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07/20/2006 11:51:10 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
I really didn't want to open this can of worms again. But by the last few thread entries it is easy to see where people are still confused. When the rules use Photoshop actions or filters or whatever as an example it gets confusing. As we can see there is a huge difference between previous versions of PS and the newer PS CS2. Things that were adjustments are now filters and things get moved around. I suspect the next version when it has many of the Lightroom features integrated will be even different. I know it is difficult to set hard and fast rules. I don't think I'm confused too much but I sure hate to see newbies get DQ'd because of confusion between filters and adjustments and selection etc.
Would it not be eaier to plainly list say 5 things that can be done and drop the PS equivalent. Such as
"without selecting any pixel or specific part of a photo you may use your processing program to sharpen, soften, adjust contrast, curves, adjust levels, crop, or convert to B&W or variations. You may use any function under your processing program that is listed as a filter as long as it was supplied by that specific program as a default. No home-made or aftermarket actions, filters or adjustment tools can be used other than conversion from RAW to RGB or Adobe format after which the default parameters of you processing program comes into affect."
Just look at the advanced winners in many challenges. Some or more art work than photo. The over processing has taken the original photos and changed it in such a way that it is no longer a true represetation of what the photographer captured. That's great, we need this kind of wide-open challenge but the basic really needs to get back to basics. Not straight out of the camera basic but simplified more to that standard. AND WOW ... some of the straight out of the camera entries were pretty darn good.
Once the newbies become proficient with both taking photos and the abilities within their programs, most photos will look outstanding without selection type adjustments. Again, I just really do not like to see newbies DQ'd when there was confusion or no attempt at trying to cheat. |
I agree with your intent to make the rules simpler and clearer. But it is difficult for me to think of Pano as a newbie, or that confusion was at play in this case. To me it's more like the photographer wasn't quite satisfied with the shot as it could be edited within Basic rules, and an attempt to improve it just a bit more by using a tool not permitted under those rules. Who knows for sure what went on inside the photographer's head? It appears that it is just as likely an exercise in trying to expand the envelope as a case of confusion. People are always trying to make Basic into Advanced.
But the part I don't understand is why do it. If you decide to shoot with a fisheye lens, then why are you not happy with a fisheye image? Are we, collectively, so indoctrinated into the use of photoshop that we feel we must do the things that it is capable of? and that those things are so much of an improvement that a photo is no good until it is massaged? Perhaps we should consider Pano as a victim of a somewhat distorted group mentality. Seeing the original I think we can judge that it would have faired well without the benefit(?) of the defishing.
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07/20/2006 12:07:41 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by marycciu:
I think I'm going to view basic editing as "take a damn good pic from your camera" so post processing is a mute point (to a certain extent of course. Erm... |
Shouldn't all your photography be that way? |
I like it that way. Not to say that it's easy for me to get what I want while shooting, but I don't particularly enjoy the post-shoot tweaking. |
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07/20/2006 12:10:12 PM · #53 |
I realize that I have never submitted an image to this site, and this type of arguement is exactly the reason why I don't. I do however have to comment on this, mostly because I think it's a tad rediculous.
Why don't you just fix the rules and make them appropriate. Instead of saying things like ... including but not limited too... and then having a bunch of things that can be done, why not just say "Basic Editing - curves and levels ONLY" and "Advanced Editing - Any type of editing other than adding new content or changing the image so that the content of the original image is modified" ... I mean really ... there's no real prize to these contests, so why have so many specific rules. With disqualification being very easy to accidentally have happen, and this site costing money, and then being punished for DQ's... I'd never submit anything just because of the fear of someone DQing me for using a filter I thought was legal. Either a DQ shouldnt mean anything other than "Better luck next time, you cant win this contest" ... or the rules should be made extremely plain and impossible to get around, like... you can ONLY use Curves, Levels, Contrast, Saturation, with no "etc" or whatever.... no room for "wondering" or elaboration.
