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07/02/2006 12:41:08 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Rikki:
Originally posted by coolhar:
And what makes cycling the "classiest sport on earth" anyway? That's the first time I've heard that line. |
If you don't ride, you won't understand. |
I won't debate that; it's a "classy" sport by my definition, I find it fascinating to watch the respect with which these people treat each other. But I'd submit that GOLF is the classiest of all sports. Heck, they even call rule infractions on themselves :-)
R.
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07/02/2006 01:08:38 PM · #52 |
The suspensions have been issued based on possible associations with the lab in question. None of the riders has so far been proven to have used any of the EPO or steroids or blood packing at the lab. So far. Vino' team passed an appeals ruling, but the Tour still would not let them ride. He is out and has not been accused of having been involved. There are said to be over 200 atheletes involved in the investigations but so far only cyclists have been named- about 50 of them. Jan has to feel cursed. He came up as the hot new young rider and won the Tour. Then Lance Armstrong came along and won the next seven. Jan was second five times and I think third once. Now Lance is out so he figures this is his chance to get back again. He trains harder in the off season than ever before. Then the scandal breaks. Again, he has not been proven to have violated anything- just being close with his coach (who was arrested and charged) is all he is guilty of at this time- but he has been told that he will not be able to ride. The burden of proof is on him at this time and it is hard to prove you never did anything. Armstrong had his own relationship with a questionable person involved in doping athletes- a doctor. But as top riders who are usually on the podium they both are constantly tested and know that they will be tested. They would not knowingly (hopefully) do anything to jeopardize their careers.
Cycling has some amazing restrictions. You cannot use certain creams to prevent/ cure saddle sores or you could get kicked out. Take the wrong medicine for a cold- bye bye. A few riders are alergic to bee stings (which can happen if you ride through some) and if they take some medicine for that, they can be kicked out. Don't take it, and their health or even lives could be in danger. Have an herbal tea after a race? Forget it- might include a banned substance. Granted, the latest scandal does not involve any of these minor cases, but nobody banned from this Tour has been found guilty of anything yet.
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07/02/2006 02:09:24 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I won't debate that; it's a "classy" sport by my definition, I find it fascinating to watch the respect with which these people treat each other. But I'd submit that GOLF is the classiest of all sports. Heck, they even call rule infractions on themselves :-)
R. |
I really doubt that a sport (golf) that adds more chemical pollutants to the environment than agriculture can be considered classy.
Maybe I was disillusioned calling cycling a classic sport when it has fans with cheezy cardboard hands cutting competitors.
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07/02/2006 02:19:32 PM · #54 |
The hand was given out by a race sponsor- the fan didn't bring it with them.
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07/02/2006 02:39:44 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by JeffryZ:
A few riders are alergic to bee stings (which can happen if you ride through some) and if they take some medicine for that, they can be kicked out. |
Sorry Jeffry, this tells me you don't know what you are talking about...
EDIT: OK, I'm not going to change this, but perhaps I don't know what I'M talking about. Treating a wasp sting with corticosteroids might be necessary if you were allergic, but really it makes little sense to me (not the treatment, but the banning of corticosteroids). corticosteroids are quite different from anabolic steroids, so maybe I should just say the rules make little sense.
Message edited by author 2006-07-02 14:43:52. |
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07/02/2006 02:43:21 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JeffryZ:
A few riders are alergic to bee stings (which can happen if you ride through some) and if they take some medicine for that, they can be kicked out. |
Sorry Jeffry, this tells me you don't know what you are talking about... |
I think Jeffrey is talking about what happened to Jonathan Vaughters in the 1998 Tour. He was stung by a bee during a downhill ride and since his body reacted to the bee sting, his eyes were forced shut. If they would have administered the drug to reduce the swelling, he would have tested positive. As a result, he was forced to abandon the Tour. |
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07/02/2006 02:45:20 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Rikki:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JeffryZ:
A few riders are alergic to bee stings (which can happen if you ride through some) and if they take some medicine for that, they can be kicked out. |
Sorry Jeffry, this tells me you don't know what you are talking about... |
I think Jeffrey is talking about what happened to Jonathan Vaughters in the 1998 Tour. He was stung by a bee during a downhill ride and since his body reacted to the bee sting, his eyes were forced shut. If they would have administered the drug to reduce the swelling, he would have tested positive. As a result, he was forced to abandon the Tour. |
Ya, I went searching AFTER I made the accusation (always a good idea...not). Anyway, again, from a medical point of view, it makes little sense to me. But I guess maybe the restrictions ARE too strict. I can tell you nobody is gaining any competitive edge by taking prednisone... |
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07/02/2006 02:49:04 PM · #58 |
| Sorry Doc, this tells me you DON'T know what you are talking about :P |
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07/02/2006 11:56:06 PM · #59 |
First ubique what did Australia do before the ref gave an early Christmas gift to the Australian by given a red card to Matarazzi? One shot on net in 55 minutes. Who had control of the match even with only 10 players?
