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08/17/2006 02:23:02 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by strangeghost:
Not to trash the thread, but have you ever been raped? |
that seems like an awful personal question to ask a man in public...
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08/17/2006 02:26:26 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by BradP:
As someone that does this line of work daily (no - not rotating lugnuts..) & owns a shop, I can assure you that some of the modern vehicles are VERY difficult to service, require equipment & tools that run into 4 figures, and having software to keep up on the repair and service info.
Got a F150/250/Expedition/Explorer with a V-8? How about around $350 JUST to change the spark plugs - I'm serious! |
Same Here, its funny how people think they are getting the screw when it come to auto repair, yet they don't realize a 'single' OEM scan tool $4500 + updates/software is $1200/per year and thats just for one make!
Heck just my generic info Alldata subscription is $185 a month. |
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08/17/2006 02:30:00 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Hey Brad, how much is a tune-up and oil change on a Cummins diesel? It only has 2000 mi on it and doesn't need it, I'm just curious. |
No idea.
I don't work on diesels at all, but there is no "tune-up" on a diesel - at least not in the conventional use of the phrase. |
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08/17/2006 02:35:16 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
$450 for a 30,000 mile tune-up of a 2004 Subaru? Even after the long list of what "gets done" it sounds like a glorified oil change to me. Oh wait! I get spark plugs and an air filter!
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This is off a Suburu Forester F4-2.5L SOHC Factory manual:
Air Filter Element Replace
Brake Fluid Replace
Brake Hose/Line Inspect
Clutch, M/T Inspect
Constant Velocity Joint Boot Inspect
Coolant Replace
Cooling System Inspect
Drive Belt Inspect
Drum Brake System Inspect
Engine Oil Replace Replace
Fluid - A/T Inspect
Fluid - Differential Inspect
Fluid - M/T Inspect
Fuel Filter Replace
Fuel Supply Line Inspect
Oil Filter, Engine Replace
Parking Brake System Inspect
Spark Plug Replace
Steering and Suspension Inspect
Timing Belt Inspect
Funny thing is $450 is exactly what it cost me to go to the doctor to have an ear infection check out. 15 minutes and a perscription amoxicillin later. |
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08/17/2006 02:37:56 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by BradP:
As someone that does this line of work daily (no - not rotating lugnuts..) & owns a shop, I can assure you that some of the modern vehicles are VERY difficult to service, require equipment & tools that run into 4 figures, and having software to keep up on the repair and service info.
Got a F150/250/Expedition/Explorer with a V-8? How about around $350 JUST to change the spark plugs - I'm serious! |
I'd add my Ranger to that list. Ridiculous where they put the plugs closest to the firewall. Every other car I owned prior required nothing more than a socket wrench and ten minutes. I just pray I don't snap the top of the plug off or lose a finger while trying to persuade it to come out. One would think they could position parts that will require changing in a way a person could get to them without having to remove all sorts of parts that don't require maintenance. |
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08/17/2006 02:41:27 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
Once had some non-waranty maintenance done on my wife's volvo. Each procedure had a "shop time" multiplied by a "shop rate." The only problem was that the sum of the shop times added up to longer than they had the car. I complained and they reduced the bill to something I thought was fair. Don't know if Subaru does this but if so, try doing the math and see if you have a basis for a complaint. |
This is what is known as the flat-rate system.
A task is checked in the estimating guide and shows it to be a 2 hour job. The Technician assigned to do it is VERY quick in his work, has done this same task 4x a week for the last 6 months, and knows how to do it in 1 hour, without being unsafe or causing other problems. Technician get s paid 2 hours of work for 1 hour spent - it's his reward for being productive and learning his job well. Customer pays the 2 hours labor fee, even if it was only worked on for 1 hour.
The shop labor rate is based on what it needs in order to pay it's overhead, insurance, permits, hazmat, etc.
Don't look at it as an hourly rate, look at it the labor rate.
