maybe three days, fixed it, and charged us $25.

As far as what was wrong with it, the timing was screwed beyond recognition. All Robin did was to put the distributor in 180 degrees out, and change the spark plugs that had been fouled out. Stupid car ran like a dream after that...

Just makes me glad I don't have to worry about getting "screwed" - no "extra" work done, no "this might be what's wrong so we'll go ahead and replace that, even though we're not sure what it is", no padding the bill with extra hours... I LIKE my mechanics!!

08/17/2006 03:42:02 PM · #54

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by MQuinn:
...they have there some of the BEST hybrid experts!

What did they cross-breed to get these hybrid experts? ;-)

Actually one of my good friends works at that dealership, He was showing us some of his Scope captures off Toyota hybrids of different systems during an Auto tech get together last July. Amazing technoligy is coming down the pipe!

08/17/2006 03:48:01 PM · #55

Originally posted by BradP:

Another useful bit of info:
You do NOT have to take your vehicles to the dealer in order to maintain the conditions of your lease, regular or extended warranties.

That's a good tip Brad. I wasn't quite sure what the bottom line was there.

I'm certainly not trying to besmirch the whole auto mechanic industry. It's just the feeling of helplessness that leads to the frustration. I may wind up looking over the list and ordering a la carte and seeing if that saves some $$$ where I'm willing to do the rest myself.

08/17/2006 03:51:34 PM · #56

I have some pretty good pictures of stuff "people did it themselves" :)

08/17/2006 03:53:17 PM · #57

The manufacturer's recommended maintenance MUST BE done in order to maintain the conditions of a lease agreement, manufacturer's warranty and/or extended warranty. Just needs to be done, on time, using the right parts, right fluids, and documented. Using 10W-40 oil in a vehicle calling for 5W-20 can void a warranty - and can get VERY expensive.

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED

08/17/2006 03:55:28 PM · #58

I like the saying I have posted on the wall at my shop:

Fuel for the Trip to Grandmas house - $80

Disney movie for the kids to watch during the trip - $14.95

The piece of mind knowing your car was throughly looked over by a professional with years of experience - Priceless

Pedro

Nikon D200

08/17/2006 04:02:40 PM · #59

I'd take my car to BradP if he weren't an international border and 1500 miles away.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/17/2006 04:09:48 PM · #60

Originally posted by MQuinn:

I like the saying I have posted on the wall at my shop:

When I took a printing class, they had a sample "shop rates" sign too (amounts approximate) ...

Shop Rates:
Standard Labor: $25/hour
If Customer Watches: $50/hr
If Customer Offers Advice: $100/hour
If Customer Helps: $200/hour

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

08/17/2006 04:28:50 PM · #61

and $300 If the customer tried to fix it and screwed it up

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

08/17/2006 06:01:22 PM · #62

Cost of oil change

08/17/2006 06:28:12 PM · #63

Originally posted by Melethia:

Cost of oil change

I just asked a coworker. Does it really cost $42 to change your oil? (I'm talking walk-out, bottom line price).

Man, maybe I'm just cheap. But I sorta wear that as a badge of honor.

08/17/2006 06:37:12 PM · #64

My lowest oil change runs $34 here. Some get over $100 (synthetic).
Then again, I use the best oil & filters I can get, not the cheapest.

08/17/2006 06:43:01 PM · #65

Originally posted by BradP:

My lowest oil change runs $34 here. Some get over $100 (synthetic).
Then again, I use the best oil & filters I can get, not the cheapest.

I get the best oil and filters I can at Schucks for about $12...

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

Sigma 28-70mm f/2.8 EX DG for Pentax

08/17/2006 06:48:03 PM · #66

I'm reasonably intelligent and somewhat capable. I'm sure if I wanted to I could change my own oil. But I'd have to buy all the tools, and I'd have to find the recycle place and ... and..

So I go to Jiffy Lube every 3000 miles, spend 15 minutes balancing my checkbook or reading the paper, pay the guys (and get my 10% discount) and drive away with fresh oil, a new filter, air in my tires AND clean windshields.

Leok

Pentax K10D

08/17/2006 06:50:24 PM · #67

[rant]
Personally, I stay away from car dealerships when it comes to servicing cars, or anyone that charges like them...

