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07/15/2006 12:19:54 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I just think that, in general, it has been the Arab states who have instigated the violence, and the Israelis have been the respondents.
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I don't think it's appropriate to assume that israel is in anyway not part of the Arab world. To diffentiate between the Israelis and the 'rest' of the arab world causes more cracks in a region that already needs more than a little bandaid to fix.
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07/15/2006 12:22:20 PM · #52 |
It seems to me that the US was not very interested in terrorism before September 2001. In fact, it was often found to be supporting "freedom fighters" when it suited it to do so.
Since 2001, almost every local conflict involves both sides trying to cast the other as terrorists, because the US has suddenly declared "war on terror". Examples are Israel (which reclassified all opposing elements "terrorists", and Russia (which reclassified Chechnyan separatists as "terrorists"). If you are fighting another nation, you accuse them of "state sponsored terrorism" to try and redress the balance.
The US can hardly denounce other nations' "wars on terror", given its own "war". If you want to supress any part of your populace nowadays, if you classify them as terrorists, get US support, and suddenly what would have been called a "hostage situation" or a "local uprising" is suddenly a cause for international condemnation. If they are Muslim, then your job is much easier.
The good old stereotyped isolationist American sees no further than his own nation's experience with terrorism, assumes that the rest of the world works in the same way it does back home (and thinks that if it doesn't, then it should), takes no time to understand how international relationships work, and calls out simply to "blast 'em".
Apologies to all my many good, clever and internationally aware US friends: you are being dragged down by what appear to me to be the majority.
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07/15/2006 12:26:42 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
There are 20k Americans and 10k UK citizens in Lebanon - are the Israeli bombs more discriminating in which nationality civilians they kill? |
Apparently your media doesn't bother to fill you in with ALL details: Israeli aircrafts spread thousands of papers over places where attacks should be expected, a day or two ahead, to make sure everyone is finding shelters or get the hell outta there.
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Then why are there a hundred or so Lebanese civilian casualties, and only a handful of Israeli civilian casualties?
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Because them stupid arab fanatics are staying in for "bombing parties" instead of actually getting their butts off the area. They fill they need to encourage the hizbollah or someone for their acts, instead of taking care of their own children.
That has always been our problem in these wars against those fanats.
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Nor did I hear any Israeli apologies for the family of 9 that they killed with a misguided rocket sent in the first wave of bombing.
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As you said it yourself - misguided.
In the katyusha attacks by hizbollah - none of the rocket was misguided. They intended to heat ONLY civil area and not military targets.
I don't think Israel owe anyone any appology. And it never will owe such a thing to anyone.
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07/15/2006 12:28:15 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
The lesson that has been repeatedly spread by Israeli foreign policy for the last 30 years is one of violence and aggression. Israel is not teaching anyone a lesson, other than that Israel cannot be negotiated with - it only respects violence. And with every death it causes there are created another half dozen converts to the cause that will deliver that violence to it. |
Hmmm. You seem to have overlooked some of Israel's non-violent, non-aggressive policy initiatives, like
* the Camp David Accords ( 1978 )
* the Israel / Egypt Peace Treaty ( 1979 )
* the Israeli Peace Proposal ( 1989 )
* the Oslo Accords ( 1993 )
* the Israel / Jordan Peace Treaty ( 1994 )
* the Wye River Memorandum ( 1998 )
* the Camp David Summit ( 2000 )
* the Clinton Bridging Proposals ( 2000 )
* the Taba Communique ( 2001 )
* the Geneva Accords ( 2003 )
among others. It appears that Israel CAN be "negotiated with", and HAS been "negotiated with" many times in the last 30 years. Unfortunately, the results of such negotiations are only words of intent and the expectation that all parties will honor their commitments. |
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07/15/2006 12:31:54 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by lazy_urfa:
I don't think it's appropriate to assume that israel is in anyway not part of the Arab world. To diffentiate between the Israelis and the 'rest' of the arab world causes more cracks in a region that already needs more than a little bandaid to fix. |
Honey, please go and finish your studies before getting into this sort of argument. Israel IS NOT a part of the Arab world, nor has it ever been or ever will be.
