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06/06/2006 09:51:43 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
Why shouldn't we judge ourselves by our score here? This is the jury of our peers. |
not really, not really at all. the only thing that most of dpc has in common is that they own digital cameras. hardly a peer group, imho. and, as i and others have pointed out--it is only one of many, many available audiences.
Originally posted by Alienyst:
We all have family and friends that will always tell us our photos look great. Then when they do crappy here we get the true measure of the quality as it is anonymous. |
again, i disagree. if it does crappy, it simply means the image failed to connect with that challenge's voters. the same image could probably make a lot of other people very happy.
Originally posted by Alienyst:
My membership is up in a few days and I am not going to re-up. In fact, I realize now that more than likely I cannot do any better than average or below - my ability is just not where it should be. I should have stuck to a point and shoot and taking snapshots since that is, no matter how hard I try to be original, what this community has told me. Yes I have learned an incredible amount being here, but that doesn't do anything to make me want to continue since my shots seem to be getting worse and not better. It is very depressing and in fact has turned me into someone who used to take literally hundreds of pics a week to not even picking up my camera for days on end. As said, it is just very depressing. I look at my own shots now and just say "f*** it" even when they are for me and not a challenge. |
sorry to hear this. this is really the point my initial post was addressing, that tying your photographic worth to dpc scores is a mistake.
Originally posted by Alienyst:
Since I started here a year ago this community has changed drastically. A lot more bitching and moaning and complaining. A lot more skewed voting (don't deny it) and a lot of people with less knowledge and experience than me voting down shots they don't understand or cannot open their mind up enough to see the merits of a shot. Also the quality of the comments has diminished significantly. To get comments that say how good a shot is but a score less than 5 shows the disparity clearly. Again very depressing. Especially when thrown in are comments from people who are new to the sight that just totally don't make sense and are completely wrong in the technical aspects they try and point out it just demonstrates how futile it really is. It has turned into a lose lose situation. |
this i disagree with, as well. you can go through the forum archives and find these same complaints over and over again, from almost as early as when the site started up. the site is what it is, good, bad, and ugly. all the same, i haven't seen any alternatives that are worth the little time i have for this type of thing. so, i ignore what bugs me and contribute what i can, hopefully in a positive way.
Originally posted by Alienyst:
It seems now that there are only a few types of shots that will ever score good and no help through comments to help you improve either. The same shots being entered over and over and over again trying to capture the score the original received is also getting boring. As well as the people who blatantly and openly admit they ignore the challenge and vote the 'pretty' shot just degrades the spirit. Originality is scorned (through the voting) and post processing seems to take the cake every time. |
see the above...
Originally posted by Alienyst:
So after all that I have decided to sell off everything - really. Why? Don't need the depression in my life. I take my photography, or used to anyway, very seriously and genuinely made every effort to improve with every shot and all I have gotten from here lately is "you suck" while I see shots that in every aspect are FAR worse than mine technically, compositionally, originality do much better. I have scratched my head so often I now have a bald spot. |
well, if that's your decision, that's your decision. i'm sorry you've let such a small group of people come between you and something that you used to enjoy. at the very least, i'd recommend quitting dpc, but not quitting photography...
cheers to better days, dude. |
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06/06/2006 10:01:17 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by skiprow:
well, if that's your decision, that's your decision. i'm sorry you've let such a small group of people come between you and something that you used to enjoy. at the very least, i'd recommend quitting dpc, but not quitting photography...
