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06/12/2006 04:23:07 PM · #26 |
I was working on a photo assignment for school, and was at a general avation airport, attempting to get some motion shots of moving aircraft (mind you, not a great day for it, and actually seen nothing). As I left, I seen a police car do a 180 and follow me. I KNEW that they were going to stop me, it was a matter of where. I turned onto the main highway and got lit up, not by just the one following me, but one other. Mind you, it is just me and my nine year old son.
The officer came up to my window, told me someone thought I was suspicous and called them (which I suspect is not true, he prob seen me and wanted to check on what I was doing). I explained what I was doing, showed him a copy of my assignment from school, he ran my info and let me go with no issues. He was very professional and polite and I cannot fault him for it. I even went as far to write the chief of police commedning the way the officer treated me in this incident.
The on going joke of my class was that I should shave (mind you I only have a small goatee SOMETIMES) and not wear a turbin out in public (I dont even wear a hat)
Its not a fun world for photographers, but we surely are going to have to fight for our rights, but its worth it.
Now, if only Nikon made a white lens so I could look "professional". |
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06/12/2006 04:27:09 PM · #27 |
Certain shots at certain angles of certain miltary equipment might expose weak points or weaknesses which could lead to people dying. Or if certain access doors are open there are things in there that are not public information. It's possible that's why photos were deleted. That or the MP thought they were too artistic!
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06/12/2006 06:59:08 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Originally posted by terje:
I was stopped by military in Iraq, and they asked to see *all* my photos. They deleted a few shots of military tanks and other miltiary equipment.
No idea what my rights are, but I'm not about to say no to a bunch of guys with automatic weapons. |
Like they'd actually shoot you. the press is constantly shooting military equipment etc. during wars - including award winning shots of the military doing wrong over the years. The military is not all powerful over civilian photographers and they still have to obey the law. |
I never think they would have done that. I wasn't here as a photgrapher but on vacation with my girlfriend. And I didn't feel like arguing with them, especially knowing how poor their english was at the time.
Hope that clear things up.
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06/12/2006 07:08:05 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by robs:
Besides, deleting individual images is pointless because it's just pretending again - just recover them once you get the card in a computer. |
In an earlier thread on this subject, someone mentioned that he kept the original (tiny, useless) memory card which came with the camera for just such occasionns -- if they insist on confiscating the photos, just give them the "extra" card -- preferably with a copy of the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence on it ... or a "photo" of some text which says If you can read this, then you've violated someone's Constitutional rights : ) |
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06/12/2006 07:15:14 PM · #30 |
| I'm a law student and the father of a police officer in Philadelphia, pa. the law here states regarding cameras is similear to a backpack or a glove compartment of a car. What a police officer needs is "probable cause" which states that an officer is more likely then not to believe that a crime has taken place. Now if the officer believes that you are using your camera to break the law, then he can force you to show him your images. He can not force you to delete your images for any reason. Also if you are being arrested for another reason he can search through your camera using a justification called "incident to arrest" which states that a person is allowed to be searched before they are arrested. |
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06/12/2006 07:19:11 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
Here in our town, maybe thought out Georgia, yes a police official has the right to view your pictures. If stopped by the police and they have probable cause to believe you may have taken inappropriate pictures they have the lawful right to search your vehicle and any contents in it or on your person. Of course you have the right to deny them the right to search but it will earn you a trip to police headquarters where you will be interrogated by a detective. You have the right to not to talk until you retain a lower under your Miranda warning but that will earn you time behind bars until your attorney arrives.
This information was given to me by a Lt. at the police department. So it's best just to show them your pictures. If any of the complaining parties wish for your to delete the pictures, do so. |
I was questioned in waycross GA for photographing some rail road tracks. a couple of cars showed up but they were all nice and didn't even ask to see the photos, just asked me some questions. He actually told me "when you are done taking your photos, I would like to ask you some questions"
as far as taking your memory card, some higher end cameras hold two cards and wrtie to both at once so you would still have all the photos. |
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06/12/2006 07:34:16 PM · #32 |
The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads as follows:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
The search and seizure provisions of the Fourth Amendment are all about privacy. To honor this freedom, the Fourth Amendment protects against "unreasonable" searches and seizures by state or federal law enforcement authorities.