Israel is an independet country or the Israeli people.
It's true that there are arabs living in Israel. But still - it is not, in any way, part of the Arab world.
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07/15/2006 12:33:49 PM · #56 |
Offer Goldfarb
A good and interesting photographer in Israel. |
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07/15/2006 12:33:55 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Hmmm. You seem to have overlooked some of Israel's non-violent, non-aggressive policy initiatives, like
* the Camp David Accords ( 1978 )
* the Israel / Egypt Peace Treaty ( 1979 )
* the Israeli Peace Proposal ( 1989 )
* the Oslo Accords ( 1993 )
* the Israel / Jordan Peace Treaty ( 1994 )
* the Wye River Memorandum ( 1998 )
* the Camp David Summit ( 2000 )
* the Clinton Bridging Proposals ( 2000 )
* the Taba Communique ( 2001 )
* the Geneva Accords ( 2003 )
among others. It appears that Israel CAN be "negotiated with", and HAS been "negotiated with" many times in the last 30 years. Unfortunately, the results of such negotiations are only words of intent and the expectation that all parties will honor their commitments. |
And please, add to this the departure of the IDF from Lebanon in 1999;
the departure off the Gaza strip and evacuing all the settelments in the area, a stepp that we have started to take, but were interrupted by Hizbollah and other terror organizations, lounching rockets into Israel, from the north and from the south today. |
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07/15/2006 12:34:38 PM · #58 |
Jinjit,
since you are most informed (from all others posting here) about the state of Israel,
can you shed some light on the recent history, please (say, 1948-2006).
What I would like to know is, the population of Israel, and its breakdown in percentages, Jews, Christians, Muslims, other. Please include occupied territories and concentration camps.
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07/15/2006 12:40:19 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
1. What would you consider a "proportionate response" to an unprovoked incursion into your territory and the killing and kidnapping of some soldiers? To daily bombings over a period of some months or years? |
The years of bombings have been consistenty resulted in regular Israeli reprisals - tit for tat. Except that the Israeli reponse is usually to kill 10x the number of Israeli casualties. So the years of bombings have to be considered in the context of years of reprisals. If you are Arabian (to use the phrase loosely), you might consider it the other way around: years of Israeli incursions, followed by periodic Arab reprisals. It is not clear who "started" it.
It is clear that Israel is the only country to have occupy parts of its surrounding nations by military aggression. Lebanon has been a traditional moderate in relation to Israeli existence (I fear now, never again).
Originally posted by GeneralIE:
2. Which party has always called for the total destuction of the other?
Regardless of any current back and forth, it is the stated "policy" of the Arab states/factions to destroy Israel; it is not Israel's policy to eliminate the only Islamic state in the world. |
I understand you - I do not support this, but I can also understand the frustration of the people in the nations facing the might of Israel's military force. None of my Jewish friends can stand any Arab - they literally call them "dirty Arabs", and cannot understand how I can also have Lebanese and Egyptian friends ("they smell, they are disgusting, their culture is so primitive and revolting, etc etc etc"). While Israel does not have a national policy, the enmity and hatred is two ways.
Originally posted by GeneralIE:
If the Lebanese, the Syrians, and the Palestinians would join Egypt and Jordan as recognizing the right of the State of Israel to exist at all, it should be possible to re-establish some reasonable borders and live in peace. Unfortunately, this basic premise is apparently anethema to these states/factions, meaning Israel will constantly be defending itself from the countries which completely surround it. |
I agree with you that central to the issue, historically (until it was escalated into a "war on terror"), has been Israeli occupation of captured land. Israel has come so close to handing large parts of it back - if it coul only continue along that path, there might be a hope. But this war and the failure to commit to negotiations (well progressed in the case of the Hamas hostage) will set Olmert's plans back by years.
Admittedly, Hezbollah's interests do not lie in peace: they obtain kudos from their military victories over Israel. They probably do try and incite Israel into action. However, Hezbollah is a militant operation. Israel is a nation state. Israel has the responsibility not to be drawn into fighting and to be manipulated into war so easily. It is playing into the hands of the warmongers. Negotiation and politics were the ways forward. War has set everything back.