For the Tour, really people do you actually think that Lance was not on something?
Not only heâs faster then regular cyclist but he is also better then cyclist on drugs. âRightâ
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07/03/2006 12:14:34 AM · #60 |
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07/03/2006 12:58:23 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by mario333:
For the Tour, really people do you actually think that Lance was not on something?
Not only heâs faster then regular cyclist but he is also better then cyclist on drugs. âRightâ |
Do you ride? There's a thing called cadence. Lance is smart. Lower gear. More strength and power later. There's also his team. Drafting in front of somone saves 20% of your energy. Imagine sitting behind a team of 8.
Dozens of accusations. No concrete proof. Until anyone proves otherwise, he's one of the greatest cyclists ever.
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07/03/2006 01:01:32 AM · #62 |
| lance was just an incredible athlete his whole life. He also has much larger than average lungs which can't hurt. I believe he was clean, and he is truely an inspirational hero. |
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07/03/2006 01:07:00 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by kyebosh:
lance was just an incredible athlete his whole life. He also has much larger than average lungs which can't hurt. I believe he was clean, and he is truely an inspirational hero. |
Here are some facts.
1. His heart can beat over 200 times a minute. Which means his heart can pump blood and oxygen more. Where most cyclists hit the threshold at 190 bpm, Lance is just entering his threshold. Threshold is where the lactic acids build up in the muscles and the body can go any further.
2. Lance's resting heart rate is 28 bpm. That's insane!
Here are more interesting facts. |
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07/03/2006 01:14:26 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by Rikki:
Originally posted by kyebosh:
lance was just an incredible athlete his whole life. He also has much larger than average lungs which can't hurt. I believe he was clean, and he is truely an inspirational hero. |
Here are some facts.
1. His heart can beat over 200 times a minute. Which means his heart can pump blood and oxygen more. Where most cyclists hit the threshold at 190 bpm, Lance is just entering his threshold. Threshold is where the lactic acids build up in the muscles and the body can go any further.
2. Lance's resting heart rate is 28 bpm. That's insane!
Here are more interesting facts. |
For somebody his age 200 is pretty good, I used to train with some people who's max was around 212 but they were pretty young. The number goes down when you get older. 28bpm is pretty insane! |
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07/03/2006 01:23:31 AM · #65 |
Lance Armstrong is a special case. I don't know if he ever took drugs but I have an idea why he is so good at cycling. He is a cancer survivor who underwent a particularly difficult treatment regimen. His body was severely reduced in weight and strength. After this he began a specialized program to rebuild himself in the very image of a cycling machine, special exercises designed to rebuild his musculature so that it would be perfect for racing, with a specialized diet matched to enhance his new physique. He may have used dope but I doubt it. And even if he did, it would have largely served only to even the field for him versus all the other riders who were doping. But they couldn't match his customized body.
Just my two cents.
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07/03/2006 01:29:08 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Lance Armstrong is a special case. I don't know if he ever took drugs but I have an idea why he is so good at cycling. He is a cancer survivor who underwent a particularly difficult treatment regimen. His body was severely reduced in weight and strength. After this he began a specialized program to rebuild himself in the very image of a cycling machine, special exercises designed to rebuild his musculature so that it would be perfect for racing, with a specialized diet matched to enhance his new physique. He may have used dope but I doubt it. And even if he did, it would have largely served only to even the field for him versus all the other riders who were doping. But they couldn't match his customized body.
Just my two cents. |
Amen Harvey.
He is still the strong guy who won the World Championships in '93. Back then, he was brash and arrogant. After his battle with cancer, he lost weight but still had the same power and more due to a more disciplined training regimen ;)
Before cancer:
After cancer:
Big difference eh? |
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07/03/2006 01:35:40 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Rikki:
Originally posted by coolhar:
And what makes cycling the "classiest sport on earth" anyway? That's the first time I've heard that line. |
If you don't ride, you won't understand. |
I won't debate that; it's a "classy" sport by my definition, I find it fascinating to watch the respect with which these people treat each other. But I'd submit that GOLF is the classiest of all sports. Heck, they even call rule infractions on themselves :-)
R. |
Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the leader slow down if a rival has fallen or has a temporary problem with his bike?
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07/03/2006 01:35:58 AM · #68 |
Here's another interesting fact....
Salbutamol (and other beta-2 agonists) are banned by WADA, except when administered by inhalation for approved therapeutic purposes. In other words, it's OK only if you're an asthmatic. Figures released after a Tour in the mid-late 90's revealed that apparently 50-60% (I forget the exact figure) of the riders were asthmatic! The amount of testing in cycling is up to scratch - it's often the sport's response to positives that is a joke.
