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07/06/2006 10:33:19 AM · #1001 |
Originally posted by Prism:
tsheets,
what version of PaintShopPro are you working with? Both PSP9 and PSPX have a masking feature that works similarly to that described for Photoshop. The short cuts don't work, but if you create a duplicate layer, then use Layers->New Mask Layer->from image |
Thanks Prism, I am using X. I haven't used the mask from image all that often, usually from selection, or show/hide all and throw in a gradient, or paint directly.
So, mask from image seems to have the same effect that the CTRL-ALT-Tilde does, huh? I guess I just imagined it a lot different. If I could actually see an image and it's mask (gradient/feathering and all) using that method, I think I'd grasp it more easily.
Also, I think the latest revision of your Crow's Nest shot is better in some ways, and took a hit in others. The sky looks much better, the foreground grass, I like better (you could maybe even desaturate a little...bottom line, you don't want to draw attention to it..it's not really important), I also like the far right shoreline/hill. I think the Water is over-cooked on the left, I liked it better in your last version...looked more natural.
I think what bear meant by modeling, was the light shaping the elements within the scene. That was the problem with flat lighting...no sense of depth or texture.
Again, thanks for the tip, I'll play with that a bit. |
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07/06/2006 10:50:45 AM · #1002 |
Originally posted by Prism:
OK, one last kick at the cat with edits on this shot. I think I have a more realistic sky this time and have played around with spot editting to try and create what I hope is modeling as mentioned by bear_music. I also darkened the grass patch. Any comments?
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Though it is a classic landscape I like it a lot. The only thing that would make it better is to figure out and take the picture at the proper time and day of the year, but that is not our concern here. In landscape photography we often don't have that luxury.
Since there are no clouds or anything in the sky the gradient still seems a bit artificial to me. The reason being it is too geometrically even. Real skies are generally not that 'perfect'. That is not to say it is bad... I see this all the time in Arizona postcards so it serves a good purpose.
Something to try just to see how it works is to reduce the opacity of the gradient layer (assuming you put the gradient on a new layer of its own). That allows part of the original sky to show through and will retain some of the character and 'unevenness' of the original sky. I like to do that, but that might just be me. The downside is the amount of blue you add in the gradient is reduced.
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07/06/2006 11:30:33 AM · #1003 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Your question, "How is a highlight defined, and how much feathering?" is a good one. That is something I have wondered about myself regarding 'contrast masking' and never really found an answer. In Photoshop there is a setting in Curves that divides the display into fourths. Highlights are defined to be everything on the upper right 4th part of that display. Whether that applies to "CTRL-ALT-Tilde" and how much feathering is applied I do not know... maybe Bear_Music does. |
Nope, don't have a clue. I'll see if I can find out.
R.
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07/06/2006 11:32:36 AM · #1004 |
Originally posted by Prism:
OK, one last kick at the cat with edits on this shot. I think I have a more realistic sky this time and have played around with spot editting to try and create what I hope is modeling as mentioned by bear_music. I also darkened the grass patch. Any comments?
tsheets,
what version of PaintShopPro are you working with? Both PSP9 and PSPX have a masking feature that works similarly to that described for Photoshop. The short cuts don't work, but if you create a duplicate layer, then use Layers->New Mask Layer->from image, you will create a group layer with a mask. Any adjustment layers below the mask are then affected by the mask. You can modify the mask using the eraser or by painting on it (varying shades of white to gray to black change opacity of the mask) |
Major improvemnet. As far as your gradient goes, I disagree with Steve; it's right in the ballpark now. It looks exaggerated in the thumbnail, but they always do. It looks pretty clear to me that what you have now is indeed a faded overlay gradient, correct?
R.
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07/06/2006 12:06:03 PM · #1005 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Hmmmm... the "CTRL-ALT-Tilde" might be a built in Photoshop 'thing'...
...Your question, "How is a highlight defined, and how much feathering?" is a good one. That is something I have wondered about myself regarding 'contrast masking' and never really found an answer...
... maybe Bear_Music does. |
Thanks for the reply, stdavidson. We were posting at the same time, and I didn't see your response initially.