The flip side is that the Fourth Amendment does permit searches and seizures that are considered reasonable. In practice, this means that the police may override your privacy concerns and conduct a search of your home, barn, car, boat, office, personal or business documents, bank account records, trash barrel, or whatever, if:
The police have probable cause to believe they can find evidence that you committed a crime, and a judge issues a search warrant.
I just called my buddy who is a Maricopa County Sheriff detective and he says the cop needs a warrant no matter what! It is like searching a computer or cell phone it still requires a Judge to sign off on a warrant.
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06/12/2006 07:41:46 PM · #33 |
even if you do delete your photos, you can probably still recover them with the right software.
I know I have.
And I nearly got kicked out of a Tom Jones concert for trying to take pictures of the legend.
Message edited by author 2006-06-12 19:41:57.
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06/12/2006 08:12:08 PM · #34 |
I ask because I am an aviation photographer and have been stopped about 3 dozen times.... I have had every reaction you could imagine including an illegal search by 14 drug enforcement agents because I was taking pictures of a lear jet taking off at a local airport. They tore apart my car and dumped everything on the road including everything in every sealed part of the car.
I have had so many encounters because I am an aviation photographer in New York and spot at JFK, LGA, Farmingdale, Islip and many other local airports. I have been stopped 2 times this week alone (Not at airports) and have been run through the department of homeland security many times. I was even stopped by a NYPD Boat and have many pictures of that encounter.... I have been told to STOP taking pictures in a public park while being detained! Is that allowed??? I have probably had more run in's with more law enforcement officers than anyone on this site...and was told by a State trooper to delete photos or I WOULD be arrested. I have had a National Guardsman step back about 2 feet and raise his automatic rifle about 15 degrees up to my shin in an defensive stance when I refused to delete photos at a NYC airport in 2002! I would love as much info as possible.
FYI, for the most part, the law enforcement is very good, But as in any group of people....You get the wildcards and with my averages of getting stopped....the odds are that I will get harassed at least once a month!
I have soooo many stories...and have been questioned at Phoenix Sky Harbor too!!!!
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06/12/2006 08:26:24 PM · #35 |
Just received the July issue of Popular Photography & Imaging and they have an article about this subject.
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06/12/2006 08:34:24 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Derf:
I ask because I am an aviation photographer and have been stopped about 3 dozen times.... I have had every reaction you could imagine including an illegal search by 14 drug enforcement agents because I was taking pictures of a lear jet taking off at a local airport. They tore apart my car and dumped everything on the road including everything in every sealed part of the car.
I have had so many encounters because I am an aviation photographer in New York and spot at JFK, LGA, Farmingdale, Islip and many other local airports. I have been stopped 2 times this week alone (Not at airports) and have been run through the department of homeland security many times. I was even stopped by a NYPD Boat and have many pictures of that encounter.... I have been told to STOP taking pictures in a public park while being detained! Is that allowed??? I have probably had more run in's with more law enforcement officers than anyone on this site...and was told by a State trooper to delete photos or I WOULD be arrested. I have had a National Guardsman step back about 2 feet and raise his automatic rifle about 15 degrees up to my shin in an defensive stance when I refused to delete photos at a NYC airport in 2002! I would love as much info as possible.
FYI, for the most part, the law enforcement is very good, But as in any group of people....You get the wildcards and with my averages of getting stopped....the odds are that I will get harassed at least once a month!
I have soooo many stories...and have been questioned at Phoenix Sky Harbor too!!!! |
If I ever make it to a GTG, I hope you aren't there!!!!!