*Off my soap box*
sorry if I offended anyone. |
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07/20/2006 12:13:45 PM · #54 |
agree to you, my opinion is rules are like this because there are a lack of knowledge and experience :(
icerock
Originally posted by deadlance:
I realize that I have never submitted an image to this site, and this type of arguement is exactly the reason why I don't. I do however have to comment on this, mostly because I think it's a tad rediculous.
Why don't you just fix the rules and make them appropriate. Instead of saying things like ... including but not limited too... and then having a bunch of things that can be done, why not just say "Basic Editing - curves and levels ONLY" and "Advanced Editing - Any type of editing other than adding new content or changing the image so that the content of the original image is modified" ... I mean really ... there's no real prize to these contests, so why have so many specific rules. With disqualification being very easy to accidentally have happen, and this site costing money, and then being punished for DQ's... I'd never submit anything just because of the fear of someone DQing me for using a filter I thought was legal. Either a DQ shouldnt mean anything other than "Better luck next time, you cant win this contest" ... or the rules should be made extremely plain and impossible to get around, like... you can ONLY use Curves, Levels, Contrast, Saturation, with no "etc" or whatever.... no room for "wondering" or elaboration.
*Off my soap box*
sorry if I offended anyone. |
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07/20/2006 12:13:47 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
[quote=coolhar]
But the part I don't understand is why do it. If you decide to shoot with a fisheye lens, then why are you not happy with a fisheye image? Are we, collectively, so indoctrinated into the use of photoshop that we feel we must do the things that it is capable of? and that those things are so much of an improvement that a photo is no good until it is massaged? Perhaps we should consider Pano as a victim of a somewhat distorted group mentality. Seeing the original I think we can judge that it would have faired well without the benefit(?) of the defishing. |
Yup that is it, basic is really not basic anymore and advanced usually is so over processed it's art work and not a faithful rendering of the event that was processed. By using only basic and advanced it puts people into a situation where they try to get more out of the picture than they were willing to put into setting it up and getting the perspective, lighting, contrast etc etc just right before pushing the shutter. There are a lot of great over processed pics and everyone wants to be like them. It is amazing how sharp, great contrast, lighting, colours etc etc can be gained with basic without using plug-ins or third party actions, but peole get drawn into them becasue of what they see in the winners circle. That is all I was getting at, basic should be basic using the default filters within any program. After the initial conversion out of RAW then the use of a single default program with default filters and no selection. That is a simple basic description. Multiple programs, selections, plug-ins and actions now are advanced. This is where computer abilities take over and the basic photographer is left behind. Just look at the bottom 10% of most advanced enties. Most of the photogs were really trying but along with the photography skill not being honed they don't know how to take advantage of the computer enhancing their work. Basic and advanced, cut and dry simple description. I really don't think Pano tried to cheat, he could have cropped and got the same affect. Simplify the rules.
Message edited by author 2006-07-20 12:15:59. |
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07/20/2006 12:14:59 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
I realize that I have never submitted an image to this site, and this type of arguement is exactly the reason why I don't. I do however have to comment on this, mostly because I think it's a tad rediculous.
Why don't you just fix the rules and make them appropriate. Instead of saying things like ... including but not limited too... and then having a bunch of things that can be done, why not just say "Basic Editing - curves and levels ONLY" and "Advanced Editing - Any type of editing other than adding new content or changing the image so that the content of the original image is modified" ... I mean really ... there's no real prize to these contests, so why have so many specific rules. With disqualification being very easy to accidentally have happen, and this site costing money, and then being punished for DQ's... I'd never submit anything just because of the fear of someone DQing me for using a filter I thought was legal. Either a DQ shouldnt mean anything other than "Better luck next time, you cant win this contest" ... or the rules should be made extremely plain and impossible to get around, like... you can ONLY use Curves, Levels, Contrast, Saturation, with no "etc" or whatever.... no room for "wondering" or elaboration.
*Off my soap box*
sorry if I offended anyone. |
Until you have experienced that update button it is hard to explain why it matters and why people get so passionate...go on...try it once and then get back to us;) |
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07/20/2006 12:15:07 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
I realize that I have never submitted an image to this site, and this type of arguement is exactly the reason why I don't. I do however have to comment on this, mostly because I think it's a tad rediculous.
