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08/01/2006 06:52:58 AM · #601 |
Originally posted by David.C:
A community with no path to forgiveness is left with only one way of punishing transgressors -- Death!
Without a means of attonement for transgressions the members of a community will rip each other apart for even the smallest offense.
This is no different than barbarity. |
According to Revelations there is also a false prophet amongst us;
Rev 19:20
"Then the beast was captured, and with him the
false prophet who worked signs in his presence,
by which he deceived those who received the
mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image."
The verse continues, and tells us which punishment we must choose...
"These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." |
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08/01/2006 06:53:15 AM · #602 |
Originally posted by photoheathen:
Originally posted by David.C:
Rikki has transgressed against the site -- the site, not the individuals in it. |
The site is the individuals...otherwise, it's just a collection of text and graphics on a greyish background...never changing, never growing, never learning, never existing. The individuals drive this community, make it what it is, and it is therefor the individuals who were wronged here.
To say such a thing is just like saying Ken Ley transgressed against Enron -- Enron, not Enron's employees. |
Yes the individuals make the site what it is, but they do so collectively. The site as a whole has an existence that is more than the sum of its parts -- and quite apart from any single individual that may pass thru.
His actions were specifically against the site, and it is the site (represented by those that lead it) who decided his punishment. What individuals were singled out? Not just affected by collateral damage, but actually singled out as an individual ('that one') -- and what direct actions were taken against them?
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08/01/2006 06:56:38 AM · #603 |
Originally posted by David.C:
...What individuals were singled out? Not just affected by collateral damage, but actually singled out as an individual ('that one') -- and what direct actions were taken against them? |
Those individuals who were cheated out of a ribbon and the recognition of their achievement on the front page. They were singled out by the cheater. |
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08/01/2006 07:05:57 AM · #604 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
... David-That's off the scale extreme. Somewhere between 50 lashes with a wet noodle and "DEATH" there are plenty of options for our community many of which don't slip into babarism.
The Ken Lay anology works perfectly so I won't add to that point. |
After the 50 lashes, then what? Without a chance for forgiveness the transgressor is repeatedly 'punished' again and again by the community for crime he has already paid for. The only end of the punishment is death -- does it really change the outcome by being prolonged for the more minor offenses?
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08/01/2006 07:08:25 AM · #605 |
Originally posted by David.C:
Originally posted by photoheathen:
Originally posted by David.C:
Rikki has transgressed against the site -- the site, not the individuals in it. |
The site is the individuals...otherwise, it's just a collection of text and graphics on a greyish background...never changing, never growing, never learning, never existing. The individuals drive this community, make it what it is, and it is therefor the individuals who were wronged here.
To say such a thing is just like saying Ken Ley transgressed against Enron -- Enron, not Enron's employees. |
Yes the individuals make the site what it is, but they do so collectively. The site as a whole has an existence that is more than the sum of its parts -- and quite apart from any single individual that may pass thru.
His actions were specifically against the site, and it is the site (represented by those that lead it) who decided his punishment. What individuals were singled out? Not just affected by collateral damage, but actually singled out as an individual ('that one') -- and what direct actions were taken against them? |
"That depends on what the definition of 'is' is" - Bill Clinton
The site is the individuals that make it up. You're describing it as though the site is this intangible, metalic machine that just sort of chugs along despite the direction or orders it is given by the individuals inside. This isn't some etailer here. We're not talking about some hacker defrauding Amazon. This is a community. The site is the sum of its indivdual users and each individual user independent of one another. To cheat the site is to cheat the individual and the collective.
Stop describing this as a victimless crime and I'll stop arguing this point with you. |
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08/01/2006 07:10:58 AM · #606 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
Originally posted by David.C:
...What individuals were singled out? Not just affected by collateral damage, but actually singled out as an individual ('that one') -- and what direct actions were taken against them? |
Those individuals who were cheated out of a ribbon and the recognition of their achievement on the front page. They were singled out by the cheater. |
''
I agree with doctornick 1000%. With all due respect, you seem to be blurring the lines some.
By name or specific design he did not single any one particular person out but individuals were affected and he knew individuals would be affected so what really is the difference? |
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08/01/2006 07:16:16 AM · #607 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
Originally posted by David.C:
...What individuals were singled out? Not just affected by collateral damage, but actually singled out as an individual ('that one') -- and what direct actions were taken against them? |
Those individuals who were cheated out of a ribbon and the recognition of their achievement on the front page. They were singled out by the cheater. |
That is collateral damage -- and damage that is in process of being repaired by the site. He is accused of vote tampering, not stealing ribbons.