:-)
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06/12/2006 08:37:17 PM · #37 |
If the cop asks you to delete the photos, you know they are talking out of their ass. If they truly believed a crime was committed, why would they ask for the evidence to be erased?
This will happen to me sooner or later, and I can tell you, I will be civil, but firm and if I end up in jail for a few hours, well, that's gonna be their loss and my downpayment on a 5D... |
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06/12/2006 08:48:57 PM · #38 |
I am respectful to law officials until they say that I am helping terrorists and it is against the law to take any pictures of aircraft.....but understand that this is NY after 9/11... People get a little crazy with good reason, but a terrorist will use camcorder while doing 60MPH....NOT A TRIPOD in the SAME SPOT for 1 hour getting a night exposure!!! As usually, there are good and bad officers...the bad ones usually are the ones that lost friends and loved ones in the WTC.... How upset can I really get at them with that logic!
I have had a sheriff lock up the brakes while doing 60MPH past me...
I have had the good cop bad cop, more times than I care to remember...
I have had a cop tell a concerned citizen to NEVER follow a person that they feel was a suspected terrorist because instead of grabbing his phone and talking to the Police dispatcher and giving a location and waiting, he could have put a bullet or shank in his chest...and then apologized to me about being followed by the said complaisant.
You see it all around here!!!
I have had friends detained for hours...cars impounded for being on a public road next to a local airport. Crap, I can type for hours.... The details on each story are wild!
Like I said, good and bad...I just want to know the Laws so I know what is legal and not.....I always give the police the benefit of the doubt...But they can only push so far
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06/12/2006 09:44:58 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If the cop asks you to delete the photos, you know they are talking out of their ass. If they truly believed a crime was committed, why would they ask for the evidence to be erased?
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If someone was doing something bad and a cop made them delete the photos, the D.A. would have them doing the worst job in the district the next day.
I used to develop and test new munitions on the F-16, and I can tell you that every time we were doing something we didn't want people to see we flew in areas that people wouldn't be. I mean there was a reason we drove 3 hours into the desert. If somone would have gotten those pictures they would have been taken. If you can see the plane then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to take photos. you can get photos and blueprints for every current non-military and most millitary planes on the internet. |
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06/12/2006 10:43:18 PM · #40 |
Derf. Might I suggest a trip down to your local attorney for a '1 hour free consultation'. I know that there is a fair bit of free advice you can get... For your concerns, I would consider even laying out a few bucks... and a handful of business cards...
Most of what you are saying has happened to you is quite ludicrous and you are probably out a fair bit in compensation... if you felt like spending the time...
In my experience, it's not impossible to fight city hall, but it's extremely non-cost effective in time expenditure... The legal system is all about wasting your time to help filter down to only the people that care enough about their issues.
In the meantime, do you have a press pass? Wouldn't that help to answer a number of questions? I understand that they are not too hard to get hold of.
Incidentally, recovering images is probably only a useful tactic if you are actually finished... If you take more images, you might corrupt.
Oh and if your camera has two card slots, why would they be dumb enough to only ask for one? If they are taking your card, I doubt they would let you remove it... It's not that difficult...
Message edited by author 2006-06-12 22:51:52. |
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06/12/2006 11:25:20 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by ellamay:
anyone have similiar canadian versions? |
This may not help a whole lot ellamay, but the following applies to search and seizure in Canada:
Searches and seizures must be authorized by law and can fail to meet this requirement if any one of three conditions is not met.
First, the state authority conducting the search must be able to point to a specific statute or common law rule that authorizes the search.
Second, the search must be carried out in accordance with the procedural and substantive requirements the law provides.
Third, a search must not exceed its scope as to area and as to the items for which the law has granted the authority to search.
Hope this helps you a bit.