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07/15/2006 12:46:40 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Jinjit:
Originally posted by lazy_urfa:
I don't think it's appropriate to assume that israel is in anyway not part of the Arab world. To diffentiate between the Israelis and the 'rest' of the arab world causes more cracks in a region that already needs more than a little bandaid to fix. |
Honey, please go and finish your studies before getting into this sort of argument. Israel IS NOT a part of the Arab world, nor has it ever been or ever will be.
Israel is an independet country or the Israeli people.
It's true that there are arabs living in Israel. But still - it is not, in any way, part of the Arab world. |
The Jewish people used to form a significant part of the population of each Arab country, but now very few remain because of the antagonism caused by Israel. Christians in Arab countries are nowadays under increasing threat because of the poor relations with the US.
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07/15/2006 12:46:55 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Jinjit:
You are a beautiful example of what we like to call here - the dumb american. Who cares for nothing but his own comfortability.
I'm still holding my stomach laughing.
Not. |
Considering my own interests paramount to those of a group of backwards nations that:
- hold religion paramount to all other concerns
- continually call for the destruction of one of the allies of my country
- expect every other nation to accept their culture while at the same time refusing to accept the culture of any other nation
- sit atop the world's most precious resource with which they can strangle the life out of the infidel West
- abuse and opress half their own societies simply because they were born without a penis
...there's nothing dumb about considering these folks a real problem and one that should be dealt with in a harsh way.
Apologists for these maniacs never seem to feel bad enough about their supposed undeserved lot in life to walk away from the pc, sell the house and car and go live in a Saudi slum to spread peace, love, harmony and understanding among our Arab brothers.
I prefer a more stable world than the one we live in now. These folks have had millenia to get it together on their own and they can't, or won't. Why should I have to worry about getting blown up on the way to work as a result of it?
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07/15/2006 12:49:41 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
Jinjit,
since you are most informed (from all others posting here) about the state of Israel,
can you shed some light on the recent history, please (say, 1948-2006).
What I would like to know is, the population of Israel, and its breakdown in percentages, Jews, Christians, Muslims, other. Please include occupied territories and concentration camps. |
That is a huge topic. I would suggest that you start here:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
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07/15/2006 12:52:32 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
The Jewish people used to form a significant part of the population of each Arab country, but now very few remain because of the antagonism caused by Israel. Christians in Arab countries are nowadays under increasing threat because of the poor relations with the US. |
So other religions are not welcome in Islaamic countries and that is the fault of everyone but those Islaamic countries? Maybe it's one of a long list of clues that Islaam as currently practiced in the middle east is a far cry from the supposed peaceful, tolerant religion some would lead us to believe.
I am curious, if mosques had been firebombed en masse here in the states after 9/11 would you have postulated that it was the fault of the Islaamic nations and the failure of their religious leadership to clamp down on the radicalism within their own religion? |
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07/15/2006 12:55:44 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Considering my own interests paramount to those of a group of backwards nations that:
- hold religion paramount to all other concerns
- continually call for the destruction of one of the allies of my country
- expect every other nation to accept their culture while at the same time refusing to accept the culture of any other nation
- sit atop the world's most precious resource with which they can strangle the life out of the infidel West
- abuse and opress half their own societies simply because they were born without a penis
...there's nothing dumb about considering these folks a real problem and one that should be dealt with in a harsh way. |
Are you talking about the US here? Most of these criticisms apply to the strongly Christian US, calling for the destruction of many regimes in the middle east, expecting everyone else to accept its culture while refusing to accept others, sitting atop a massive wealth by which it imposes itself on other nations, abusing and oppressing half its citizens for their skin colour...
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07/15/2006 12:59:26 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Are you talking about the US here? Most of these criticisms apply to the strongly Christian US, calling for the destruction of many regimes in the middle east, expecting everyone else to accept its culture while refusing to accept others, sitting atop a massive wealth by which it imposes itself on other nations, abusing and oppressing half its citizens for their skin colour... |
If you want to attack the US, go start your own thread. This one is about Israel and what is currently going on there.
