Big Bang and creation of the universe

08/10/2006 05:17:31 PM · #676

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Single verses are pulled from the Bible to say a whole lot of things...

Like the existence of God?

If the Bible is the literal and perfect Truth as given directly by God to the prophets (to the bards, to the scribes, to the translators into Greek, to the translators into Latin, to the translators into English) then every part of it must also be perfect, for the presence of an imperfect part necessarily renders the whole imperfect.

If different passages seem to "prove" opposite and contradictory positions, does not that inconsistency cause just the slightest suspicion that the whole book may be somewhat less than "perfect?"

I never said a) the bible was perfect.

Misinterpretation and imperfection are far from similar.

08/10/2006 05:21:00 PM · #677

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I could go on, but I think this shows Christians believe God is unchanging.

Then it's still moral for Israelites to kill male child Amorites.

Only in the same way it's moral to eat ice cream before dinner. Come on Milo, listen to me here. God directed the Israelites to wage war on the Amorites. The war was waged and then the war was over. The necessity or benefit of the killing may not exist today, therefore the order may be rescinded.

As I said above, it's ok for my kids to eat ice cream after dinner, but it's not ok for them to eat it before. Have I capriciously changed my character by decreeing the evil nature of "before dinner" ice cream? No. There were underlying principles which dictated different behavior at different times.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/10/2006 05:24:33 PM · #678

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I never said a) the bible was perfect.

Well, which parts am I supposed to believe, and which should I then disregard? Someone must know. If not, then how can we be sure we're following God's order's, and not what the voices in some ancient schizophrenic's head told him to write down?

If Moses came down from Mount Sinai today with that same story, you'd likely be obligated by law to commit him for 72 hours observation, with or without a healthy dose of Thorazine ...

Message edited by author 2006-08-10 17:29:37.

08/10/2006 05:26:14 PM · #679

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Only in the same way it's moral to eat ice cream before dinner. Come on Milo, listen to me here. God directed the Israelites to wage war on the Amorites. The war was waged and then the war was over. The necessity or benefit of the killing may not exist today, therefore the order may be rescinded.
As I said above, it's ok for my kids to eat ice cream after dinner, but it's not ok for them to eat it before. Have I capriciously changed my character by decreeing the evil nature of "before dinner" ice cream? No. There were underlying principles which dictated different behavior at different times.

I can't believe youâ��re comparing killing children to eating ice cream...

Message edited by author 2006-08-10 17:26:26.

08/10/2006 05:29:39 PM · #680

Originally posted by milo655321:

I can't believe youâ��re comparing killing children to eating ice cream...

Eating the ice cream is definitely more pleasant.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/10/2006 05:31:19 PM · #681

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by milo655321:

I can't believe youâ��re comparing killing children to eating ice cream...

Eating the ice cream is definitely more pleasant.

Tell it to the Marines. (Sorry, unpleasant topical "joke")

08/10/2006 05:31:56 PM · #682

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I never said a) the bible was perfect.

Well, which parts am I supposed to believe, and which should I then disregard? Someone must know. If not, then how can we be sure we're following God's order's, and not what the voices in some ancient schizophrenic's head told him to write down?

If Moses came down from Mount Sinai today with that same story, you'd likely be obligated by law to commit him for 72 hours observation, with or without a healthy dose of Thorazine ...

There are likely small errors or inconsistencies which have crept in over time. I don't think it affects the overall message. I still hold firmly that misinterpretation and imperfection are quite different.

"Joshua's triumph was heard throughout the valley" does not refer to the world's first motorcycle...

08/10/2006 05:34:05 PM · #683

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

God directed the Israelites to wage war on the Amorites.

Why bother? After all...

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Because God is God, it is ok for him to kill Amorites. He made them after all. Does the Creator not have dominion over his Creation? That does not mean that it is OK for us to kill Amorites. We do not hold such a position of power.

Why couldn't God just say, "Let there be poisoned ice cream in Amorite land" and save the Isrealites a lot of trouble, not to mention the conflicting signals they get by saying, "Yeah OK, you can go kill those kids, but just this once!"

08/10/2006 05:35:35 PM · #684

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by milo655321:

I can't believe youâ��re comparing killing children to eating ice cream...

Eating the ice cream is definitely more pleasant.

And doesn't hold nearly the moral weight most people ascribe to killing children.

08/10/2006 05:35:38 PM · #685

I'm sure I'm not smart enough to know the Mind of God.

08/10/2006 05:39:29 PM · #686

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

So who knows the correct interpretation of each passage? If a perfect creator wants to deliver a message, why not just make the book trilingual to begin with? LOTS of people still understand Latin and Hebrew, so why start with Aramaic?

08/10/2006 05:39:34 PM · #687

Nobody really convinces anybody of anything in these threads. My point for partaking is to let the average atheist know that it isn't safe to assume there is nothing between the ears of Joe Christian whom you meet on the street. Men and women far smarter than us have embraced Christianity and held a firm and steadfast belief that they have found The Truth. Men and women far smarter have also embraced atheism. I do not pretend to have all the answers, but I do claim to have thought things through.

08/10/2006 05:40:28 PM · #688

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
There are likely small errors or inconsistencies which have crept in over time. I don't think it affects the overall message. I still hold firmly that misinterpretation and imperfection are quite different.