Ray
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06/12/2006 11:27:54 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
Oh and if your camera has two card slots, why would they be dumb enough to only ask for one? If they are taking your card, I doubt they would let you remove it... It's not that difficult... |
Because you have to give it to them voluntarily -- because they have no right to take your camera and remove the card. And then they don't have to know or see that there are two cards. |
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06/12/2006 11:29:29 PM · #43 |
If the police tell you to stop taking pictures...you should stop taking pictures. If they detain you, you wait. If they take your camera and look through the pictures, let them. You pretty much have to do whatever it is that a cop says, otherwise, you'll be arrested, at the very least, for disorderly conduct...of course when everything's said and done, you can send the police department a bill for the time you lost while you were detained.
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06/12/2006 11:43:19 PM · #44 |
Bottom line, it's important to know your rights.
In a situation where a law enforcement offical wants to see the images by asking if they could, and you have nothing to hide, why not. It difuses the situation by co-operation, rather than becoming a martyr and creating an issue. If they demanded to see them, one could easily tell them they can't demand it without a warrant, but as one that has nothing to hide, would be more than willing to show them if they asked, but didn't demand it.
As someone that likes to be on the good side of the law in my small community, it just makes things a lot better for the next time, as I know there will be a next time. In the case of what happened to me yesterday, at least one of the officers remembered me as a local hobbiest photographer and made a big difference in how things transpired. |
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06/12/2006 11:49:42 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by deapee:
If the police tell you to stop taking pictures...you should stop taking pictures. If they detain you, you wait. If they take your camera and look through the pictures, let them. You pretty much have to do whatever it is that a cop says, otherwise, you'll be arrested, at the very least, for disorderly conduct...of course when everything's said and done, you can send the police department a bill for the time you lost while you were detained. |
i don't know if you are american or not, but here the police can not just detain you unless they have a reason to do so. We have a standard of law in the United States called "habeous corpus" it's latin for "you have the body" which in brief states that a person can not be detained for unlawful reasons. Not following a police officers unlawful demands or requests can at no time be considered illegal. So if you are doing nothing wrong it may be easier to just give them your camera to look through. But in no way are you required to delete photos or absolutly not to give up your card. Both the card obviously is property and the photos taken are intellectual property and are afforded the same rights as a tangible item. As long as these photos do not constitute one of the exclusions of the first ammendment. (profanity, libel, fighting words, hate libel, threats to peace) then your work can not be taken away from you. If you are not being arrested at you refuse to show your photos then the police would have to be either able to show they had probable cause to believe that the camera was an instrument of crime or have a warrant to search the photographs. Because cameras are mobile and carryable by the person the police can not take them away nor secure them as evidence unless an arrest is made. However what you're taking pictures of is going to determine probable cause standards. If you are taking pictures of bridges, power plants, water supplies, police stations, hospitals, schools, places of worship, or other places that would have a conceived "low value of artistic interest" it will be very simple in the U.S. this day and age to have generated the probable cause needed for the search and to ask you to display your images. A similear story happened to my father who stopped a photogrpaher while he was takign pictures of a resoivour in which water is treated. The photographer had his portfolio with him, which included other works or urban archetecture and was able to explain that he just liked to shoot functional city installations like that. He was polite to my father and there was no incident. If you give a big "fuck you" attitude to the police they will make things difficult on you. Running you for a ped stop and taking time out of your day to verify you have no warrants or wants. So it's best to just be polite while at the same time respectfully letting the officer know you are aware of you rights and that you are certainly not giving up any photos or going anywhere with him unless you are formally placed under arrest. At which time you can make it difficult on him by refusing to answer any questions without legal council present. (miranda rights) I hope I could be of some assistance.
of course it is important to not that this is only american civilain law. I see a lot people talking about the military and I know there rules change significantly so I can not tell you what they will be other then I know you give up rights as a member of the military. Also be aware that tresspassing is a crime. If you're on private property and you are stopped. Cooperate, because they can arrest you and again the "fuck you" attitude will have you arrested and your photos and camera held up in evidence until trial. The last you want is your 3000 dollar camera and lens sitting in a cage at city hall for 2 months because it's now "evidence"
Message edited by author 2006-06-12 23:54:44. |
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06/12/2006 11:54:09 PM · #46 |
You couldn't be more wrong tancredi...