Assigning blame for collateral damage has blossomed until (as some have suggested in this thread) he is somehow responsible for all the so-called 'troll' votes in the last year.
Keeping his crimes to what he has actually done will serve justice without branching into vindictiveness.
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08/01/2006 07:27:44 AM · #608 |
Originally posted by photoheathen:
... Stop describing this as a victimless crime and I'll stop arguing this point with you. |
But I am not describing this as a 'victimless crime' -- the site is the victim. If he had used the 'voting machine' as it has been called to single out an individual for low votes, that individual would also be a victim of the crime. But as it is you are assigning victims by looking back after the fact, when victims galore exist you can apply names to -- I am assigning victims during the fact when those you claim are victims were nameless individuals in a crowd and not singled out at all.
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08/01/2006 07:31:10 AM · #609 |
Cant we lock this thread and move on? :)
You will always find a 50-50 positioning on something like this.
Always.
Reminds me of our SA cricket captain Hansie Cronje and how he 'fixed' matches.
Oh, we(supporters, fans, patriots) were ashamed, he did us an incredible injustice and betrayed our trust.
But soon afterward there was forgiveness - he was only human.
And then he died in a plane crash, in-between all the mess. (Not that this has any relevance, just for those who didnt know)So he never reclaimed his dignity.
To me, its very much the same with Rikki. I feel more betrayed than anything else.
I dont hate him because of it. But, if he comes back, I will ALWAYS wonder if his entries are legit or not. He's branded now and he betrayed my trust, and I'm sure 50% of those involved in this thread would agree.
Forgiveness? Of course. Even the most hardened soul on DPC can forgive him and probably has already. But, with forgiveness comes rememberance. Not all people can forgive and forget.
Better to ere on the side of caution, I always say. And for someone like Rikki, that philosophy could be much more soul-destroying than not being forgiven, if ever he returns.
But what I really wanted to say is...
... can;t we just lock this thread and move on? :)
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08/01/2006 07:37:18 AM · #610 |
Originally posted by Guyver:
Reminds me of our SA cricket captain Hansie Cronje and how he 'fixed' matches.
Oh, we(supporters, fans, patriots) were ashamed, he did us an incredible injustice and betrayed our trust.
But soon afterward there was forgiveness - he was only human.
And then he died in a plane crash, in-between all the mess. (Not that this has any relevance, just for those who didnt know)So he never reclaimed his dignity.
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Can't forget that cronje episode. He was a very very good cricketer though.
Message edited by author 2006-08-01 07:38:06. |
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08/01/2006 07:39:53 AM · #611 |
Originally posted by David.C:
Originally posted by photoheathen:
... Stop describing this as a victimless crime and I'll stop arguing this point with you. |
But I am not describing this as a 'victimless crime' -- the site is the victim. If he had used the 'voting machine' as it has been called to single out an individual for low votes, that individual would also be a victim of the crime. But as it is you are assigning victims by looking back after the fact, when victims galore exist you can apply names to -- I am assigning victims during the fact when those you claim are victims were nameless individuals in a crowd and not singled out at all. |
You are being very pedantic we are all the victims, that is every individual member on this site that entered a competition in good faith and expected our fellow members to abide by the rules.
You can put a spin on it anyway you feel but that is up to you.
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08/01/2006 07:44:53 AM · #612 |
This is my first comment on this situation having scanned over the myriad of opinions. There are several considerations to this situation. 1)Did Rikki knowingly participate in the wrongdoing and to what extent was he involved? Obviously he knowingly participated. How else could he have consistently and frequently motivated friends and coworkers to repeatedly vote? Honestly, most of my coworkers are interested to see my pictures and like to know how I am doing in the voting, but most if not all of them, including my family, have little interest in spending the time to vote. In all fairness to everyone, I can understand if your girlfriend or wife sees your picture and votes you a 10 on occasion. This will have relatively little or no effect on a score involving hundreds of votes, but the large numbers of votes that showed up in this case certainly hints of conspiracy on a motivated and dedicated scale.
2)Does the punishement fit the crime? Maybe, maybe not. That all depends on the defendant and how important DPC wasw in his life. There are lots of photography websites. He will just find another.