Q. |
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07/03/2006 01:41:47 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Rikki:
Originally posted by coolhar:
And what makes cycling the "classiest sport on earth" anyway? That's the first time I've heard that line. |
If you don't ride, you won't understand. |
I won't debate that; it's a "classy" sport by my definition, I find it fascinating to watch the respect with which these people treat each other. But I'd submit that GOLF is the classiest of all sports. Heck, they even call rule infractions on themselves :-)
R. |
Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the leader slow down if a rival has fallen or has a temporary problem with his bike? |
If the Yellow jersey is in trouble or has to make a "call of nature", the entire peloton slows down and his teammates fall back to wait and draft him back into the front.
In 2001, Lance was wearing Yellow and he and Jan Ulrich were speeding downhill. Ulrich tried to put some distance between he and Lance and mis-read a sharp left hand turn. He went straight into a ditch narrowly escaping the embankment. Lance saw the accident and decided to stand up on the bike. Standing up means he's not on the handle bars. Instead he sat up and waited for Jan to get back on the bike. Jan was his closest rival in terms of time ( a minute or so behind Lance). Lance's answer when asked by reporters on why he sat up was "Jan is my closest rival. If I sped on and left him, it wouldn't be sportsman-like of me to do that".
That folks is what the Yellow jersey stands for ;) |
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07/03/2006 01:46:03 AM · #70 |
Lance regained all his weight after his bout with cancer. I do not think of chemo for testicular cancer to be particularly "brutal", but I will claim only a passing knowledge here.
The journal article in Journal of Applied Physiology, where a lot of this data comes from, was seriously called into question by colleagues with doubts to its veracity.
This is just the skeptic in me, always champing at the bit, nothing against Lance. |
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07/03/2006 08:38:00 AM · #71 |
| Denial is an ugly thing, Iâm sure that Lance is superman and all kinds of explanations are good to defend an American. Tell that to Greg Lemon and ask him what he thinks about Lance (by the way Greg is also American and the 1990 Tour de France winner). âCadenceâ thatâs a good one, did you read that in his book. Yes Iâm a cyclist and an instructor so I do not think I need for you to explain me about cadence, no matter how you try to spin it it does not make sense. So the French, Belgium, Italian journalists that follow the sport side by side with the cyclist know less than you watching the Tour on your sofa. OK |
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07/03/2006 08:54:09 AM · #72 |
Hey- everyone take a deep breath. Pretty please don't start this thread into a bash fest directed at anyone- users, Lance, Jan etc.
I started the thread, and as the user who opened it, I have no problem at all having SC lock it if it gets out of hand. This is an issue that good people can agree to disagree on.
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07/03/2006 09:06:45 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JeffryZ:
A few riders are alergic to bee stings (which can happen if you ride through some) and if they take some medicine for that, they can be kicked out. |
Sorry Jeffry, this tells me you don't know what you are talking about...
EDIT: OK, I'm not going to change this, but perhaps I don't know what I'M talking about. Treating a wasp sting with corticosteroids might be necessary if you were allergic, but really it makes little sense to me (not the treatment, but the banning of corticosteroids). corticosteroids are quite different from anabolic steroids, so maybe I should just say the rules make little sense. |
Doc- epi is banned by the UCI. So if you have an allergic reaction you can't use most epi based products. That includes a slew of allergy meds. :) So we do actually indeed know what we are talking about. The steroid cream was a seperate issue. That would be used for saddle sores.
The testing doesn't care what you are using. It's looking for steroids- not just anabolic.
The rules make little sense unless you've been watching the sport long enought to learn what people have used to gain an edge. Heck, even caffiene is on the banned list. Too much caffiene gives an edge in several different sports. (to be specific you have to be over a specific level of caffiene)
Silly, but the rules exist that way becasue at some point in time someone has used/abused the substance.
Lance's EPO test is in question because proper testing processes were not followed. There's no way to independantly verify the results, and because of how it was done the impartiality has been called into question.
Again, Lance's drug/not drug status can be debated until the cows come home. His temper can not be debated. :)
Personal feeling- I think he doped before the cancer. Post, I do not think he did. Based on discussions with cancer survivors you have such a fear of doing anything to bring it back, most of them don't want to risk it. More importantly, he had much, much more to lose if he was caught doping than he had to gain. Again, I'm not omnipotent and I'm not a telepath. Good people can and will disagree on this. :) |
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07/03/2006 09:10:38 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by blemt:
Again, I'm not omnipotent and I'm not a telepath. Good people can and will disagree on this. :) |
On which count? That you're not omnipotent or telepathic or that Lance doped or not?
:P |
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07/03/2006 09:12:53 AM · #75 |
My frustration is without fail the cycling scandals hit when the Tour de France the worlds biggest showpiece for the sport occurs, this is not a coincidence and puts great pressure on all parties to take action rapidly without a fair process, it takes massive amounts of sponsorship to run a proffesional team and the sponsors have got very jumpy about any drug alligations.
It's a big shame so much doubt is thrown over one of the purest and simplist man against man sports.
I shall now return to the live updates on the event.
Pete
Message edited by author 2006-07-03 09:15:26. |
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