The labor charges on a job are a FEE for doing a certain service/job, based on nationally-accepted times to do that service/job. |
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08/17/2006 02:48:12 PM · #32 |
I have a hybrid -- no way am I gonna even think about messing around with the power plant on that. I have a dealer six blocks from my house, and part of what might seem like "excessive" charges actually pay off in convenience -- so far, they've had the work done on-time, and they have a shuttle so I can be elsewhere while they work on it.
I have a 60,000 mile service coming in a few months, and I expect it will cost a few hundred bucks ... but the car will be running. |
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08/17/2006 02:50:20 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
Once had some non-waranty maintenance done on my wife's volvo. Each procedure had a "shop time" multiplied by a "shop rate." The only problem was that the sum of the shop times added up to longer than they had the car. I complained and they reduced the bill to something I thought was fair. Don't know if Subaru does this but if so, try doing the math and see if you have a basis for a complaint. |
This is what is known as the flat-rate system.
A task is checked in the estimating guide and shows it to be a 2 hour job. The Technician assigned to do it is VERY quick in his work, has done this same task 4x a week for the last 6 months, and knows how to do it in 1 hour, without being unsafe or causing other problems. Technician get s paid 2 hours of work for 1 hour spent - it's his reward for being productive and learning his job well. Customer pays the 2 hours labor fee, even if it was only worked on for 1 hour.
The shop labor rate is based on what it needs in order to pay it's overhead, insurance, permits, hazmat, etc.
Don't look at it as an hourly rate, look at it the labor rate.
The labor charges on a job are a FEE for doing a certain service/job, based on nationally-accepted times to do that service/job. |
so if the mechanic took an hour longer would they charge you for the extra hour then? I bet they would, in which case the consumer is the one getting screwed either way you look at it. |
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08/17/2006 02:50:52 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I have a hybrid -- no way am I gonna even think about messing around with the power plant on that. I have a dealer six blocks from my house, and part of what might seem like "excessive" charges actually pay off in convenience -- so far, they've had the work done on-time, and they have a shuttle so I can be elsewhere while they work on it.
I have a 60,000 mile service coming in a few months, and I expect it will cost a few hundred bucks ... but the car will be running. |
What kinda Hybrid? |
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08/17/2006 02:58:41 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Originally posted by BradP:
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
Once had some non-waranty maintenance done on my wife's volvo. Each procedure had a "shop time" multiplied by a "shop rate." The only problem was that the sum of the shop times added up to longer than they had the car. I complained and they reduced the bill to something I thought was fair. Don't know if Subaru does this but if so, try doing the math and see if you have a basis for a complaint. |
This is what is known as the flat-rate system.
A task is checked in the estimating guide and shows it to be a 2 hour job. The Technician assigned to do it is VERY quick in his work, has done this same task 4x a week for the last 6 months, and knows how to do it in 1 hour, without being unsafe or causing other problems. Technician get s paid 2 hours of work for 1 hour spent - it's his reward for being productive and learning his job well. Customer pays the 2 hours labor fee, even if it was only worked on for 1 hour.
The shop labor rate is based on what it needs in order to pay it's overhead, insurance, permits, hazmat, etc.
Don't look at it as an hourly rate, look at it the labor rate.
The labor charges on a job are a FEE for doing a certain service/job, based on nationally-accepted times to do that service/job. |
so if the mechanic took an hour longer would they charge you for the extra hour then? I bet they would, in which case the consumer is the one getting screwed either way you look at it. |
Once a quote is made and agreed upon, if additional charges are to be made the customer must approve ahead of time or they arent legally obligated to pay the extra charges.
MattO
PS I wont even go into the symantics of the rest of this thread. Being in this business for 17 years and knowing what I spend just to work in it, plus what it costs to be properly tooled and trained as a shop I find that a 30K service at that price is quite a bargain.
