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07/13/2006 07:13:40 PM · #1 |
Anyone else watching this stuff on the news? I gotta say Israel is damn precise in their bombings...two bombs right in the exact spot on that huge airfield...that was some nice accuracy.
Some people accused Israel of 'using excessive force' -- I say screw that theory. Israel is showing how things should be done. If you kidnap two or two-thousand of my men...you're going to be sorry...they definately got it right. This should serve as a warning to everyone else.
Now hopefully other nations can just stay out of it and let nature take its course.
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07/13/2006 07:16:32 PM · #2 |
Lets not mixed this to here... It could get deeper than we would like to be.
sensetive issue.
IMO |
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07/13/2006 07:16:42 PM · #3 |
I have to agree with you. Israel isn't going to take any crap. That was a VERY bad move by the Lebanese.....
edit: This is going to turn into a big debate very quickly....
Message edited by author 2006-07-13 19:17:19. |
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07/13/2006 07:17:01 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by deapee:
let nature take its course. |
Maybe we will get forty days and nights of rain.
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07/14/2006 09:41:12 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Anyone else watching this stuff on the news? I gotta say Israel is damn precise in their bombings...two bombs right in the exact spot on that huge airfield...that was some nice accuracy.
Some people accused Israel of 'using excessive force' -- I say screw that theory. Israel is showing how things should be done. If you kidnap two or two-thousand of my men...you're going to be sorry...they definately got it right. This should serve as a warning to everyone else.
Now hopefully other nations can just stay out of it and let nature take its course. |
Good job at reinforcing my perceptions of the US stereotype.
Israel is in the process of killing hundreds while dismantling the civilian infrastructure of another nation state, because militants took hostage a couple of soliders on a disputed border area (itself disputed because Israel has had a history of invading other countries).
If the situation were reversed, would you still support it – if Israel had been invaded and had its lands seized, if there were thousands of Israelis sitting in Lebanese jails, and Israel had had taken hostage two soldiers, would that justify the wholesale destruction of Israel’s infrastructure? I think that your answer would be very different, revealing your racism.
I was saddened by the US veto preventing the UN from condemning Israel for its recent invasion of the Gaza strip. I do not imagine that the US will be able to stop the UN from issuing another sanction against Israel this afternoon (though since no-one enforces the sanctions, it is a bit hard to understand why we bother).
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07/14/2006 09:56:01 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Now hopefully other nations can just stay out of it and let nature take its course. |
And would you say the same thing if someone nuked Israel?? It's a really bad attitude you have there I think!
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07/14/2006 09:58:49 AM · #7 |
I'm going to have to say, the OP views may be slightly skewed. Granted I do not fully understand all of the conflicts in the Middle East, but I do have a unique perspective on things.
My boss is a physician and a highly educated, level-headed man. He is also Syrian and was educated in Lebanon. He just came back from a visit to Beiruit on Tuesday of this week. His wife stayed behind to visit with friends and family a while longer. She is now TRAPPED. She is US embassy protected area at the American University of Beiruit, but can not get out due to the airport bombing as well as the roads to Syria being bombed. Lebanon has been very US friendly for quite some time. There are over 20,000 US citizens currently trapped in Lebanon by the bombings. The kidnapping that took place was done by a militant extremist faction.... NOT LEBANON!!! The reasoning for bombing Lebanon was to cut off supplies to this faction. Well, truth be told, this particular militant group does not have airplanes. In fact MOST of their supply lines are through Syria... NOT Lebanon. One theory is the reason for the bombing in Lebanon was to force the US to help expedite peace negotions between extremist factions in the Middle East. Israel knows that if they bomb Syria (the true supply lines), they will have a full-scale war on their hands that they are not prepared to fight. Lebanon is merely a pawn in this great chess game going on over there. My wife is having dinner with an Israeli client this evening and will be talking to her to get her spin on the events. It's certainly going to be interesting to speak directly with people connected to BOTH sides of this coin.