A rather simple picture (possibly even the gradient bar on voting pages) with the associated C-A-~ mask would be a good start...well, actually, doing it with a full sized shot and a 'web'-sized shot to see what effect the dimensions have on the feathering.
I think Prism's idea of using the image as a mask source (basically, the lightness channel) is a good start for non-photoshop users. But, it may require some tweaking to limit it to the highlights as defined by the C-A-~ technique.
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07/06/2006 12:13:51 PM · #1006 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Prism:
OK, one last kick at the cat with edits on this shot. I think I have a more realistic sky this time and have played around with spot editting to try and create what I hope is modeling as mentioned by bear_music. I also darkened the grass patch. Any comments?
tsheets,
what version of PaintShopPro are you working with? Both PSP9 and PSPX have a masking feature that works similarly to that described for Photoshop. The short cuts don't work, but if you create a duplicate layer, then use Layers->New Mask Layer->from image, you will create a group layer with a mask. Any adjustment layers below the mask are then affected by the mask. You can modify the mask using the eraser or by painting on it (varying shades of white to gray to black change opacity of the mask) |
Major improvemnet. As far as your gradient goes, I disagree with Steve; it's right in the ballpark now. It looks exaggerated in the thumbnail, but they always do. It looks pretty clear to me that what you have now is indeed a faded overlay gradient, correct?
R. |
Yes, the gradient layer is at 48%. I also did a little spot burn at the upper corners on another layer to darken them a bit. This layer was at 46% and I have now dropped it down to 40% which allows more of the gradient to be evident. |
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07/06/2006 02:21:49 PM · #1007 |
| this is an awesome thread.... even though im so late. |
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07/06/2006 09:43:17 PM · #1008 |
Mini-lesson - The joys of the 50% greyscale overlay layer
This mini-lesson was suggested by Bear_Music, our discussion leader. There is a practice lesson suggested at the end.
For those keeping track of these things usage of the 50% greyscale overlay layer is not legal in DPC basic editing just like Bear_Music's 'contrast mask' method is not. However, it is legal in advanced editing and the 'real' world.
In the areas of "Lighting, Exposure, & Composition in Landscape Photography" that this discussion is dedicated to this comes under the area of lighting (and color).
A 50% greyscale overlay layer is used for image highlighting, nothing more. It is used to add a little extra punch to images and produce added value attention to make it more appealing to viewers. It can be used to bring out detail in an image that the camera was unable to capture, but mostly is used to give an image more artistic appeal while maintaining basic image integrity. Often it is so subtle that it is not immediately noticeable to most viewers.
Overview
The 50% greyscale (grayscale) overlay layer is normally added as the top layer near the end of your post processing workflow AFTER you have made all the other 'normal' adjustments.
A 50% greyscale overlay layer in Photoshop is used for highlighting. There likely is similar functionality available within other photo editors but it may not work exactly the same. That is true of Gimp, don't know about others. See your photo editor documentation for details. This mini-lesson assumes Photoshop as the editor.
There are two main reasons to create and use a 50% greyscale overlay layer:
1-Dodge and burn
2-Color painting
Creating a 50% greyscale overlay layer in Photoshop
Creating a 50% greyscale layer is easy:
1-Select "Layer->New->Layer..."
2-In the 'Mode:' popup menu select "Overlay"
3-Check the "Fill with overlay-neutral color (50% gray)" box
The image does not change in any way. It appears exactly the same. It is how you use the 50% greyscale overlay layer that matters.
Dodge and Burn
Photoshop has two perfectly good tools for doing dodge and burn and they are OK. They have abilities and adjustments that make them desirable. The problem is they must be applied destructively on a data layer. They also are very easy to screw up with on a data layer and, once saved, are irrecoverable. They allow you to easily overdo it. That is where a 50% greyscale overlay layer works better. It has these advantages:
1-You do not modify or change a 'real' data layer
2-It merges well with existing images
3-It fundamentally is non-destructive
4-You can easily make modifications to your highlighting days or years after you have saved the file and forgotten about it
Here is how it works with dodge and burn after you have done the creation steps above...
