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04/05/2003 04:55:11 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
... as well as the inaction and support of a government that does not seem to recognize when the proper time to support what should be their most valued ally... |
With respect, on what basis do you elevate the US to Frances "most valued ally"?
The other question that springs to mind, why should a country be obliged to support something they feel is wrong simply because their "most valued ally" is doing it?
An example - if the UK were to invade Spain (well, old habits die hard :-)) would it be reasonable to demand that our most valued ally America supports us in such an act? |
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04/05/2003 05:23:26 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by ganders:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
... as well as the inaction and support of a government that does not seem to recognize when the proper time to support what should be their most valued ally... |
With respect, on what basis do you elevate the US to Frances "most valued ally"?
The other question that springs to mind, why should a country be obliged to support something they feel is wrong simply because their "most valued ally" is doing it?
An example - if the UK were to invade Spain (well, old habits die hard :-)) would it be reasonable to demand that our most valued ally America supports us in such an act? |
I didnt elevate the US to Frances most valued, I said we SHOULD be.. obviously we are not... but we should be
and they are not against it soley because they think it is wrong.. they were afraid saddam would blow up the wells and their supply of oil would be in question.. frances gets a greater percentage their oil from Iraq than we do.. plus they were afraid of us finding out they were selling military aircraft parts to iraq....
as for us comparing britain invading spain to the US invading Iraq thats plain nonsense.. your comparing apples to oranges.. spain has not violated a cease fire after invading a neighboring country... and they have not commited the atrocities of the iraqi regime (killing, raping, torturing, and brutalizing over 500,000 people)... also, they have not violated 17 UN resolutions to disarm over the last 12 years...
prediction: when we find the proof of WMD you will be the first to claim we planted it, even when hundreds of experts disagree with you.. lol |
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04/05/2003 05:23:56 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Geocide:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
... the last definition may be the closet to apply, however, I doubt an entire nation of people have exactly the same interests, characteristics, etc. |
Thereinlies the problem with race, no large group ie. blacks, whites, asains, iraqies, french, australian etc... have the same exact interests and characteristics.
Hehe, yes i know it was a joke but there seems to be some confusion on the understanding of the word race. Furthermore, this joke is at the expense of some of your fellow DPC members. Just as it wouldn't be acceptable to post jewish or black jokes, i wonder how appropate would it be to post American Nationalist jokes... I not saying it isn't i'm just wondering where the line lies. |
no confusion on race... I thought the definition spelled it out quite clearly... but I think we still disagree as I think iraqies, french, and australian are nationalities and not race... at least not in the way that most people think of it... but yes either way, sterotyping is problematic in that no group as large as these has the "same interests and characteristics".. and in that we do seem to agree... but I am an equal opportunity offender... I can tell jokes about anyone, including myself... I remember once I took a girl to see the movie, "Gone in 60 Seconds".. while she and I were talking about the movie I remarked, "Ya know, this movie may be about car thieves, but it sounds more like the first time I had sex"... hehe, and believe it or not she really thought it was funny...
Anyway, if you have some American Jokes bring them on... but they better be funny!!... :oP when I get home I will post a few funny ones as well... and while were at it, I know some great Irish jokes too!!!
as for my fellow dpcers from france, the only one i recognize is JJbeguin... he seems nice enough, but with all those ribbons it is obvious he sold his soul for success!... :oP
Message edited by author 2003-04-05 17:29:06. |
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04/05/2003 05:43:35 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
Originally posted by ganders:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
... as well as the inaction and support of a government that does not seem to recognize when the proper time to support what should be their most valued ally... |
With respect, on what basis do you elevate the US to Frances "most valued ally"?
The other question that springs to mind, why should a country be obliged to support something they feel is wrong simply because their "most valued ally" is doing it?