So who knows the correct interpretation of each passage? If a perfect creator wants to deliver a message, why not just make the book trilingual to begin with? LOTS of people still understand Latin and Hebrew, so why start with Aramaic?

There is no more than a smattering of aramaic in the bible... ;0)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/10/2006 05:41:05 PM · #689

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

"Joshua's triumph was heard throughout the valley" does not refer to the world's first motorcycle...

Nor to the world's first over-amped PA system ... or AM radio ... did the Earth really stop rotating that day?

But, I don't get your point.

You said the Bible is not perfect ... I'd expect someone -- preferrably a Judeo-Christian scholar competent to make such a judgement -- to have by now compiled a comprehensive list of which parts of the Bible are wrong, so we can avoid sinning by ignoring them.

BTW: Is there any "evidence" (you know, like evidence for evolution) for the existence of God, other than what's written in the (imperfect) Bible?

Tamron AF 18-270mm F/3,5-6,3 Di II VC LD Aspherical [IF] macro for Canon

08/10/2006 05:43:49 PM · #690

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm sure I'm not smart enough to know the Mind of God.

We're not smart enough to understand the natural origin of life, although we have some pretty good ideas and could very well figure it out eventually. Men and women far smarter than us have embraced Greek mythology and held a firm and steadfast belief that they have found The Truth. Hand me that oar, will ya?

dahved

Canon EOS-50D

08/10/2006 05:44:09 PM · #691

I just want to chime in that I appreciate the mature tone in the recent exchange in this thread...and also so that this thread is in my "Last 10 threads posted to."

I'd say more, but we got a newborn here and we're still in the hospital.

08/10/2006 05:44:27 PM · #692

Originally posted by GeneralE:

You said the Bible is not perfect ... I'd expect someone -- preferrably a Judeo-Christian scholar competent to make such a judgement -- to have by now compiled a comprehensive list of which parts of the Bible are wrong, so we can avoid sinning by ignoring them.

I'm sure you could find shelves of such books.

Originally posted by GeneralE, the snippy:

BTW: Is there any "evidence" (you know, like evidence for evolution) for the existence of God, other than what's written in the (imperfect) Bible?

Yes. We've been talking about it above. It isn't scientific because God is not Natural. Why should we hope to find evidence of a super-natural entity through natural means?

08/10/2006 05:45:36 PM · #693

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm just reposting this because it got lost quite quickly in a barrage of posts...

08/10/2006 05:47:36 PM · #694

Originally posted by dahved:

I'd say more, but we got a newborn here and we're still in the hospital.

Sweet! Congratulations.

08/10/2006 05:50:21 PM · #695

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

There is no more than a smattering of aramaic in the bible... ;0)

From Answers.com "...the native language of Jesus, his Apostles, and most or all the authors of the New Testament was Aramaic, not Koine Greek, see also Aramaic of Jesus. Also that the first Christian communities may have come into existence in Aramaic speaking modern Lebanon and Syria, and Israel, and that the first converts to Christianity were likely Aramaic speaking Jewish synagogues even when in Greek or Latin speaking cities."

Tamron AF 18-270mm F/3,5-6,3 Di II VC LD Aspherical [IF] macro for Canon

08/10/2006 05:51:02 PM · #696

Originally posted by dahved:

I'd say more, but we got a newborn here and we're still in the hospital.

Apparently your takehome messages are a) he's safe if he isn't an Amorite and b) don't let him have ice cream before dinner.

dahved

Canon EOS-50D

08/10/2006 05:51:28 PM · #697

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by dahved:
I'd say more, but we got a newborn here and we're still in the hospital.

Sweet! Congratulations.

Thanks, Bill. He's great, and his name is Elijah. BTW, in relation to this thread, he and his sister are two pieces of evidence to me for the existence of God. :-)

08/10/2006 05:52:10 PM · #698

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
There is no more than a smattering of aramaic in the bible... ;0)

From Answers.com "...the native language of Jesus, his Apostles, and most or all the authors of the New Testament was Aramaic, not Koine Greek, see also Aramaic of Jesus. Also that the first Christian communities may have come into existence in Aramaic speaking modern Lebanon and Syria, and Israel, and that the first converts to Christianity were likely Aramaic speaking Jewish synagogues even when in Greek or Latin speaking cities."

I didn't say they didn't speak aramaic. I said the bible is hardly written in it. The oldest manuscripts we have, I believe, are greek for the new testament.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/10/2006 05:59:36 PM · #699

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE, the snippy:

BTW: Is there any "evidence" (you know, like evidence for evolution) for the existence of God, other than what's written in the (imperfect) Bible?

Yes. We've been talking about it above. It isn't scientific because God is not Natural. Why should we hope to find evidence of a super-natural entity through natural means?

So the only evidence for the existence of God is that there are things for which we've not yet figured out a "natural" explanation. As much as it sickens me, I gotta agree with the Rumsfeld/Cheney cabal on this one -- a lack of evidence is not, in itself, evidence of anything.

If someone walks into the ER today and says that he hears God speaking to him -- maybe even in Aramaic -- telling him to go kill some Amorite kids ... what would you do/diagnose? Do you think neurotransmitter imbalance is just something recently invented by the marketing folks at Big Pharma? (I know, there might be a reasonable suspicion.) Why should we "believe" John and not John Doe, especially when there's no video?