First, you only use brushes and painting tools to apply changes to the 50% greyscale overlay layer when it is highlighted. Next, you only apply BLACK or WHITE colors to that layer. You need to make sure that black and white are the foreground and background colors before you start. In PS that is done by clicking the foreground/background icon once in the tools pallet. Also, you may choose modes other than 'normal' for the brush. Often 'darken' is selected for black or 'lighten' or 'vivid light' are chosen for white. You may chose other modes to suit your individual needs, but these work well for real world images.
Black is to burn, white is to dodge. You can switch colors between foreground and background by typing "Ctrl-X". The B&W colors come from the foreground or background colors in the "tools" pallet. They can be switched by you at any time.
Brush opacity around 10% for burn and a little less for dodge are good starting points for this method. You will change opacities to meet individual image needs. It is an aquired skill.
Color Painting
Color painting is similar to B&W dodge and burn but with this notable exception... You use a color OTHER than B&W and you normally make a color range selection first.
The purpose here is to enhance color in the original image. Nothing more, nothing less.
The main advantage of this method over adjustment layer color saturation such as Hue/Saturation or Selective Color is that new pixels are added to the image rather than having existing pixel colors exaggerated. This results in a more natural look with larger amounts of saturation without the negative side effects of existing pixel changes you get with other methods. The key to this method is your color range selection. A good selection works and a bad selection does not.
The way you do this is as follows:
1-Select "Selection->Color Range"
2-Use eyedropper tool to select the desired color or color range (with 'shift' key). Can be done from the image itself or from the 'color picker'. Colors from the image are best, but not essential.
3-Use 'Shift' key to add more than one color to selection if you want more than one color affected. Using the 'Shift' key and dragging to select more than one color is most common.
4-Save selection with a name for later use if necessary
5-Think about it and apply an appropriate feathering for your intended purpose. It differs depending on how you plan to use it.
6-With the eyedropper tool use the image itself or the 'color picker' to select the color you want to paint with.
7-With the selection active chose a brush size and opacity and paint away. Low opacities in the 10% range make a good starting point but can vary greatly with individual images.
You will want to practice with it to get a feel for what works best for you. The color selection limits where you paint so you do not have to be careful when you apply color painting. It will only paint within your selection.
Lesson - Apply to one of your own images and share with group
Apply dodge and burn or color painting using a 50% greyscale overlay layer to one of your own images and share it with the discussion group and explain in detail what you did.
Conclusions
The 50% greyscale overlay layer is a tool added to your post processing arsenal for touchup highlighting like dodge and burn or color enhancements.
The 50% greyscale overlay layer is normally added near the end of your workflow after other adjustments.
This method has several advantageous over others. First, it is a merge process. It combines the pixels added on the greyscale layer with the existing pixels of the image. That makes for a natural blend. Next, it is non-destructive. Further, it is a moderated adjustment to the image that often does not allow you to overdo the change like other tools do.
Try it, you might like it! Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I know that this SEEMS like extra work. In practice, though, it is very easy to apply. That is what new learning is all about.
Examples
Here are two simple examples from my own work:
Dodge and Burn(highlights):  ... Without Dodge and Burn:
Color painting(green):  ... Without color painting:
Message edited by author 2006-07-07 08:03:17.
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07/07/2006 11:56:08 AM · #1009 |
Wow, that's a very thorough lesson. Thanks, Steve!
Here's a quick-and-dirty stab at using the techniques, both a touch of the dodge/burn and some color work as well, PLUS using a black-to-transparent gradient top and a white-to-transparent gradient bottom, all done on the same overlay gray layer:
 (original with levels and hue/sat)
 (above image with gray overlay layer and numerous adjustments on it)
This is something I am going to experiment more with :-)
Robt.
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07/07/2006 01:24:00 PM · #1010 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
(original with levels and hue/sat}... (above image with gray overlay layer and numerous adjustments on it) |
You demonstrate the subtlety of the technique incredibly well.