cheers to better days, dude. |
Ditto. |
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06/06/2006 10:22:25 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
So after all that I have decided to sell off everything - really. Why? Don't need the depression in my life. I take my photography, or used to anyway, very seriously and genuinely made every effort to improve with every shot and all I have gotten from here lately is "you suck" while I see shots that in every aspect are FAR worse than mine technically, compositionally, originality do much better. I have scratched my head so often I now have a bald spot. |
No offense man, but if you're into photography for the sole purpose of pleasing DPC voters, you probably should quit because that's not a very good reason to be into it. Rather, I'd recommend giving yourself permission to stop entering challenges, set down the camera and wait until you feel inspired. Not inspired to shoot for a challenge, just inspired to pick up the camera. Works wonders, really. |
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06/06/2006 10:25:49 AM · #29 |
I agree to an extent, I rarely enter here anymore, mainly a time issue.... but I am a fulltime commercial photographer and in my time I have managed just one blue ribbon.... scores used to bug me alot.... but it never stopped me from doing what I do... as long as the stuff I produce appeals to me, and more importantly to my paying customers, then I am happy.... a big fat cheque is ultimately more satisfying than a virtual blue ribbon.
As for the community here, there are those whose opinion I respect and then there are the rest. I choose to read comments on my photographs selectively..... |
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06/06/2006 10:32:52 AM · #30 |
scores ? what scores ?
c'mon people ... get a "grip"
:-)
the most important thing is that you love your own photos and your messages within. |
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06/06/2006 10:38:22 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by Alienyst:
So after all that I have decided to sell off everything - really. Why? Don't need the depression in my life. I take my photography, or used to anyway, very seriously and genuinely made every effort to improve with every shot and all I have gotten from here lately is "you suck" while I see shots that in every aspect are FAR worse than mine technically, compositionally, originality do much better. I have scratched my head so often I now have a bald spot. |
No offense man, but if you're into photography for the sole purpose of pleasing DPC voters, you probably should quit because that's not a very good reason to be into it. Rather, I'd recommend giving yourself permission to stop entering challenges, set down the camera and wait until you feel inspired. Not inspired to shoot for a challenge, just inspired to pick up the camera. Works wonders, really. |
Well said and excellent post by skip in the beginning.
My advice is to join a camera club or some other type of photography club as well as being a member here.
I love comparing how my images are received here compared to a competition with a panel of judges and being able to speak to those judges afterwards is great.
The images here are voted by mass appeal that is the way it is set up and with the potential of people voting with bias to there own images; you just have to deal with that fact. But from my experience here usually the best images end up in the top 10% only rarely do I see a gross abnormally to that.
If you think DPC is the be all to end all of photography then you have a lot to learn.
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06/06/2006 11:09:50 AM · #32 |
Maybe I wrote that wrong - I don't think DPC is the end all of photography at all. I do belong to a camera club and the judging there is worse as usually the WORST image wins in their competitions (if I sent you a link to their website you would see exactly what I mean) which is even more depressing than here. I don't take pictures just for Challenges and that is not the end of my photography. But when the largest community you do participate in is always so negative, rarely positive unless you kiss someone's ass, your images - portfolio as well as challenges don't muster any type of positive input it is very depressing. I do love photography. But it seems that I am not right for it. The only one that consistently 'likes' my images is my mom and I know she is full of crap. Even my worst shot she says is great. And when you enter a shot that does get lots of comments ALL in the positive but the final score is less than appealing it makes you wonder what the hell is going on. I never shoot a shot for a challenge expecting to win a ribbon. I don't give a crap about ribbons. I care about improving and this site has lost that aspect. Unless you beg for it in the forums, which I think is a pathetic cry for attention and an ego boost, you don't get that help anymore.
Sometimes you just have to be a realist. I have put the camera down for many many days on end. It does not help when you pick it up again and the results are the same. Being a realist I am average at best and there is no input from anywhere on how to improve - especially from here where I would expect it. When I first started here the comments were helpful, insightful, intelligent and worth the time to read, follow and actually check the 'helpful' box as it was genuinely helpful. Now, the comments generally suck, are not helpful at all and usually are wrong in the technical merits they point out. On top of the down right insulting comments which seem to come more and more lately. Leaves me with no desire to shot another shot at all. For here let alone myself. In the first 8 months I had the DSLR I shot 13000+ photos. In the last 4 months, less than 2000.