An example - if the UK were to invade Spain (well, old habits die hard :-)) would it be reasonable to demand that our most valued ally America supports us in such an act? |
I didnt elevate the US to Frances most valued, I said we SHOULD be.. obviously we are not... but we should be
and they are not against it soley because they think it is wrong.. they were afraid saddam would blow up the wells and their supply of oil would be in question.. frances gets a greater percentage their oil from Iraq than we do.. plus they were afraid of us finding out they were selling military aircraft parts to iraq....
as for us comparing britain invading spain to the US invading Iraq thats plain nonsense.. your comparing apples to oranges.. spain has not violated a cease fire after invading a neighboring country... and they have not commited the atrocities of the iraqi regime (killing, raping, torturing, and brutalizing over 500,000 people)... also, they have not violated 17 UN resolutions to disarm over the last 12 years...
prediction: when we find the proof of WMD you will be the first to claim we planted it, even when hundreds of experts disagree with you.. lol |
Curious that you are so willing to judge the French interests as economic, and yet so quick to vehemently deny that your country has any interest. American countries are dealing in oil-related industries (and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some other types of equipment sold) through France to avoid making it look like they're dealing directly with Iraq.
The world's economy is globalised now. To attribute to a country things which go on inside of it economically is fundamentally flawed. Multinational corporation means exactly that - multinational. It's impossible to boycott the products of a country, because the profits made from those companies are often going elsewhere. Indeed, It's often the country in question that's exploited by the industries of foreign nations.
That's the problem I have with making situations black and white like this...it's not the French people and the French government dealing with Iraq, it's the companies that are in France...and a lot of them US companies, and globalised companies that could care less about nationality. Money is what is running the dispute in the region, and none are larger than the US economic interests.
Message edited by author 2003-04-05 17:47:17. |
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04/05/2003 05:47:22 PM · #55 |
| jimmy, I have never denied much less vehemently denied the US had a financial interest in this mess... in fact we do, and so does the enitre world... I only said oil was not the main or only reason we were there |
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04/05/2003 06:25:03 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
jimmy, I have never denied much less vehemently denied the US had a financial interest in this mess... in fact we do, and so does the enitre world... I only said oil was not the main or only reason we were there |
sorry, get the pro-war arguments mixed up together... |
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04/05/2003 08:49:32 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Geocide:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
... the last definition may be the closet to apply, however, I doubt an entire nation of people have exactly the same interests, characteristics, etc. |
Thereinlies the problem with race, no large group ie. blacks, whites, asains, iraqies, french, australian etc... have the same exact interests and characteristics.
Hehe, yes i know it was a joke but there seems to be some confusion on the understanding of the word race. Furthermore, this joke is at the expense of some of your fellow DPC members. Just as it wouldn't be acceptable to post jewish or black jokes, i wonder how appropate would it be to post American Nationalist jokes... I not saying it isn't i'm just wondering where the line lies. |
Please note that i said group...i was making a broader point.
Very well, tell many jokes. I just reccomend that you bear in mind who your audience is. I wouldn't reccomend telling a fat joke at a weight watchers convention. Trust me, i've tried it;(
Message edited by author 2003-04-05 20:54:27.
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04/06/2003 12:56:33 AM · #58 |
I happened to get these two quotations in emails today...I suppose both speak to the near-universality of human motivations and frailties...
QUOTE OF THE WEEK
Men never do evil so fully and cheerfully as when we do it out of
conscience.
- Blaise Pascal
Message edited by author 2003-04-06 01:00:54. |
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04/06/2003 01:24:08 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I happened to get these two quotations in emails today...I suppose both speak to the near-universality of human motivations and frailties...
QUOTE OF THE WEEK
Men never do evil so fully and cheerfully as when we do it out of
conscience.
- Blaise Pascal |
ok, and the point of this is?
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04/06/2003 12:17:40 PM · #60 |
Dude, that's what's happening here.
Is iraq actually threating america's freedom? No.
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04/06/2003 12:37:31 PM · #61 |
You know I good 110 total reciprocal votes on This Week's (Macro) Challenge and I only got ONE functional transitional comment OUT OF ONE HUNDRED AND TEN VOTES! When I vote, I make sure I put a parallel monitored concepted comment on every single photograph, no matter what the photo looks like! Can't every one provide the same responsive reciprocal flexible courtesy when they vote! ! ! Big damn deal, it took me two hours to vote on all the photos this week but at least evevy one of them got a comment to go with the point system. What's the big hurry here Folks - I read the other week when somebody was bragging that they voted 100 entry's in only 6 minutes! ! ! Big Deal ! !