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07/15/2006 01:00:20 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
I prefer a more stable world than the one we live in now. These folks have had millenia to get it together on their own and they can't, or won't. Why should I have to worry about getting blown up on the way to work as a result of it? |
You have to realize that statements like yours and the policy that follows these statements resulted in our insecurity here. If we were really letting "these people" resolve their issues on their own, we would have never heard about bomb threats (except perhaps Tim McVeigh and such).
And yes, one way to feel secure and safe is to kill everyone else in the world, and keep the survivors produce goods at low labor rates that we can consume here. Boy I would really like to buy that EOS 5D for $100.. |
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07/15/2006 01:07:02 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
[quote=routerguy666]
You have to realize that statements like yours and the policy that follows these statements resulted in our insecurity here. If we were really letting "these people" resolve their issues on their own, we would have never heard about bomb threats (except perhaps Tim McVeigh and such).
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Well, I would disagree. What created the insecure situation was by not implementing policies that were agressive enough and allowing the situation to go from bad to worse ever since the Brit empire fell apart. That is why, in my opinion, Israel is absolutely correct in their method of disproportionate response. But even the Israelis, under pressure from the supposed enlightened nations of the west, don't ever have the will to see things through to completion. Hence half a century of low grade warfare. |
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07/15/2006 01:08:50 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Hmmm. You seem to have overlooked some of Israel's non-violent, non-aggressive policy initiatives...It appears that Israel CAN be "negotiated with", and HAS been "negotiated with" many times in the last 30 years. Unfortunately, the results of such negotiations are only words of intent and the expectation that all parties will honor their commitments. |
I do not deny that Israel has entered into negotiations and treaties (almost always at third party instigation and brokerage), but these do not seem to be successful - often, as here, due to escalation of response. It seems always to fall back on the tactic of overwhelming force. I do not accuse Israel of being solely to blame, but it is a nation state, dealing (generally) with radical individuals and groups. The nation state has a responsibility to use force sparingly, and to behave responsibly when deploying its army.
If it could better engage states such as Egypt, and take advantage of political solutions such as the deployment of Egyptian troops in neighbouring regions to control militant attacks where local forces have lost control, rather than taking the initiative itself, it could protect itself without inflaming local tensions.
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07/15/2006 01:09:45 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Are you talking about the US here? Most of these criticisms apply to the strongly Christian US, calling for the destruction of many regimes in the middle east, expecting everyone else to accept its culture while refusing to accept others, sitting atop a massive wealth by which it imposes itself on other nations, abusing and oppressing half its citizens for their skin colour... |
If you want to attack the US, go start your own thread. This one is about Israel and what is currently going on there. |
I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the statement.
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07/15/2006 01:11:02 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Well, I would disagree. What created the insecure situation was by not implementing policies that were agressive enough and allowing the situation to go from bad to worse ever since the Brit empire fell apart. That is why, in my opinion, Israel is absolutely correct in their method of disproportionate response. But even the Israelis, under pressure from the supposed enlightened nations of the west, don't ever have the will to see things through to completion. Hence half a century of low grade warfare. |
You are referring to some kind of 'final solution' here, right? Line in Eichmann's project?
Short is the way from a victim to a tyrant...
I can just say, I'm sorry the world is as it is. I sincerely hope that the peace will see the middle east soon - without too many relocated and killed. Some will die, some will be forced out of their homes (again), but I hope to keep the number to a minimum.
The sooner, the better.
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07/15/2006 01:26:23 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
You are referring to some kind of 'final solution' here, right? Line in Eichmann's project? |
No. I'm referring to calling a spade a spade. Israel should declare war on the countries that are harboring the 'terrorists' that are constantly attacking it and outright calling for its destruction. Half a century of limited response has done nothing but prolong the situation and foster resentment on both sides. Call it a war, which it is, and prosecute it as such. Brutally and without restraint. Get it over and done with and let the chips fall as they may. It seemed to work well in dealing with Germany and Japan.