I would suggest that before you go off hurling accusations on a topic you don't fully understand, perhaps you should do a little more research to see EXACTLY what you're talking about. Again, I am no authority on the situation... In fact, the people involved (my boss, and my wife's clients) themselves don't FULLY understand the reasoning behind all of the animosity. The simple fact is there is extreme unrest in the Middle East... always has been. I just don't think we should add fuel to the fire by going around throwing uneducated accusations on topics that we don't fully understand!
Originally posted by legalbegal:
Good job at reinforcing my perceptions of the US stereotype. |
Not all of us are represented by this stereotype!
Message edited by author 2006-07-14 10:25:52.
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07/14/2006 10:36:29 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by Palmetto_Pixels:
The kidnapping that took place was done by a militant extremist faction.... NOT LEBANON!!! |
Yeah, and the bombing of the twins towers in the US was done by 4 men and not the El-Kaida movement. So why is everyone trying to hunt them down? Huh?
For your information, Israel worned all civilliants in the areas that were bombing, a few days ahead. To make sure all the innocents gets away. Did any of the Hizballah men ever warned anyone from Zefat or Nahariya for that matter, before bombing with their rockets and killing and wounding hundreds of civilliants?? Did they?
Before you dare to critic anything Israel do - live here for a month. Will you.
Then, maybe, your just opinion would have any worth at all.
As for the Lebanon government - they have been warned before. This is a years long dispute.
Israel stepped out of Lebanon 6 years ago. We had no intention what so ever to go back.
The border, where the soldiers were kidnupts, is under no dispute. This is the Israel border. Always been.
But still, the Lebanon government lets hizballah use their territory to send their bombs from, to the north of Israel.
Dammit, a rocket fell in Haifa. Do check your map. That's a city under no dispute! Has never been.
So do save your opinions till AFTER you get to live the every day life here. So the lady is trapped. shame. But she's alive.
Now tell that to families of innocent people who got killed by those rockets, sent from Lebanon area.
deapee and others - thank you for your support. In these hard days, when people here have to live in shelters and spend their weekend underground, we do appreciate your support. You have no idea how much!
Message edited by author 2006-07-14 10:42:13. |
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07/14/2006 10:47:08 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Jinjit:
Originally posted by Palmetto_Pixels:
The kidnapping that took place was done by a militant extremist faction.... NOT LEBANON!!! |
Yeah, and the bombing of the twins towers in the US was done by 4 men and not the El-Kaida movement. So why is everyone trying to hunt them down? Huh?
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Again, I do not claim to be an expert on the situation... I never would even attempt to do so since I try to distance myself from politics as much as possible. I can not imagine living in an area that is plagued by the turmoil you guys have to live on a daily basis. I was just providing some insight that was given to me by someone who is intimately familiar with the other side of the fence. Part of the problem is a breakdown in civil communications between BOTH parties. I for one do not understand the need to live in constant conflict.
Based on what was told to me by someone who WAS raised in Lebanon and who DID live every day growing up in the area you describe, linking Hizballah to the Lebanese government is the same as linking the racist hate crimes committed by the KKK to the US government. Does this kind of thing happen... YES.... does it happen within the borders of the country in question... YES... does this mean the government SUPPORTS this type of behavior???? No!!!
Edit to add...
My heart goes out to everyone who is affected by power-hungry militants. I don't care if you're Israeli, Lebanese, Syrian, or IRAQI for that matter.... All of you guys are victims of disputes that have been going on practically since the dawn of civilization. Personally I hate to see any agressive action by ANY faction in the middle east... Like I said, I will be hearing an Israeli perspective tonight and that way I can honestly say that I have listened to BOTH sides of the argument with a truly objective ear. There are always three sides to every argument... Side A, Side B, and the truth (usually somewhere in the middle).
Message edited by author 2006-07-14 10:51:20.
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07/14/2006 11:28:17 AM · #10 |
Wow... at the very least this has been educational for me. Here's an article that might help explain the role of the Hizballah and they're involvement with Lebanon, Iran, and Syria a little better. It's an old article, but gives a historical account of things.
Hizballah in Lebanon
This also kind of explains a comment made by my boss this morning. He acknowledged the fact that the Hizballah operate out of Lebanon, but the problem is they are such a strong faction that if the legitimate Lebanon government tried to do away with the Hizballah, there would be civil war.