Why don't you just fix the rules and make them appropriate. Instead of saying things like ... including but not limited too... and then having a bunch of things that can be done, why not just say "Basic Editing - curves and levels ONLY" and "Advanced Editing - Any type of editing other than adding new content or changing the image so that the content of the original image is modified" ... I mean really ... there's no real prize to these contests, so why have so many specific rules. With disqualification being very easy to accidentally have happen, and this site costing money, and then being punished for DQ's... I'd never submit anything just because of the fear of someone DQing me for using a filter I thought was legal. Either a DQ shouldnt mean anything other than "Better luck next time, you cant win this contest" ... or the rules should be made extremely plain and impossible to get around, like... you can ONLY use Curves, Levels, Contrast, Saturation, with no "etc" or whatever.... no room for "wondering" or elaboration.
*Off my soap box*
sorry if I offended anyone. |
From what I could tell it's just a friendly discussion of the issue - not angry, bitter, or venomous. Aside from the obvious disappointment Pano must have for having a very good photo DQ'd, this discussion is only increasing learning not only on this platform (dpchallenge) but bringing up issues etc. to further learning in general. For me, anyhow.
I think if I get DQ'd for an innocent overlook as Pano did of course I would be disappointed, but it wouldn't deter me from entering other challenges! In fact, Pano is probably getting more constructive criticism because of this than would have otherwise.
No offense, but start entering damn it! It's not really as complicated as it all seems.
Message edited by author 2006-07-20 12:15:57. |
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07/20/2006 12:22:31 PM · #58 |
| I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
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07/20/2006 12:24:43 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
Like a negative from a film camera should be straight from a camera? No darkroom work?
Message edited by author 2006-07-20 12:25:01. |
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07/20/2006 12:25:02 PM · #60 |
I hate to say this, but the fact that you didn't mention defish in the comments while mentioning most othe steps leads me to believe that at the least you knew you were pushing the boundaries.
It's a great shot though.
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07/20/2006 12:27:01 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
I see where you're coming from, but the site has gotten a bit more sophisticated than that... and the powers that be see it as basic now to do minor adjustments which is what the rules are attempting to outline.
Straight from the camera is pretty much what I try to do, but if I have to do a slight brightness boost or whatever I won't be DQ'd. Because I'm not all that into massive tweaking, the basic competitions are probably best for me. |
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07/20/2006 12:28:03 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
so if it were a film photo contest everyone must get thier photos developed at walgreens so no body can make thier photos better in the darkroom?
some cameras can do more control over things like color and contrast in camera than others so this in general is less fair IMO. |
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07/20/2006 12:28:40 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by amber:
Originally posted by deadlance:
I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
Like a negative from a film camera should be straight from a camera? No darkroom work? |
Why not? I think this is supposed to be "Photography Challenges" not darkroom challenges. Or is that not correct? DPChallenge - a DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY CONTEST ? or is it DPChallenge - A DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY AND DARKROOM MANIPULATION CONTEST?
I am not saying that there shouldn't be an advanced editing ruleset or maybe even more than 2 rulesets.. I'm just saying basic rules - no photomanipulation. Submit a jpeg or go cry somewhere else. That's simple enough. |
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07/20/2006 12:30:22 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by deadlance:
I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
so if it were a film photo contest everyone must get thier photos developed at walgreens so no body can make thier photos better in the darkroom?
some cameras can do more control over things like color and contrast in camera than others so this in general is less fair IMO. |
How is it unfair to say "straight from the camera"? who's fault is it that one persons camera isn't as good as someone elses? Go buy a new camera then.
It just seems like photography today has gotten away from what photography REALLY is. Photography isn't snapping a picture and then going to the dark room for 6 hours to "fix" the shot. Photography is simply - get the shot right in the camera... atleast that's what it used to be. It's not a difficult concept really. I can agree with simple fixes like brightening or darkening, but in the interests of simplicity, there really should be a "straight from the camera" ruleset or the basic set should be defined as straight from the camera.