Its not just that they charge too much for basic stuff its also their habit of doing unnecessary work. To top it all off quality control is often woeful. There may be some good dealer mechanics out there but they are few and far between.

My favourite story: My wife bought a brand new Mazda. All the Japanese stuff ran beautifully. We took it in for its free 1000km service (I did pay for new oil & filter). When I picked it up from them, the car drove like a dog. I took it round the block, parked back in front of the dealer and asked them what was going on and why they hadn't picked it up when they test drove it. Their answer - "We don't test drive customers cars for insurance reasons". I had already figured out the brakes were dragging from the way it drove... negligent IMHO. I had previously had to return the car to the dealer at 500km as the passenger footwell was wet from ice cold water leaking from the dealer fitted airconditioning...

A few weeks later Mazda's head office sent out the customer satisfaction survey, I had great pleasure filling it in. Despite this the same dealer won the "Mazda best customer service of the year award". If thats the best, what is the worst like???

These dealerships are generally 50% manned by first year apprentices. Many leave after one year - some decide not to be mechanics, others go to work for other mechanics. There are also quite a number of second and third year mechanics - meaning there are very few experienced guys to teach and supervise. I know this as I worked for a dealership (as a salesperson) for a year or so. This means they pay their mechanics low wages as most are apprentices despite charging the customer the highest hourly rates in the industry. They have a budget to meet and will do whatever it takes to meet it - their jobs depend on PROFIT not quality. If they have to redo a job they almost always get paid for it - either by the customer ("this xxx needs replacing too") or by the manufacturer as a warranty claim so the incentive to get it right the first time is not there.

Their habit of charging an hourly rate for each and every part they change is also morally wrong. e.g. my parents were charged 15 mins labour for changing 3 globes in the tail lights, two of which were in the same light. I am confident all three were done in less than five minutes. They charged for 10 times as much time. Honest mechanics do not do this.
[/rant]

I suggest you ask your friends, neighbours and relatives who they use. My mechanic charges $99 for a "major service" on most 4 cylinder vehicles...

08/17/2006 07:27:40 PM · #68

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by BradP:
My lowest oil change runs $34 here. Some get over $100 (synthetic).
Then again, I use the best oil & filters I can get, not the cheapest.

I get the best oil and filters I can at Schucks for about $12...

Personally I have never step foot in a Schucks/Champion/Kragen auto part store, or have ever gotten parts there. Im sure you can find oil filter/oil for alot less. Then again Im not the one gambling on with a $25,000 Vehicle with questionable grades of oil, and who knows what type of filtration media Filters. Not to mention what oil pressures they best filter at. I tend to side with the engineers that built to a certain spec using certain parts. So if you want to use the generic this filter fits 10 different makes of cars, and all 5w-30 oil is the same, go for it.

08/17/2006 07:35:40 PM · #69

Originally posted by MQuinn:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by BradP:
My lowest oil change runs $34 here. Some get over $100 (synthetic).
Then again, I use the best oil & filters I can get, not the cheapest.

I get the best oil and filters I can at Schucks for about $12...

Personally I have never step foot in a Schucks/Champion/Kragen auto part store, or have ever gotten parts there. Im sure you can find oil filter/oil for alot less. Then again Im not the one gambling on with a $25,000 Vehicle with questionable grades of oil, and who knows what type of filtration media Filters. Not to mention what oil pressures they best filter at. I tend to side with the engineers that built to a certain spec using certain parts. So if you want to use the generic this filter fits 10 different makes of cars, and all 5w-30 oil is the same, go for it.

So wait, you are telling me that Fram or Purolator or whatever filters aren't necessarily up to snuff?

I just called Jiffy-Lube and supposedly it's $25 to change the oil in my Toyota. That's fairly reasonable if I can only do it for $15. But I doubt the oil or filter are any different than I'd get at a car parts store...

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

08/17/2006 07:38:49 PM · #70

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I just called Jiffy-Lube and supposedly it's $25 to change the oil in my Toyota. That's fairly reasonable if I can only do it for $15. But I doubt the oil or filter are any different than I'd get at a car parts store...

Is the time it would take you to do it yourself worth the $10? And do you have to pay recycling fees for the used oil?