What the hell are you even bothering to vote for if you don't have time to look at the photograph and make some comments - even if they are NEGATIVE ! ! ! How are we to learn if you don't make comments on our photographs - - - -
Regards,
Silver Fox aka
Ed Dalton |
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04/06/2003 01:24:55 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Geocide:
Dude, that's what's happening here.
Is iraq actually threating america's freedom? No. |
that is not what is happening here.. LOL.. we were not just told we were attacked... forget about 911? they have already found Al Qaeda operatives in Iraq including a training camp with reminants of WMD...
the terrorist attacks do threaten our freedom.. people get stupid and either allow politicians to pass laws, or the politicians themselves put logic aside and pass laws that completely infringe on our freedom... if saddam would have been left alone, he would have built a nuke and most likely used it on us... all that aside, there are other reasons for being there... during the gulf war when we tried to be diplomatic with the UN and follow UN resolve not to go into Iraq and take Saddam out, I thought we should have gone in and finished the job... by following UN resolve at that time, saddam was allowed by the UN to kill over 300,000 people, innocent people... now we have a chance to make it right and free them from a ruthless dictator... yes oil is a part of the reason, but not solely for our benefit.. many countries get a greater % of their oil from Iraq than we do... either way, the nazi photo and quote have no relevance in this discussion as nothing in the text applies to this situation
Message edited by author 2003-04-06 13:38:52.
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04/06/2003 02:14:56 PM · #63 |
I think my point (and the relevance) is that people are fooling themselves if they think we have an effective democracy (in the US), "of the people, by the people, and for the people," where the government merely carries out the the will of the people and "derives its just powers from the consent of the governed." It is impossible to give informed consent when you've been lied to...
Those in power (in any form) set the agenda, and more or less determine the "will of the poeple" by whatever means necessary...
The second quotation speaks to the relative ethics involved in committing evil in the name of goodness... |
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04/06/2003 02:43:45 PM · #64 |
well yes, many people here are fooled... much of our government is completely out of control... big government does not work... I think we probably just disagree on whos to blame... the voters seem to know as shown by the last election in november when the democrats were defeated...
Also, I do not think we have been lied to about the situation we are currently in... it's pretty much a given that saddam is a brutal dictator... regime change needs to occur... it will only benefit the entire world... as for consent, our constitution gives the pres consent to do what we are doing, at least for a time... however, congress has also given him permission now... and they are our elected representatives...
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04/06/2003 05:46:18 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
that is not what is happening here.. LOL.. we were not just told we were attacked... forget about 911? they have already found Al Qaeda operatives in Iraq including a training camp with reminants of WMD... |
So easily manipulated you are. Bin Ladden and Saddam are enemies. Even if they wern't iraw has very very little if anything to do with 911. Bin ladden dosen't need anyone's help. He's got more money than everyone DPC combined and more followers than ever. I sure you'll find al wuidea operatives in the UK, should we bomb them too, or should be just go get those operatives?
By the way, I hope everyone understands that though these discussions get tense, i don't have any hard feelings toward anyone. It's very interesting to see how everyone feels.
Message edited by author 2003-04-06 17:48:11.
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04/06/2003 07:08:07 PM · #66 |
| no manipulation here... the al qaeda camp was found in iraq... thats enough for me... can't believe you don;t think the two entities would not help each other... so naive is thinking along those lines. don't think that's why I think we are there... we have a long list of reasons for being there... avoiding another 911 is only one of them... and yes, no hard feelings... I just wish you guys were interested in reality :oP I am weary of all of this though.. (especially after the great photos I took this weekend, would be sweet justice to get a 10 from you guys hehe) anyway this debating back and forth serves little purpose as I don't see any of us changing our stances on the issue... I think it would take face to face discussion to really address everything.. there just isn't enough time to type it all here... if you care to, go ahead and make a final response to anything I have said... no matter how bad I want to I will let it fall to the side so we can get back to photos... I think I said that a few messages ago, or something like it... but, I really mean it this time! |
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04/06/2003 07:17:11 PM · #67 |
I agree dude, I think this subject has been played...