Message edited by author 2006-07-20 12:33:00. |
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07/20/2006 12:30:55 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
I am not saying that there shouldn't be an advanced editing ruleset or maybe even more than 2 rulesets.. I'm just saying basic rules - no photomanipulation. Submit a jpeg or go cry somewhere else. That's simple enough. |
Hmm, this leads me to say you might want to go cry somewhere else then deadlance. |
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07/20/2006 12:31:02 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
Originally posted by amber:
Originally posted by deadlance:
I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
Like a negative from a film camera should be straight from a camera? No darkroom work? |
Why not? I think this is supposed to be "Photography Challenges" not darkroom challenges. Or is that not correct? DPChallenge - a DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY CONTEST ? or is it DPChallenge - A DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY AND DARKROOM MANIPULATION CONTEST?
I am not saying that there shouldn't be an advanced editing ruleset or maybe even more than 2 rulesets.. I'm just saying basic rules - no photomanipulation. Submit a jpeg or go cry somewhere else. That's simple enough. |
That's a philosophical debate which has been going on for as long as there have been programs to edit photography. I'm going to count to 20 and be surprised if I don't see the words "Ansel Adams" pop up here before I'm done...
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07/20/2006 12:31:37 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by deadlance:
I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
so if it were a film photo contest everyone must get thier photos developed at walgreens so no body can make thier photos better in the darkroom?
some cameras can do more control over things like color and contrast in camera than others so this in general is less fair IMO. |
How is it unfair to say "straight from the camera"? who's fault is it that one persons camera isn't as good as someone elses? Go buy a new camera then. |
And who's fault is it that some people know how to use photo editing software better than others? Go take a class then.
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07/20/2006 12:32:22 PM · #68 |
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07/20/2006 12:32:50 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by deadlance:
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by deadlance:
I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
so if it were a film photo contest everyone must get thier photos developed at walgreens so no body can make thier photos better in the darkroom?
some cameras can do more control over things like color and contrast in camera than others so this in general is less fair IMO. |
How is it unfair to say "straight from the camera"? who's fault is it that one persons camera isn't as good as someone elses? Go buy a new camera then. |
And who's fault is it that some people know how to use photo editing software better than others? Go take a class then. |
agreed! BTW where can I find that class? |
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07/20/2006 12:34:10 PM · #70 |
| I think Pano's out taking photos... :D |
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07/20/2006 12:34:41 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
Originally posted by amber:
Originally posted by deadlance:
I really just think that basic editing should simply be - straight from the camera... and advanced editing is a bit more open. That's all. |
Like a negative from a film camera should be straight from a camera? No darkroom work? |
Why not? I think this is supposed to be "Photography Challenges" not darkroom challenges. Or is that not correct? DPChallenge - a DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY CONTEST ? or is it DPChallenge - A DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY AND DARKROOM MANIPULATION CONTEST?
I am not saying that there shouldn't be an advanced editing ruleset or maybe even more than 2 rulesets.. I'm just saying basic rules - no photomanipulation. Submit a jpeg or go cry somewhere else. That's simple enough. |
*Ow*
There's no need to shout;)
Basic editing allows basic tweaking. Those are the rules and I abide by them. I'll cry right here if that's ok? |
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07/20/2006 12:35:07 PM · #72 |
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07/20/2006 12:35:25 PM · #73 |
So I am wrong? This isn't a photography contest website? It's a photomanipulation website?
Obviously there's no way to be specific enough to define the line between what a photo is and where it becomes over processed and art instead. That's all based on perspective and opinions. That's why I think the rules are inappropriate and should be fixed. |
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07/20/2006 12:35:44 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
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oh HA HA HA....me sediments exactly.
g
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07/20/2006 12:37:37 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by deadlance:
So I am wrong? This isn't a photography contest website? It's a photomanipulation website?
Obviously there's no way to be specific enough to define the line between what a photo is and where it becomes over processed and art instead. That's all based on perspective and opinions. That's why I think the rules are inappropriate and should be fixed. |
And another topic that volumes have been written on "is photography art?"
Bottom line: if you are okay with the rules then support and participate in the challenges. If you don't, find a contest you can deal with. Does anyone agree? |
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