The bombing of the airport made no sense to him because it's a civilian airport and even though the Hiballah have a strong presence in Lebanon, they do NOT have airplanes. He also made the comment that in order to truly strike against the Hizballah, Israel should strike Syria (which is where he is from). Attacking Syria would not be a wise move because it would instigate a full-scale war which Israel does not want (and the US would probably NOT support).
To Jinjit... I apologize if I offended you, I'm just trying to make sense of all of this. It hits near to home because my boss is Syrian/Lebanese and he has been affected by this. He's really a great guy and I hate to see him worn down because he's worried about his family. My wife also speaks very highly of her Israeli clients, so there are no hard feelings as far as I'm concerned. I am just trying to wrap my brain around this turn of events and am admittedly having a difficult time doing so. The situation is SO complex that I don't think that ANY American that has not been exposed to it can accurately form an opinion or make any accusations. That goes for both myself and deapee.
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07/14/2006 11:29:30 AM · #11 |
I certainly do not support the activities of the militant faction of Hezbollah in firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel – I agree that it should be stopped. I agree with Jinjit that the Lebanese government has not asserted its control sufficiently strongly in the area. However, it is crazy to believe that invasion combined with the destruction of Lebanese infrastructure could make the situation better or safer.
Israel has today many more enemies in the area than it had before. It risks starting a much bigger war that it would not win on its own, dragging more nations into the fray. These risks are created by the disproportionality of the Israeli response.
I strongly wish that Israel would play a safer game, for its own sake, as much as for the sake of the people whose lives are affected by its militarily aggressive foreign policy.
I have not visited Israel, but I have visited several of its neighbouring countries. I have Lebanese friends and friends who are Jewish supporters of Israel. I tend to avoid this topic with either group of friends – neither side is particularly rational about it. I resent the suggestion that people who do not live in the area should not comment on it – I think that the strength of the external voice is likely to be the determining factor as to whether we ever see a resolution to the conflict, because the answer is not coming from any of the nations involved.
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07/14/2006 11:39:41 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Palmetto_Pixels:
It's an old article, but gives a historical account of things.
Hizballah in Lebanon
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That does not deal with the current position. There is an up to date summary here:
//news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/4314423.stm
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07/14/2006 11:42:39 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
That does not deal with the current position. |
No, but it does give a very detailed history of the Hizballah involvement in the Middle East. Thanks for the updated info link!
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07/14/2006 12:32:37 PM · #14 |
What ever position you take on this, this is something that can become really big. Governments are going to be expected to take sides on this issue.
My opinion (and I'm not expert), if the Lebanon governemnt does nothing to prevent Hizballah from operating within their borders, they might as well be suporting them. As far as they airport, yeah, Hizballah might not have any planes, but the cargo planes from North Korea that are supplying the rockets fired into residential areas can't land now.
Hizballah has strong ties with Iran as well, and the rumor is they want to turn the hostages over to Iran. Iran's wack job leader thinks the holocost never happened and has stated he'd like to wipe Israel off the map. This might be a good excuse for him to try that? If they get turned over to Iran, what if Iran puts them on trial?
Keep in mind Israel has nuclear weapons and their actions the last few days tell me they won't balk on using them. Scary situation no matter who you think is right.
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07/14/2006 12:42:18 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
I strongly wish that Israel would play a safer game, for its own sake, as much as for the sake of the people whose lives are affected by its militarily aggressive foreign policy.
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This will not happen until Israel has the backing of another militarily aggressive foreign force...
Unfortunately, there is nothing good that will emerge from this. This is 1967 happening all over again, the question is where will it stop - i.e. how many dead people will it stop on (from all sides).
We can only sit and watch...what else is there to do? If we try to stop israelis, this can quickly be construed as anti-semitism, as this is the political atmosphere that was created in 1948 - don't touch it, and if you try to stop palestinians, you are just accelerating their erasure from the earth - would you be willing to be a part of it? Not me.