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/17/2006 07:42:23 PM · #71

Originally posted by MQuinn:

Then again Im not the one gambling on with a $25,000 Vehicle with questionable grades of oil, and who knows what type of filtration media Filters.

Hell, in today's market that $25k vehicle is a throwaway vehicle :-)

I once had a 240D Mercedes (loved that car) and I did an analysis on the resale value as projected over the following few years vs the cost of maintenance, and I decided to run that sucker into the ground. Once I made that decision, I did NO maintenance other than lube/oil change and the danged thing kept running fine for FOUR MORE YEARS. And this was at about 50k miles per year... When I got my BMW 328is I sold the 240D for $1,200. Book was $1,600 at the time. My savings over "recommended maintenance" was very substantial. But then, that was a diesel...

R.

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

08/17/2006 07:44:01 PM · #72

A couple things to keep in mind:

We can all cite great experiences and horrible experiences in this area, just as we can in most any service or retail-related industries. Generally speaking, independant shops are the best value for the dollar, as they have less overhead and can operate on a personal basis. Not everyone, everywhere has their hand out for doing small tasks, such as fixing a flat, or changing lightbulbs, but what if they did that 30 times a day - eventually they will go out of business. Don't begrudge anyone from making a living, but there is also a fine line between goodwill and losing one's butt in business. A shop owner, asking his technician to go out and do small tasks many many times a day without pay isn't fair to the technician, as he/she needs to make a living too.

What it costs to do something needs to be compared apples to apples, as one shop doing a quick oil change that doesn't include checking all fluids and tire pressures is certainly not going to be the same as one that does, and uses factory parts. Very much a "you get what you pay for" industry.

When comparing prices, geographic location and cost of living plays a huge influence. A shop labor rate could be $35/Hr to $150/Hr depending on where you live.

Message edited by author 2006-08-17 19:44:33.

Dr.Confuser

Nikon D800

08/17/2006 07:48:06 PM · #73

Originally posted by BradP:

Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:

Once had some non-waranty maintenance done on my wife's volvo. Each procedure had a "shop time" multiplied by a "shop rate." The only problem was that the sum of the shop times added up to longer than they had the car. I complained and they reduced the bill to something I thought was fair. Don't know if Subaru does this but if so, try doing the math and see if you have a basis for a complaint.

This is what is known as the flat-rate system.
A task is checked in the estimating guide and shows it to be a 2 hour job. The Technician assigned to do it is VERY quick in his work, has done this same task 4x a week for the last 6 months, and knows how to do it in 1 hour, without being unsafe or causing other problems. Technician get s paid 2 hours of work for 1 hour spent - it's his reward for being productive and learning his job well. Customer pays the 2 hours labor fee, even if it was only worked on for 1 hour.

The shop labor rate is based on what it needs in order to pay it's overhead, insurance, permits, hazmat, etc.
Don't look at it as an hourly rate, look at it the labor rate.

The labor charges on a job are a FEE for doing a certain service/job, based on nationally-accepted times to do that service/job.

I'm not trying to bust your chop or anything. We're just having a reasonable discussion with several points of view. I am a businessman and I understand the dynamics of cost and price.

But if the standard is wrong, let's change the standard. If a competant mechanic can do a task in two hours, let's not set the standard at 3 so we can hire less competant mechanics to do the job and still come out okay, okay? It creates conflicting incentives to do that. And pushes up the price, which tends to drive business elsewhere.

And if you are going to set a standard price based on an inflated labor standard, maybe you shouldn't break out labor and parts separately. Just a flat $450 for 30,000 mile service ... whether it takes 3 hours or 6. Take it or leave it. Not necessarily recommending this, but it might influence the trust thing. Just a thought.

08/17/2006 07:48:48 PM · #74

I agree with Matt.
I use factory oil filters and Castrol GTX oil, as they are the best I can buy. I'm not doing any favors for my customers by cutting corners on quality. I personally have cut open many, many oil filters and have been shocked to see what little there is inside of them.

For once, I can honestly say I like the saying "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later". I really does ring true, though I won't put myself in the position of saying it by cutting corners to make a sale. I'll turn away work before I lower my standards.