The police do have every right to stop you and ask you for your camera equipment if they suspect you may be involved in some type of illegal or terroristic activity...what constitutes a terroristic activity? I don't know, maybe a glare you give to a cop as you pass by, maybe he just doesn't like the way you look...I can GUARANTEE you that if you give a cop a hard time about something, he WILL find a reason to arrest you, and you will end up putting yourself through more trouble than you needed to be put through in the first place.
Look up the patriot act my friend.
I dont' agree with the way things are, but it's how things are.
EDIT:
Here's a good place to start:
//www.aclu.org/safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html
Message edited by author 2006-06-12 23:57:27.
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06/12/2006 11:58:24 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by deapee:
You couldn't be more wrong tancredi...
The police do have every right to stop you and ask you for your camera equipment if they suspect you may be involved in some type of illegal or terroristic activity...what constitutes a terroristic activity? I don't know, maybe a glare you give to a cop as you pass by, maybe he just doesn't like the way you look...I can GUARANTEE you that if you give a cop a hard time about something, he WILL find a reason to arrest you, and you will end up putting yourself through more trouble than you needed to be put through in the first place.
Look up the patriot act my friend.
I dont' agree with the way things are, but it's how things are. |
the patriot act is federal law and not many this provisions generally don't go to the state level. YOu can not just have a reason to arrest someone i'm sorry I've worked for DA's offices in the past and you'd be amazed at things that were told were wrong and what kind of criminals get out for violations of a citizens right to privacy. I wrote in my post that if they believe you are using it to commit a crime they can it's "probable cause" and I even listed how easily it will be for them to show given certain things you are shooting. However it is important to note they have rules and standards in which they must conform to. |
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06/13/2006 12:05:25 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by deapee:
If the police tell you to stop taking pictures...you should stop taking pictures. If they detain you, you wait. If they take your camera and look through the pictures, let them. You pretty much have to do whatever it is that a cop says, otherwise, you'll be arrested, at the very least, for disorderly conduct...of course when everything's said and done, you can send the police department a bill for the time you lost while you were detained. |
I think that's a good way to go.
I look like I'm 15 and I usually only go out with a point and shoot so the most I'll get is people giving me looks...I haven't ever been explicitly told to stop taking pictures before. The only time I've had an issue is when my friends and I were getting some footage in the mall, and we were kicked out of almost every store we were in with the exception of a comic book store and told that we weren't allowed to film in there. Which I don't understand...everything there was in full view of the public, we were walking up and down aisles and talking to people and running some commentary on the stores.
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06/13/2006 12:07:54 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by modgethanc:
Originally posted by deapee:
If the police tell you to stop taking pictures...you should stop taking pictures. If they detain you, you wait. If they take your camera and look through the pictures, let them. You pretty much have to do whatever it is that a cop says, otherwise, you'll be arrested, at the very least, for disorderly conduct...of course when everything's said and done, you can send the police department a bill for the time you lost while you were detained. |
I think that's a good way to go.
I look like I'm 15 and I usually only go out with a point and shoot so the most I'll get is people giving me looks...I haven't ever been explicitly told to stop taking pictures before. The only time I've had an issue is when my friends and I were getting some footage in the mall, and we were kicked out of almost every store we were in with the exception of a comic book store and told that we weren't allowed to film in there. Which I don't understand...everything there was in full view of the public, we were walking up and down aisles and talking to people and running some commentary on the stores. |
next time that happens tell them you're with your school newspaper and you're looking for shots of the best places in your town to shop. Then they'll love having you take pictures in your store. Free press
Message edited by author 2006-06-13 00:08:15. |
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06/13/2006 12:14:15 AM · #50 |
Malls are private property....they can tell you no pictures
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