3)What is the value of the punishment? This is the most critical element because it involves the essence of what DPC is all about. If this type of behavior goes on in DPC than ultimately it will lose its credibility and eventually cease to exist. So basically DPC is fighting for its life and has every reason to react in such a manner. This may be somewhat abstract in its comparision but this is not too much unlike the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers by Hizbalah. Is Israel supposed to sit idylly by or does this represent a potential cancer which needs to be cut out before it spreads and kills the host? Aggressive actions are sometimes necessary to prevent metastisis even if it involves having to remove peripheral "nodes" to stop the spread and make everyone aware of the consequences of invasion. |
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08/01/2006 07:46:23 AM · #613 |
Originally posted by David.C:
Originally posted by photoheathen:
... Stop describing this as a victimless crime and I'll stop arguing this point with you. |
But I am not describing this as a 'victimless crime' -- the site is the victim. If he had used the 'voting machine' as it has been called to single out an individual for low votes, that individual would also be a victim of the crime. But as it is you are assigning victims by looking back after the fact, when victims galore exist you can apply names to -- I am assigning victims during the fact when those you claim are victims were nameless individuals in a crowd and not singled out at all. |
Ok, whatever...I'm tired of trying to define "community" to you.
the terrorists didn't attack New Yorkers, they attacked New York...an exceptionally extreme and intentionally exaggerated analogy, but it's exactly what you're saying.
at any rate, this is not an issue that I was all that concerned with, but I felt compelled to engage due to your wording David. I'm done though...moving on, couldn't care less about what has now passed.
Message edited by author 2006-08-01 07:49:21. |
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08/01/2006 07:47:58 AM · #614 |
I said it earlier, there's a wide range of opinions on this issue. We can all agree that the conduct was wrong. Period.
Different individuals will have different emotional responses. For those with a strong emotional investment in this site the feeling of betrayal is very, very strong.
For those who advocate forgiveness remember that this may not be the best time. Like anyone who's suffered a loss, it takes time to process things. Understand that many are still in the "angry" stage. It's just going to take time to work through that.
Within reason, this thread provides an outlet for that. Respect the need for folks to have somewhere to vent at the moment. |
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08/01/2006 07:49:45 AM · #615 |
Originally posted by blemt:
I said it earlier, there's a wide range of opinions on this issue. We can all agree that the conduct was wrong. Period.
Different individuals will have different emotional responses. For those with a strong emotional investment in this site the feeling of betrayal is very, very strong.
For those who advocate forgiveness remember that this may not be the best time. Like anyone who's suffered a loss, it takes time to process things. Understand that many are still in the "angry" stage. It's just going to take time to work through that.
Within reason, this thread provides an outlet for that. Respect the need for folks to have somewhere to vent at the moment. |
What a perfect closing statement! :) |
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08/01/2006 07:51:47 AM · #616 |
Can we all just stop the fighting and get on with taking photos and sharing their enjoyment with each other? It seems many have forgotten that life goes on...and if you look at your front page...there are challenges under way. Concentrate on those and start smiling again.
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08/01/2006 07:52:19 AM · #617 |
| I've have somewhatignored this thread, knowing that the PC and owners did the right thing. But, to give him a break to me is not right. If he was DQed for 40+ challenges, he deserves at least a three year removal. 4 DQs gets you 4 week removal. 4 x 40+ = 160 weeks, thats about three years. Just my thoughts. Van |
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08/01/2006 07:52:37 AM · #618 |
Originally posted by David.C:
...That is collateral damage -- and damage that is in process of being repaired by the site. He is accused of vote tampering, not stealing ribbons.... |
That's a good one...the Individual Members who were cheated out of a ribbon are just collateral damage and he did not steal ribbons, he just tampered with the vote. You gotta be kidding!!!!! |
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08/01/2006 07:53:03 AM · #619 |
Originally posted by Guyver:
Cant we lock this thread and move on? :)
...
... can;t we just lock this thread and move on? :) |
Or maybe just let those who want to discuss it do so, and those who would like to move on could just do so without denying others their two cents worth?
For a group of people that get so easily offended by admin edits and thread locking, there's a tremendous number of you who seem to think that everyone besides YOU should just shut the devil up. That's elitism and it's rude. Let's leave the discussion open. It's only been two days, well, really one, and there are MANY forum users who have probably not even had the opportunity to visit the site yet.