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08/17/2006 03:00:58 PM · #36 |
haha, ya, I'm sensitive that people feel like they are getting hosed at the doc's too. I'm not getting anywhere near $450 for 15 minutes though. I'd wager though that I went through far more school than the mechanic who's doing my work. I also doubt they finished their training with $150,000 in loans.
Yes, to whomever questioned my use of the word "rape", I was going with the definition "abusive or improper treatment; violation a rape of justice"
The Subaru Outback maintenance chart does say the plugs need to be replaced every 30k miles....go figure.
Subaru Outback maintenance
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 15:04:26.
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08/17/2006 03:08:17 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
haha, ya, I'm sensitive that people feel like they are getting hosed at the doc's too. I'm not getting anywhere near $450 for 15 minutes though. I'd wager though that I went through far more school than the mechanic who's doing my work. I also doubt they finished their training with $150,000 in loans.
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I wouldnt bet on that if you were at a dealer or a highly qualified Indipendant shop. If you ever want to compare hours of school just let me know. I was required to have 600 to reach the level of certification that I have with Ford and that was achieved in 2001, I have an additional 100+ hours now.
Edit to add. None of that time includes my Technical college hours. Thats strictly FMC training after I was hired.
MattO
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 15:11:55.
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08/17/2006 03:09:54 PM · #38 |
I have found that no matter what the ailment, and no matter what mechanic I take my vehicles to, it seems like the mechanic always wants a minimum of about $350 to $450.
It's as if ... they know what the "threshold of pain" is. They always tell me of "all the other things" that I could do to the car to (which generally take the cost of repairs up to about $800 to $900). I think that after they sticker shock me with that figure, they feel confident that I won't mind paying the $350-$450. And so I do it. Time and time again.
What really kills me is that sometimes I think they sabotage the car because things that weren't wrong before, go wrong not too long after service. I've tried different mechanics. I'm no conspiracy theorist but, geez... it makes me wonder!
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08/17/2006 03:11:42 PM · #39 |
i'll be bitchin about that soon! thanks  travis99
Originally posted by Telehubbie:
Mechanics probably have a forum thread somewhere saying "I paid $2000 for a guy to take pictures at my daughters wedding!!! WTF?!?" ;-) |
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08/17/2006 03:11:58 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by dwterry:
I have found that no matter what the ailment, and no matter what mechanic I take my vehicles to, it seems like the mechanic always wants a minimum of about $350 to $450.
It's as if ... they know what the "threshold of pain" is. They always tell me of "all the other things" that I could do to the car to (which generally take the cost of repairs up to about $800 to $900). I think that after they sticker shock me with that figure, they feel confident that I won't mind paying the $350-$450. And so I do it. Time and time again.
What really kills me is that sometimes I think they sabotage the car because things that weren't wrong before, go wrong not too long after service. I've tried different mechanics. I'm no conspiracy theorist but, geez... it makes me wonder! |
Where you at in Salt Lake Terry? I could give ya a whole list of top notch Repair shops in that area.. |
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08/17/2006 03:13:10 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by MattO:
I wouldnt bet on that if you were at a dealer or a highly qualified Indipendant shop. If you ever want to compare hours of school just let me know. I was required to have 600 to reach the level of certification that I have with Ford and that was achieved in 2001, I have an additional 100+ hours now.
MattO |
Matt, you made me spit my coffee all over the desk!
Let's compare for a moment:
Four year of undergrad
Four years of medical school
Three years of residency
Two years of fellowship.
Total cost $150,000.
Residency was average 60hrs/week alone so that would be 9,000 hours right there (hey! I got two weeks vacation though!)
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 15:13:50.
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08/17/2006 03:13:37 PM · #42 |
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08/17/2006 03:18:11 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by MattO:
I wouldnt bet on that if you were at a dealer or a highly qualified Indipendant shop. If you ever want to compare hours of school just let me know. I was required to have 600 to reach the level of certification that I have with Ford and that was achieved in 2001, I have an additional 100+ hours now.
MattO |
Matt, you made me spit my coffee all over the desk!