Part II - stop catering to the religious theocracies in the middle east. Yes we must have their oil. Reimplement imperialism and run these countries until their 9th century world view can be bred out of their social consciousness. Take the oil we need and use the revenues to better their nations rather than letting it fund an ongoing party for their ruling elite, while the poor get poorer and blame us. Only country the Brits pulled out of that turned out ok is India. The rest, had they been able to afford it, they apparently shouldn't have left for a long, long time.
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07/15/2006 01:28:22 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Jinjit:
Apparently your media doesn't bother to fill you in with ALL details: Israeli aircrafts spread thousands of papers over places where attacks should be expected, a day or two ahead, to make sure everyone is finding shelters or get the hell outta there. |
No - not reported. We are told that targets are all military, and therefore civilian casualties are unfortunate but unavoidable. I would be surprised if people were told which military target was next on the list - perhaps you would provide a source?
Originally posted by Jinjit:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Then why are there a hundred or so Lebanese civilian casualties, and only a handful of Israeli civilian casualties?
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Because them stupid arab fanatics are staying in for "bombing parties" instead of actually getting their butts off the area. They fill they need to encourage the hizbollah or someone for their acts, instead of taking care of their own children.
That has always been our problem in these wars against those fanats. |
We are told that it is people running from the bombing in cities who are being blown up on bridges, convoys of civilians being killed fleeing from the bombs:
"A number of families were fleeing their village of Marwahin on the Israeli border when their convoy was struck by missiles on the coastal road to Tyre, a UN spokesman told the BBC."
"An Israeli air raid has killed at least 17 Lebanese civilians who were fleeing southern border areas." (BBC)
While the Israeli press has an agenda ("Banner front-page headlines in Israeli newspapers yesterday included “Smash Hezbollah”, “The Target: Nasrallah” and “Beirut Will Pay”." The Times), the BBC has no relevant national agenda.
Originally posted by Jinjit:
I don't think Israel owe anyone any appology. And it never will owe such a thing to anyone. |
I think that is part of the problem - Israel accepts no blame whatsoever. Compromise is a necessary precursor to peace - hard to see (on either side) where that is going to come from.
Message edited by author 2006-07-15 13:38:04.
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07/15/2006 01:36:50 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
No. I'm referring to calling a spade a spade. Israel should declare war on the countries that are harboring the 'terrorists' that are constantly attacking it and outright calling for its destruction. Half a century of limited response has done nothing but prolong the situation and foster resentment on both sides. Call it a war, which it is, and prosecute it as such. Brutally and without restraint. Get it over and done with and let the chips fall as they may. It seemed to work well in dealing with Germany and Japan. |
That is assuming that the war is won by Israel. It seems that the might of the US and allies do not have the manpower to occupy and partially control two nations. I would shudder to think what another front would result in.
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Part II - stop catering to the religious theocracies in the middle east. Yes we must have their oil. Reimplement imperialism and run these countries until their 9th century world view can be bred out of their social consciousness. Take the oil we need and use the revenues to better their nations rather than letting it fund an ongoing party for their ruling elite, while the poor get poorer and blame us. Only country the Brits pulled out of that turned out ok is India. The rest, had they been able to afford it, they apparently shouldn't have left for a long, long time. |
Maybe we should indenture them and make them work for us for free, too? Nothing like resorting to 15th century (or in the case of the US 18th century) policies to try and oppose someone else's "9th century world view".
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07/15/2006 01:39:20 PM · #74 |
| Where are the sign up lists for the concentration camps because it sure as hell seems I'm headed there in the near future. |
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07/15/2006 01:45:57 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by lazy_urfa:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I just think that, in general, it has been the Arab states who have instigated the violence, and the Israelis have been the respondents.
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I don't think it's appropriate to assume that israel is in anyway not part of the Arab world. To diffentiate between the Israelis and the 'rest' of the arab world causes more cracks in a region that already needs more than a little bandaid to fix. |
I appreciate your point, but (most of) the "Arab World" doesn't consider Israel a part of anything, do they? |
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