I call for a cessation of the "lock this thread" nonsense.
Making a big deal out of this is good. If there are any other offenders out there, they need to feel guilty. Let's quit trying to sweep this under the rug. It was wrong, and it IS big. Stop trying to minimize it. |
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08/01/2006 07:56:55 AM · #620 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Originally posted by Guyver:
Cant we lock this thread and move on? :)
...
... can;t we just lock this thread and move on? :) |
Or maybe just let those who want to discuss it do so, and those who would like to move on could just do so without denying others their two cents worth?
For a group of people that get so easily offended by admin edits and thread locking, there's a tremendous number of you who seem to think that everyone besides YOU should just shut the devil up. That's elitism and it's rude. Let's leave the discussion open. It's only been two days, well, really one, and there are MANY forum users who have probably not even had the opportunity to visit the site yet.
I call for a cessation of the "lock this thread" nonsense.
Making a big deal out of this is good. If there are any other offenders out there, they need to feel guilty. Let's quit trying to sweep this under the rug. It was wrong, and it IS big. Stop trying to minimize it. |
Shoo man... relax.
Was just trying to keep the peace here.
Its been on discussion for 25 pages with no real conclusion, cept that there are people with a view like yours, and those who don't.
Sorry for the suggestion. My bad.
Message edited by author 2006-08-01 07:57:33. |
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08/01/2006 08:00:36 AM · #621 |
Originally posted by Judi:
Can we all just stop the fighting and get on with taking photos and sharing their enjoyment with each other? It seems many have forgotten that life goes on...and if you look at your front page...there are challenges under way. Concentrate on those and start smiling again. |
I second this, as it is definately time to move on.....
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08/01/2006 08:14:19 AM · #622 |
Originally posted by Guyver:
Originally posted by nards656:
Originally posted by Guyver:
Cant we lock this thread and move on? :)
...
... can;t we just lock this thread and move on? :) |
Or maybe just let those who want to discuss it do so, and those who would like to move on could just do so without denying others their two cents worth?
For a group of people that get so easily offended by admin edits and thread locking, there's a tremendous number of you who seem to think that everyone besides YOU should just shut the devil up. That's elitism and it's rude. Let's leave the discussion open. It's only been two days, well, really one, and there are MANY forum users who have probably not even had the opportunity to visit the site yet.
I call for a cessation of the "lock this thread" nonsense.
Making a big deal out of this is good. If there are any other offenders out there, they need to feel guilty. Let's quit trying to sweep this under the rug. It was wrong, and it IS big. Stop trying to minimize it. |
Shoo man... relax.
Was just trying to keep the peace here.
Its been on discussion for 25 pages with no real conclusion, cept that there are people with a view like yours, and those who don't.
Sorry for the suggestion. My bad. |
No bad, Guyver, really didn't mean to direct it all at you; didn't even mean to sound harsh. I know I DID sound harsh, but that wasn't my intent. I just get upset a little when something this big comes up and there's an immediate outcry for everyone to stop talking about it.
I do strongly support peaceful discussion, and we need to all work toward that, but I really would like for it to be voluntary rather than SC having to lock the thread to "shut everyone up." See what I mean? Locking a thread is a last resort when a discussion is out of hand. That's not true here; the subject is simply very sensitive and emotional.
And for those who - perhaps like yourself - would prefer the discussion to die, I really do gently recommend the "ignore thread" option so that you don't wind up entangled in something you don't enjoy.
My apologies if I was insulting in my comments.
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08/01/2006 08:16:32 AM · #623 |
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08/01/2006 08:20:35 AM · #624 |
I agree...the thread needs to be locked.
When people start talking in terms of the bible and stuff that is usually the first sign of a thread gone astray.
Oi.......:-/
Message edited by author 2006-08-01 08:20:49. |
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08/01/2006 08:38:23 AM · #625 |
Regarding the locking of this thread...
Originally posted by Guyver:
Its been on discussion for 25 pages with no real conclusion, cept that there are people with a view like yours, and those who don't. |
The fact that there are this many pages is not a reason to lock this thread.
On the contrary. The fact that there are this many pages over a two day period proves tremendous interest in and a need for this thread (still).
Edit to add: There are still recent posts that start with something like "I just came across this thread..." A lot of people have yet to see this thread.
Message edited by author 2006-08-01 08:40:32. |
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