I probably use the 50% greyscale overlay layer as often as you use contrast masking, maybe moreso. I'm addicted to highlighting and how it brings out existing qualities in an image. :) I probably would have toned down the orange in the lower right corner though to keep it from competing with the flower.
Message edited by author 2006-07-07 13:26:23.
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07/07/2006 01:31:39 PM · #1011 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
I probably would have toned down the orange in the lower right corner though to keep it from competing with the flower. |
Yah... I was just messing around. It was fascinating to see how a white-to-transparent gradient from the bottom up on the overlay layer brought out the colors and detail both.
Plus, what I found interesting was painting the bright part of the petals with diffuse yellow, then overpainting that again with diffuse pink, changing the actual coloring of the petals themselves..
R.
Message edited by author 2006-07-07 13:33:32.
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07/07/2006 01:39:17 PM · #1012 |
With 50% greyscale overlay layer: ... Without:
Here is the 50% greyscale overlay layer with dodge and burn and color painting highlighting I used on the above image...
Message edited by author 2006-07-07 14:01:04.
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07/07/2006 01:40:54 PM · #1013 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Yah... I was just messing around. It was fascinating to see how a white-to-transparent gradient from the bottom up on the overlay layer brought out the colors and detail both.
Plus, what I found interesting was painting the bright part of the petals with diffuse yellow, then overpainting that again with diffuse pink, changing the actual coloring of the petals themselves.. |
Amazing what a creative thinker can come up with.
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07/07/2006 01:42:41 PM · #1014 |
FWIW: why didn't you use the polygonal lasso to precisely select the church itself, so you wouldn't get that halo overlap into the sky? That bothers me quite a bit...
R.
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07/07/2006 01:48:52 PM · #1015 |
That's a good idea; here's my overlay layer on the flower shot:
Note that a black-to-transparent overlay was angled on top of the white-to-transparent in the lower left and then faded in edit/fade gradient to 40% or so :-)
R.
Message edited by author 2006-07-07 13:51:45.
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07/07/2006 02:05:44 PM · #1016 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
With 50% greyscale overlay layer: ... Without: |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
FWIW: why didn't you use the polygonal lasso to precisely select the church itself, so you wouldn't get that halo overlap into the sky? That bothers me quite a bit... |
Understood. Obviously, I could have done that. I already have a saved sky selection in that image. I was going for the religious "hand of God" effect. It didn't work. LOL!!!!!
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07/07/2006 02:10:23 PM · #1017 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Note that a black-to-transparent overlay was angled on top of the white-to-transparent in the lower left and then faded in edit/fade gradient to 40% or so :-) |
What I like about your overlay layer is how you used an angled gradient to expand what can be done with the technique. My limited linear thinking would probably make me put the gradient in its own separate layer.
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07/07/2006 02:12:15 PM · #1018 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Note that a black-to-transparent overlay was angled on top of the white-to-transparent in the lower left and then faded in edit/fade gradient to 40% or so :-) |
What I like about your overlay layer is how you used an angled gradient to expand what can be done with the technique. My limited linear thinking would probably make me put the gradient in its own separate layer. |
That's my next step; experiment with separate layers for dodge, burn, color, and gradient, all stacked, see how that works out.
R.
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07/07/2006 09:20:48 PM · #1019 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
What I like about your overlay layer is how you used an angled gradient to expand what can be done with the technique. My limited linear thinking would probably make me put the gradient in its own separate layer. |
To me, it makes much more sense to do gradients, D&B, and color painting each on separate layers. Much less destructive that way (see my paragraph on cloning below). In my example, I did d&b and color painting on the same layer and ran into some problems.
Also, a few tips I have for working with overlay layers:
-If at any time you need to view your overlay layer, simply change the blending mode of the layer to "normal." This is actually quite useful. For example, say that you would have liked to have used a softer brush, but you don't want to redo everything. You could view your overlay layer and selectively blur portions of the layer or even apply gaussian blur to the entire layer.
-If you want to get rid of an effect, simply change your brush to 50% gray and "paint" away the effect just like you would use the eraser tool. Use this same brush at a lower opacity to make the effect more subtle but not get rid of it completely.