I think you are wrong to take the aspect of this site away that you should not pay attention to what the voters say. They are the same people that view your portfolio. The feedback is the same - little or none and inferior in quality than it was a year ago. I know people have complained since the beginning. But now it is multiple times a day over and over and over and over ad nauseam. And always about the same petty crap. And the advice is always the same lately - less than adequate and rarely to the point. There seems to be less of a 'lets help each other out' attitude as there was a year ago and more of a 'lets complain' attitude. |
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06/06/2006 11:12:28 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
Why shouldn't we judge ourselves by our score here? This is the jury of our peers. ... Then when they do crappy here we get the true measure of the quality as it is anonymous. |
This statement and your depressing reaction is evidence that DPCers subjective scoring is flawed. The problem isn't the order of finish, it is the scores themselves.
Comparatively speaking, virtually anywhere else the average scores given by DPCers would qualify as failing grades. In classrooms scoring below the midpoint normally is an "F", matters not it is an exam or a homework assignment. You could not pass your driver's test if you scored as low. You'd be given the IQ of a moron with comparative DPC scores.
DPCers are extrodinarily harsh in their scoring. Why? Simple. The self centered attitude that if you score my good pictures low, I'll score your good pictures low.
By our scoring we tell the average DPC photographer that their pictures are poor and even the very best ones only get a grade of a low "B". A score of 10, after all, is defined as "good" by site definition.
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 11:13:25.
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06/06/2006 11:20:42 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
DPCers are extrodinarily harsh in their scoring. Why? Simple. The self centered attitude that if you score my good pictures low, I'll score your good pictures low.
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Interesting thought here. When I vote, I try to separate my picture from those that I'm viewing. If my picture is struggling at 5.1 and see what should be a 6, I will give it a 6, even if my picture is better (in my opinion of course). It's very hard to do sometimes and I can see how easy it would be to give a low score if you think your own picture is better.
I am starting to put more faith into percentile these days than actual score. When a challenge is finished I look at the pics around mine. The ones who scored better are typically better. The ones that scored lower are typically not as good as mine. And usually the top pictures deserve to be there. |
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06/06/2006 11:22:08 AM · #35 |
Soooo..... what do you want for that macro lens? (j/k,,, J/K!!)
Seriously, maybe don't sell your stuff. You say your goal is to improve, you can do that without loads of insightful critiques. Patience, perserverence. Hope you'll stick with it for awhile longer.
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 18:48:09. |
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06/06/2006 12:33:32 PM · #36 |
Sometimes I feel that the same old DPC shots ribbon. But then there are too many examples of shots that are unique, emblematic of a particular photgrapher, or just plain original that consistently rise to the top for at least one front page ribbon a week. That is what I shoot for. That new, exciting image that everyone just says: "Now that is cool and true photography". And then again, if I shoot and ribbon with a very DPC-ish (don't really believe in that term anymore), then I have showed to myself that I can achieve a universally enjoyed image. And that is what photography is all about. To blend classic photography, personal style and mass appeal.
editing for examples:
Here we have three recent examples of wholly unique, classic yet fresh images that rose to the top. Not necessarily gaudy in appearance, but consistently enjoyed.
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 12:36:48.
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06/06/2006 01:13:35 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
DPCers are extrodinarily harsh in their scoring. Why? Simple. The self centered attitude that if you score my good pictures low, I'll score your good pictures low.
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Interesting thought here. When I vote, I try to separate my picture from those that I'm viewing. If my picture is struggling at 5.1 and see what should be a 6, I will give it a 6, even if my picture is better (in my opinion of course).
I am starting to put more faith into percentile these days than actual score. When a challenge is finished I look at the pics around mine. The ones who scored better are typically better. The ones that scored lower are typically not as good as mine. And usually the top pictures deserve to be there. |
There is a tendency to vote the way you think other DPCers would vote. Since others vote low then you do to.
Perhaps voters should try using the actual site guidlines for scoring sometime. What a concept!
In that scenario you ask yourself, "Is the image 'good'"? If it is you score it a 10. If it is "bad" you score it a 1. You will find that scores will be higher because pictures submitted to DPC are above average. Anyone here think pictures submitted to DPC are below average? You would also discover that images will still finish in their same relative positions. The only difference? Images get more accurate scores.