I'll stay away and watch. |
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07/14/2006 01:32:25 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
What ever position you take on this, this is something that can become really big. Governments are going to be expected to take sides on this issue. |
This is one of the few occasions when I actually agree with you! ;-)
The unfortunate thing for the Lebanon/Hizballah connection is that if they try to force them out, there will be civil war. Is allowing them to operate in their boundaries a wise choice? Probably not, but if it were your country, wouldn't you be a little less inclined to say "get them out" if it meant throwing your country into a civil war? Which is the lesser of two evils?
No matter how you look at it, it's not a pretty picture. The next few days will set the tone for what's going to happen for a long time to come!
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07/14/2006 01:46:32 PM · #17 |
Being Jewish, and seeing that an entire half of my family is Israeli, I definitely have a biased view on this but...
Lets be honest here, Lebanon is under Syria's thumb, and they have been for a long time. And yes, the terrorists are in large part supported through Syria.
One thing people overlooked is this. People say that Israel is punishing a whole people and a whole country, when in fact only a few "terrorists" are responsible. That fact is, there is a huge amount of anti-semitism in the Middle East (Lebanon being no exception) and there has been for a very long time. While the population on a whole may not be "terrorists" in the sense that the shoot rockets and guns and capture Isrealis, the majority of Lebanese are by no means unhappy to see it happen. They quoted a Lebanese man in the newspaper saying that "It was like when Italy one the world cup, I felt like a king when I heard of the captured Israeli soldiers, I was overjoyed"
Israel feels that if the entire country is harboring these terrorists and supports them, then they have put themselves in harms way. Now of course innocents are going to be harmed, but let me ask you you something: If it was your brother or your sister that was captured, wouldn't you expect your country's army to go after them in full force and not stop until they were brought home? I think we all know the answer.
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07/14/2006 02:31:39 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Palmetto_Pixels:
The unfortunate thing for the Lebanon/Hizballah connection is that if they try to force them out, there will be civil war. Is allowing them to operate in their boundaries a wise choice? Probably not, but if it were your country, wouldn't you be a little less inclined to say "get them out" if it meant throwing your country into a civil war? Which is the lesser of two evils? |
Supporting known terrorist makes you a terrorist in my book. Even if you only support them out of fear of war.
If it were my county... I would choose not to be part of a country that supported terrorism and hate such as hizballah. I'd either fight or leave. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you think is right.
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07/14/2006 02:33:14 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by cfischl:
If it was your brother or your sister that was captured, wouldn't you expect your country's army to go after them in full force and not stop until they were brought home? I think we all know the answer. |
Excellent and valid point. I am not saying that the kidnapping was right. I think it was a terrible thing, but this kind of thing has been going on on BOTH sides for quite some time. To answer your question, I would certainly go to every extreme I could to get one of my family members back, but that does not include beginning a war! Yes, something SHOULD be done, but the two soldiers are just the tip of a VERY large iceburg. Since both sides are guilty of kidnapping, I would like to think that a more diplomatic solution could be reached (in my idealistic world). It's pretty much a greater good thing. The good of the many outweigh the good of the few and all that jazz. I am totally objective when it comes to this subject and honestly I can't really understand why they do things the way they do in the Middle East simply because I've never been in those shoes. I just want to stand up and scream.... can't we all just.... GET ALONG!!!
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07/14/2006 02:53:09 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
If it were my county... I would choose not to be part of a country that supported terrorism and hate such as hizballah. I'd either fight or leave. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you think is right. |
LoudDog,
I appreciate your view, and I completely understand it if I take your assumption as true. You assume that everyone in the middle east that is not israeli is a terrorist and hate-monger, killer etc. That is something that has been instilled in you by the environment you live in and the media you listen to.
Example: yesterday in the news, I read the statement of the israeli ambasador to the us that bombing of haifa is a serious escallation. That came after israel demolished beirut's airport. And that was not serious escallation. In other news, palestinian former government of late yasser arafat is characterized as corrupt. Qualifying politicians as corrupt is like saying ocean water is salty, but it does not matter - it emphasizes and re-enforces the view that there is a good guys and bad guys, and that we should support the good guys in killing the bad guys. We'll always report on 'civilian deaths' on one side if they happen as civilian casualties by terrorists and militants, and we will also mention 'collateral damage' on the other side when an army performs an attack which purpose was 'eliminating extremists'. In the end you have a thousand deaths on both sides, that only prolongs the conflict by adding more reasons to hate the other side.