Let's compare for a moment:
Four year of undergrad
Four years of medical school
Three years of residency
Two years of fellowship.
Total cost $150,000.
Residency was average 60hrs/week alone so that would be 9,000 hours right there (hey! I got two weeks vacation though!) |
Your a DR? And you complain about a $450 dollar repair for maintenance on your car? For crying out loud your 150K investment will earn you that in one or 2 years? BTW I'm glad I got your keyboard there is more then one DR in this world I'd like to cost money. :-)
Realistically I'd say you got a deal for $450 I wouldnt touch that thing for less then $1k, but that takes into consideration I'd have to touch a foriegn car!
MattO
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08/17/2006 03:19:02 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by MQuinn:
What kinda Hybrid? |
2001 Prius -- I got it used in January, 2005. Just passed 55k driving from Concord to L.A. and back -- 750 miles, 19 gallons, $60, and about 6-1/2 hours each way.
  Why I don't work on cars:  |
Is the dealers name Downtown Auto center? Because they have there some of the BEST hybrid experts! |
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08/17/2006 03:20:17 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Funny thing is $450 is exactly what it cost me to go to the doctor to have an ear infection check out. 15 minutes and a perscription amoxicillin later. |
Well, you're still lucky. My doctor/hospital/ pathologist/anestesologist(sic)/whatever experience back in March was 25,000.
Let's see: A D2X, 600mm super long nikkor,
every other Nikkor on my wish list..................
Maybe I should have just plucked that Gall Bladder myself. ;) |
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08/17/2006 03:20:28 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by dwterry:
What really kills me is that sometimes I think they sabotage the car because things that weren't wrong before, go wrong not too long after service. I've tried different mechanics. I'm no conspiracy theorist but, geez... it makes me wonder! |
Reminds me of the news story I saw a few years back. They conducted a sting operation in several Arizona cities. They would have mechanics go over a car and make sure everything is in perfect working order. They would then have an elderly person drive the car to a mechanic with a story about an odd sound or A/C problems. IIRC all except one of the shops they visited gave them estimates of many hundreds to thousands of dollars to "fix" the car. Some even went so far as to break engine parts. |
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08/17/2006 03:20:54 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Residency was average 60hrs/week ... |
New regulations let you get off easy -- a few years ago residents were putting in 100-120 hour weeks, 36-hour shifts, etc. -- more like Marine Boot Camp than effective medical education, but perhaps to be expected with our crisis-and-cure approach to medical delivery.
Also, three years is the average -- go into surgery and you might be sentenced to a seven year term ... |
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08/17/2006 03:24:12 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
i'll be bitchin about that soon! thanks travis99
Originally posted by Telehubbie:
Mechanics probably have a forum thread somewhere saying "I paid $2000 for a guy to take pictures at my daughters wedding!!! WTF?!?" ;-) |
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Naah we have a national agreement that we call BradP. Mechanics dont make enough to be able to afford to pay a professional to do it, cause cheap people wont pay a reasonable price for the maintenance on their cars.
MattO
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08/17/2006 03:25:03 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Residency was average 60hrs/week ... |
New regulations let you get off easy -- a few years ago residents were putting in 100-120 hour weeks, 36-hour shifts, etc. -- more like Marine Boot Camp than effective medical education, but perhaps to be expected with our crisis-and-cure approach to medical delivery.
Also, three years is the average -- go into surgery and you might be sentenced to a seven year term ... |
Ya, those rules weren't really in effect yet when I went through, although they were "recommended" so as not to shock the programs when they were enforced. I had my share of 80 hour weeks, but I had plenty of 40 hr weeks as well. Pediatrics isn't quite as lame as surgery where there are real problems with the "if I had to do it, you have to do it" attitude...
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08/17/2006 03:25:07 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Is the dealers name Downtown Auto center? Because they have there some of the BEST hybrid experts! |
I think that's it -- 41st & Broadway in Oakland. So far everythng's been fine. : ) |
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