-The clone stamp is also a very nice tool to use on the overlay layer to fix mistakes, etc. This usually works much better than the 50% brush technique above. Allow me to illustrate. Say for example that you have an image of a flower. You have dodged the entire image significantly and also painted some color onto the flower. You decide you want to get rid of the painted color. If you used the 50% brush technique to get rid of it, you would also be getting rid of the dodging done before and the result would be too dark. If, however, you used the clone stamp, you could be sure to get the right shades of gray in the flower. It's often best to do cloning while "viewing" the overlay layer in "normal" blending mode as described above. Of course, in this example it would be a better idea alltogether to do dodging & burning and color painting each on their own layer.
Anyway, here's my attempt at it. I have experimented with dodging and burning on an overlay layer quite extensively, but this is my first attempt at "color painting." I've also posted the overlay layer for reference:
Before:  After: 
Overlay Layer: 
Basic levels, etc. performed on both images. The only difference in the versions is the overlay layer was turned off in one save and not the other. Quite subtle, but look at them side by side to see the differences. As my overlay screen will show, my most significant use of color painting was to really bring out the brown in the log.
Granted, this image wasn't the best for experimenting with color painting, so I'll have to experiment with it some more.
Thoughts?
Message edited by author 2006-07-07 21:26:40.
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07/07/2006 11:14:09 PM · #1020 |
Justin,
That's good! Good post! For the record, Steve and I are definitely using a separate layer; in my case, I'm ready to start doing 4-5 overlay layers; one for dodge, one for burn, one for each color used, and one for gradients. Seems logical. I'll have to see how they interact with each other though.
R.
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07/08/2006 12:01:34 AM · #1021 |
| OK, that's it. I must come visit, Bear, and you must invite Steve and Justin at the same time. I swear there's more than I can learn from a simple text thread! :-) |
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07/08/2006 01:12:02 PM · #1022 |
Great greyscale overlay layer tips!
Like the subtlety of the greyscale changes you made to the image, especially with the color painting with browns. Notice how you paint with only one brown color, but that the blend with all the brown tones of the image is so natural?
Color painting's big advantage is it minimizes negative digital side effects that you get from other ways. That is why I started using it in the first place.
Does not look like you used a selection, at least a color range selection, for the color painting part. Correct me if I am wrong. I always do that. I usually pick a color or colors I want to stand out. If there is more than one color I want to highlight then obviously there is more than one color range selection. I use color range selections in order to capture all the tones in the color that I'm after without overlapping into other colors.
Message edited by author 2006-07-08 13:15:19.
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07/08/2006 02:06:25 PM · #1023 |
| Wow! Cool stuff, this color painting. I've been so busy I haven't had time to do much of anything photo wise. I do still pop my head in here a time or two a day and it's great to see this thread still going. I look forward to when work slows down a bit and I can jump back into the swing of things. Thanks to all the contributors! :) |
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07/08/2006 02:08:55 PM · #1024 |
Originally posted by error99:
Wow! Cool stuff, this color painting. I've been so busy I haven't had time to do much of anything photo wise. I do still pop my head in here a time or two a day and it's great to see this thread still going. I look forward to when work slows down a bit and I can jump back into the swing of things. Thanks to all the contributors! :) |
Nice thing about these latest lessons is you can resurrect old images and give them a makeover, then show us original, as first edited, and latest edit: a great learning tool.
R.
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07/08/2006 02:27:20 PM · #1025 |
Btw... here is another little trick using a 50% greyscale overlay layer for dodge and burn you might want to use with COLOR images:
1-Add a throw away Channel Mixer adjustment layer on top and check the "monochrome" box to make it B&W.
This layer is intended help you more accurately apply dodge and burn to a COLOR image. If you do not intend to create a B&W version of the image this layer is tossed at the end.
The reason to create it is that it is a lot easier to see dodge and burn effects in a B&W image than it is in a color one. In color people tend to be a lot sloppier with dodge and burn. Do your dodge and burn with a throw away Channel Mixer monochrome layer and you you will do a better job.
Message edited by author 2006-07-08 14:28:04.
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