It helps if you can overcome the natural human tendency to find fault as a means to be critical while downplaying reasons to praise.
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06/06/2006 01:17:03 PM · #38 |
As my son would say, "Narf!"
I'm just feeling mean and contrary over my Beatles entry. I won't be doing any challenges for awhile. |
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06/06/2006 01:17:17 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
...Anyone here think pictures submitted to DPC are below average?... |
That would depend on what average you'd have in mind. |
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06/06/2006 01:31:00 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
In that scenario you ask yourself, "Is the image 'good'"? If it is you score it a 10. If it is "bad" you score it a 1. You will find that scores will be higher because pictures submitted to DPC are above average. Anyone here think pictures submitted to DPC are below average? You would also discover that images will still finish in their same relative positions. The only difference? Images get more accurate scores. |
Okay, right now I give a good image a 6 and an incredible image a 10. If I gave a good image a 10, how would I differentiate that from a great image (8) or an incredible image (10). On your scale, they would all be the same and thus one not better than the other.
Personally, I vote on a sliding scale. I try to have at least 1 ten in every challenge. Most of the images will fall between 5 and 6, 5 being okay, 6 being good. If I go through the entire challenge and have no tens, I will bump everything up until I have a 10.
The idea that a 10 is a good image is fine, but what you do you with images that are better than good? |
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06/06/2006 01:32:58 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
...Anyone here think pictures submitted to DPC are below average?... |
That would depend on what average you'd have in mind. |
if 5.0 is considered average for a scale of 1-10. Then I would say that most photos are below average. At least according to my average vote cast.
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06/06/2006 01:47:55 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
if 5.0 is considered average for a scale of 1-10. Then I would say that most photos are below average. At least according to my average vote cast. |
5 is the average of a scale of 0 - 10.
In our 1-10 scale, 5.5 is the average. |
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06/06/2006 01:50:09 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
Originally posted by Cutter:
if 5.0 is considered average for a scale of 1-10. Then I would say that most photos are below average. At least according to my average vote cast. |
5 is the average of a scale of 0 - 10.
In our 1-10 scale, 5.5 is the average. |
yeah, i know, I didn't want to make it too complicated, but that is good you pointed it out. And even more details would reveal that the average high vote given is a 7 or 8 not a 10. So the 0-10 doesn't really hold up. i was just saying...middle of the road would be a 5.
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06/06/2006 01:59:54 PM · #44 |
This site is about competition, and, unfortunately, competition often breeds animosity and resentment. In any given challenge there are hundreds of contestants, but only one winner (or three if you count 2nd and 3rd as winning). That means there are hundreds of losers for each challenge. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. Never getting to be the winner can be awfully discouraging for most of us. If you let that get to you, then that's a bad thing. For others, it simply pushes them to try harder, and that can be a very good thing. It takes a strong person to keep trying in the face of adversity.
Your scores here are largely decided by the very people that you're competing against, and, in my opinion, all too often their friends, family, and countrymen too. (Note: Iâve said this before and got snippy replies that basically said, âI would never do that, and no one else here would either.â To that I say, âNonsense, come live in the world of the real.â)
Scores here are only loosely related to artistic and technical merit. There are countless other factors that decide a given score, and few, if any, are under your control. Many people vote based on an imageâs subject matter, rather than its artistic or technical qualities.
This is not a jury of your peers. The site is open to anyone with a digital camera. The only thing we all have in common is weâre all human (or most of us anyway.) Ask yourself this: If you were a professional photographer with years of training and experience and megabucks of equipment, would you consider a ten-year-old child with no experience and a cheap P&S your peer?
I suggest you take your scores here with a grain or two of salt and try to enjoy the place for what it is and what it has to offer. Itâs a great place to learn, have fun, and socialize with people all over the globe. It certainly beats sitting around watching reruns and infomercials on TV.