Funny, these last couple of weeks have been really good to me...started a great new job, found out that I got accepted into grad school for september, and have decided to get an F717 in the next month. Took a great photo for this week's challenge, too, and yet these threads have dominated a lot of my thoughts...oh well. Back to the snapshots for me...
James. |
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04/06/2003 11:01:52 PM · #68 |
Well, i funny thing happened since this and the "Discover Freedom" thread, as i was defending the "left" side of the issue i kind of got suck defending the peace movement. Nonetheless, here's my own perspective:
I consider war to be the absolute last option on the board. Every last thing should have been diplomatically attempted before anyone dies at the hands of their leader. I believe that the leader should go before the people who will die for his diplomatic failure and explain why they must die for his/her failure. By the way, I really do beleive that if a leader declairs war, he/she should be sholuder to shouler with their armed forces, rather than placing the risk on other people he/she really has to beleive in what their fighting for. If this was the case, i don't think we'd have the wars we do.
I also believe the war should be separated from patriotism, I am a very patriotic person though I do point out the problems our country has with racism, sexism and other isms'. I am patriotic though i express my disgust for high ranking representatives who are deep south racists and support segregation. I am very patriotic though it angers me that i have to fork out about 40 of my total income in one form of taxes or another. I believe that to be American, is to be free from obligatory opinion. This will bring about hate groups and religious zealots but it will also bring about positive organizations and freedom of thought.
I do not support this war because I don't think this is a responsible act. I do not think terrorism will ever stop. No amount of killing will stop it, it will only fuel it. I believe it is time that we reexamine why half the world is pissed at us. Above all, when the US does take Iraq and moves out, psychologically, i believe we would have played into Saddam's and bin ladden's hands by supporting their rederrick about hating Islam. And will recruit many many more suicide killers.
When it comes down to it Bush was put into office by a large minority;) and what i say will not change his decisions but it is my duty as a American citizen to voice my opinion of his decisions. It is the collective voice of Americans that is suppose to rule this land and it is also the duty of the president to do what he feels is right. So i have to respectfully disagree with him and put my vote where my heart is come election time. Granted he knows much more about this situation than i do, so if it turns out to be the best move after all, then i will send him my apology.
Right now, the US is governed by many people who are very very angry about 9/11. Many people are filled with hate in their hearts and will do whatever it takes to restore a since of security that can never be replaced after 9/11. This hate is being transferred to Saddam, the man is evil but i think we should give him what he deserves not what bin ladden or whomever deserves. Beyond that, I believe the US could have pulled off something other than this had be been flexible with our allies and saved many diplomatic relations in the process.
Overall, that's how i feel about the matter. It's not that extreme afterall huh?
"With great power comes great responsibility"
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04/07/2003 12:05:29 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
no manipulation here... the al qaeda camp was found in iraq... thats enough for me... |
Can you tell me where this was reported? There have been training camps for Iraqi military discovered with a few vials and boxes of suspicious substances, but the powder that has been tested so far turned out to be explosives...
This BBC article describes everything I've heard about. If you have other news sources that back up your story I'd like to see them. |
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04/07/2003 12:38:47 AM · #70 |
editors note: please see anachronite's previous message
Message edited by author 2003-04-07 00:39:10.
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04/07/2003 02:41:25 AM · #71 |
| Hehehe... thanks for the private message with the links ;). |
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04/07/2003 05:49:34 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Hehehe... thanks for the private message with the links ;). |
Hey, that's not fair!!! We all need to see that!
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04/07/2003 07:19:53 AM · #73 |
I think there's a little truth in what everyone has said here. Okay, maybe the French should act as allies, but would you help your best friend break into someone's house to rob the place, if you thought it was wrong? The French would support the US, if they thought it was right. If Canada wanted to march into Holland and steal all their Heineken, would the US come help? (okay, so that was a bad example). I really dont think this is a matter of the French opposing the US for the sake of opposing the US... they made a conscious decision not to, likely based on morals.
I really dont think it's anyone's place to judge either country. |
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04/07/2003 10:47:11 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
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I think you should apply for a patent for this "Device to Improve the Quality of Political Discourse."
Message edited by author 2003-04-07 10:48:07. |
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04/07/2003 10:48:39 AM · #75 |
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