If you were to grow up in the palestinian refugee camp in lebanon, or if half of your contry was occupied for a looong time, you would probably have a different view on who the terrorists are and whom to support.
But, I also understand that for some people it is hard to imagine a different circumstances. It is much easier to qualify the sides in an appropriate manner and fly with that view - hell, makes it justifiable to occupy whole countries and topple regimes.
And you know what happens when you make an assumption? You make an ... |
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07/14/2006 03:20:32 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Palmetto_Pixels:
can't we all just.... GET ALONG!!! |
oh, i wish it was that simple.... |
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07/14/2006 03:25:08 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
If it were my county... I would choose not to be part of a country that supported terrorism and hate such as hizballah. I'd either fight or leave. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you think is right. |
LoudDog,
I appreciate your view, and I completely understand it if I take your assumption as true. You assume that everyone in the middle east that is not israeli is a terrorist and hate-monger, killer etc. That is something that has been instilled in you by the environment you live in and the media you listen to. |
I believe no such thing. GOVERNMENTS that support terrorism are terrorist. I understand that not all people there support their government or the terrorist and I don't expect them to take the same actions I would in that situation. Thus, if Israel were targeting civilian targets I'd be opposed to what they are doing.
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07/14/2006 03:31:12 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by srdanz:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
If it were my county... I would choose not to be part of a country that supported terrorism and hate such as hizballah. I'd either fight or leave. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you think is right. |
LoudDog,
I appreciate your view, and I completely understand it if I take your assumption as true. You assume that everyone in the middle east that is not israeli is a terrorist and hate-monger, killer etc. That is something that has been instilled in you by the environment you live in and the media you listen to. |
I believe no such thing. GOVERNMENTS that support terrorism are terrorist. I understand that not all people there support their government or the terrorist and I don't expect them to take the same actions I would in that situation. Thus, if Israel were targeting civilian targets I'd be opposed to what they are doing. |
Sorry to tell you this, but the Beirut airport has no military purpose whatsoever, and they put it out of business. It will take Lebanon years to recover from the economic chaos inflicted by that bombing. THAT is targeting civilians.
Do you believe that the only ones living in the south of Lebanon are Hizbollah terrorists? Israel's incurssions into south Lebabon have been killing civilians for years. They are just called "collateral damage".
The bridges and roads that Israel has put out of commission are not military. They are basic infrasture in Lebanon that civilians use every day.
Yes, Israel IS targeting civilians.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled rant. |
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07/14/2006 03:46:30 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Palmetto_Pixels:
can't we all just.... GET ALONG!!! |
Never have since the dawn of mankind. Only the strongest survive. The weak and intimidated are slaughtered and/or enslaved. Many many nations and peoples have been conquered (Monguls, Turks, Israelites, Babalonians, Romans, Native Americans - to name a few). It will continue. Hold on...
At least no one has blamed this on Bush - yet.
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07/14/2006 03:52:56 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by shanksware:
Sorry to tell you this, but the Beirut airport has no military purpose whatsoever, and they put it out of business....
...The bridges and roads that Israel has put out of commission are not military. They are basic infrasture in Lebanon that civilians use every day.
Yes, Israel IS targeting civilians.
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Let's keep this civil and not resort to bombing each other... I do agree with shanksware on these particular subjects. My boss's family is stranded as a result of the attack on civilian targets. They can not fly out due to the airport bombing and they can not travel to Syria because of the road bombings. They are essentially trapped and cut off. They are holed up at the American University in Beirut since this is a US protected area. They come from a fairly wealthy family and have a lot of resources others may not have. What about the tens of thousands of other US citizens who are also trapped in Beirut that may not be able to access a "safe" area. What about my boss who is very worried about his family because he went home to visit friends and family and now his wife is trapped because she wanted to stay a little longer? It seems to me that the civilians were harmed more than the Hizballah in this particular instance. Especially when you take into consideration that most of the weapons and support for the Hizballah come from Iran and Syria that were unaffected by the bombings.
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