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06/06/2006 02:05:28 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
...Anyone here think pictures submitted to DPC are below average?... |
That would depend on what average you'd have in mind. |
I think in absolute terms.
For example, if I take a test that has 100 points possible and I get 10 points just for showing up but still only score 55, in most tests I would get an "F". Equivalent DPC scoring is LESS than that.
Conclusion:
DPC scores indicates that the average image sumitted in DPC challenges is "F" work.
I don't believe that.
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 14:05:41.
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06/06/2006 02:27:25 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
...Anyone here think pictures submitted to DPC are below average?... |
That would depend on what average you'd have in mind. |
I think in absolute terms.
For example, if I take a test that has 100 points possible and I get 10 points just for showing up but still only score 55, in most tests I would get an "F". Equivalent DPC scoring is LESS than that.
Conclusion:
DPC scores indicates that the average image sumitted in DPC challenges is "F" work.
I don't believe that. |
i agree, most dpc work is not "F" work--most of it is average work. unlike school work, though, average here is 5.5, as opposed to 8. failing at dpc is more like a 3, and below average but not failing is more like a 4.
some people think not ribboning is failing.
to me, failing is giving up. |
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06/06/2006 02:34:04 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
...Anyone here think pictures submitted to DPC are below average?... |
That would depend on what average you'd have in mind. |
I think in absolute terms.
For example, if I take a test that has 100 points possible and I get 10 points just for showing up but still only score 55, in most tests I would get an "F". Equivalent DPC scoring is LESS than that.
Conclusion:
DPC scores indicates that the average image sumitted in DPC challenges is "F" work.
I don't believe that. |
In my Thermodynamics class, a 55% would have been well above the typical high score, let alone the average, for an exam.
You can't look at it on a straight scale, you really need to curve the scale to be meaningful. By your analysis, most winning images would get a "C" or "D", precious few would venture into "B" territory. There has never been an "A" grade in the history of DPC.
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 14:39:33. |
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06/06/2006 02:52:05 PM · #48 |
I look at it this way...
In high school, I was a star student. I won praise from teachers and family, friends sought me out for homework help, and I got a couple college scholarships. I graduated in the top 10% of my graduating class and went on to attend a major university.
But at the university, I was nothing special. Top 10%? Just about everyone in the school could say the same thing. Suddenly, I was a mediocre fish in a pond full of much smarter fish.
DPC is much the same way, except without the minimum SAT scores. I think that most people who join here have a basic understanding of what is good and are likely considered to be good by their non-photog friends and family. But the problem is that when we're accustomed to being good, suddenly being mediocre is a serious blow to the ego. How you fare in this sort of environment is really going to depend on your reaction to the newsflash that you're not the World's Best, no matter what that coffee mug says. Do you stomp off in a huff, or do you learn from the others? We all have scattered bits of information. Maybe someone has picked up a tip from me. I know I've picked up tons from all over the site. I told my Mom that this site is, for me, like taking a photography class.
It's true that what wins here is not necessarily what sells. Even within the site we have wildly varied tastes. My lowest scoring image has positive comments and a favorite. More than once I've shown my middle-of-the-pack challenge entries to friends who beg for prints. Obviously, what I'm learning here has an effect on my real world photography, and I'm extraordinarily happy with that.
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06/06/2006 02:57:45 PM · #49 |
> stdavidson:
I propose average means one thing to one and another to another. We can cook up statistics, but I doubt this gets us any closer to a consensus.
You will draw your sense from whatever reference(s) available to you. The same holds true for me and anyone else. The points of reference differ vastly, here.
You could educate me, but likely not via a statistic. I'd like to believe we could culture some sort of inclusive sense of what's what, but I doubt that the pop culture of DPC would be conducive -or even tolerant- to the sort of collective growth a sheer minority (speculation) could welcome and embrace.
Thus my premise is and remains: accept the madness and be entertained.
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 14:59:46. |
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06/06/2006 03:02:21 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Thus my premise is and remains: accept the madness and be entertained. |
AMEN |
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