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05/16/2006 11:35:03 AM · #51 |
OK, to get back to the subject of the thread. While I do find flower shots (but not necessarily animal shots) to be a big stretch for the challenge, I didn't vote them down for that reason. I voted them down because in the majority of the pictures, the background or environment told me nothing. Was there something special about this flower? Does it have meaning?
I didn't vote down for DNMC nearly as much as I voted down for poor execution. I'm guessing shooting at f/1.8 in environmental portrait was not a good idea. What is that bokeh saying to me? |
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05/16/2006 11:35:59 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by kirsty_mcn:
Which probably means we should all quit discussing the current challenge in a way to sway voters |
A lot of DPCers seem to feel that way. It reminds me of my sister when we used to play a board game. She would call for a re-roll if the dice hit somebody's hand, because that "affected" the outcome. I said "huh?" to her and now I say "huh?" to DPC.
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05/16/2006 11:46:09 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
What is that bokeh saying to me? |
Ahhh... I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one the bokeh talk to... whew! Do they ever tell you to run naked through the streets?
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05/16/2006 11:54:16 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by kirsty_mcn:
Which probably means we should all quit discussing the current challenge in a way to sway voters |
A lot of DPCers seem to feel that way. It reminds me of my sister when we used to play a board game. She would call for a re-roll if the dice hit somebody's hand, because that "affected" the outcome. I said "huh?" to her and now I say "huh?" to DPC. |
I'm all for discussing the challenge before voting, 'cause that positively encourages creative thinking, or learning about the topic etc (but not the irate nitpicking threads lol). But it seems unfair if someone genuinely thought their photo of a bug in the "environment" fitted the intended theme, to now make lots of people realise the whole art genre idea and thus vote down photos they otherwise wouldn't have done.
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05/16/2006 11:54:55 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
What is that bokeh saying to me? |
Ahhh... I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one the bokeh talk to... whew! Do they ever tell you to run naked through the streets? |
lmao...sometimes I worry about you...
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05/16/2006 11:58:05 AM · #56 |
I don't usually jump in on these debates, but I was one of the people who left quite a few "where's the person" comments, and I don't want people to think that I am uncreative and narrow minded (even though I may well be Ü). So I figured I'd make two points justifying my voting:
1. The topic of the challenge was to show a subject within the confines of their environment, in such a way that it said something about the subject. For me, personally, a picture of a young [professional], sitting calmly while surounded by [her work] speaks to me. It tells me what her job is, what that job is like, it tells me that she is cool under fire, and loves her job. I fell respect and awe for her. On the other hand, a picture of a lady bug on a leaf doesn't really tell me anything that I didn't already know, and I don't really feel anything for the lady bug. Yes, I can agree that it's a 'portrait' of the ladybug, and it clearly shows the environment that the lady bug lives in, but it just doesn't move me, and so my scores reflect that. Now, that same lady bug in a macro challenge would probably move me, because then I would be looking at the clarity of the bug, and the cool use of DOF, and the vibrant colors, instead of looking to learn something about the subject based on it's environment, and I would score it higher because of that.
2. There's been a lot of talk about 'out of the box' thinking, and people's creativity being stifled. To me, the whole point of there being a specific 'challenge' each week, instead of just 'submit the best shot you took this week', is to force people to think withinthe box, and take the best, most creative shot they can given the set parameters. I think it often takes more creativity to come up with an effective shot that meets the intentions of the challenge than it does to bend the definition of the challenge to fit a shot that's "outside" the norm. If your forte is animal shots, than trying to take a picture of a person is a great opportunity to grow creatively, and to me, that's what the point of the challenges is.
(btw, I wish there were a spell checker, because my spelling stinks..Ü)
Message edited by frisca - please refrain from discussing specific entries. |
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05/16/2006 12:04:42 PM · #57 |
| I did submit a "person" in their environment and I'm still getting DNMC comments and the score's been dropping like a rock. Oh well, maybe next time. :-( |
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05/16/2006 12:09:03 PM · #58 |
Well, my entry DNMC. I am going for the brown ribbon here. It is actually a very nice image that if in the correct challenge may pull in a 6.0+ however I am hugging the 3.8 area right now.
Someone even choose the image as one of there favorates!
I am kicking tail here!
That is why I suck!
Message edited by author 2006-05-16 12:53:08.
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05/16/2006 12:19:59 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by margiemu:
For me, personally, a picture of a young [professional], sitting calmly while surounded by [her work] "speaks" to me. It tells me what her job is, what that job is like, it tells me that she is cool under fire, and loves her job. I fell respect and awe for her. On the other hand, a picture of a lady bug on a leaf doesn't really tell me anything that I didn't already know, and I don't really feel anything for the lady bug. Yes, I can agree that it's a 'portrait' of the ladybug, and it clearly shows the environment that the lady bug lives in, but it just doesn't move me, and so my scores reflect that. |
...but the question is "how would you feel about a portrait of a Ladybug sitting calmly while surounded by a bunch of active 5 year olds"?
Or a flower sitting calmly while surounded by a bunch of active 5 year olds?
or a.....? ;)
Message edited by frisca - cleaning up quotes. |
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05/16/2006 12:21:23 PM · #60 |
first off...the term YOU in the below context is not pointing at anyone person directly.
man I can't wait till this challenge is done with so that explainations can maybe be obtained and given without disclosing who has what picture instead of everyone jumping to conclusions about people trying to "think out of the box" or "being artsy" or "not knowing what the details meant".
Maybe, just maybe someone submitted the image in the wrong challenge (not like it hasn't happened before), or maybe misread or misunderstood the details. Maybe the person is trying to be creative in their thinking and their conclusion of what the details said and you are the one that needs to think better about the details.
If you don't think the subject fits the details then fine. Comment to the person that you don't see how it fits the details and vote on how they pulled off the image. Did they get the lighting right? How's their DOF? of course all this is just the voter opinion anyway, but it is more helpful to the photographer than just ASSUMING they are outside thinkers and voting them down for it or bashing them in the threads.
The end of this challenge cannot come soon enough...but that only means someone will find a reason to not like something in the next challenge. |
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05/16/2006 12:29:10 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Only in DPC could this happen :-) I mean, google "environmental portrait" and every single link on the first page (all I checked) points to some discussion about the photography of people in an environment that helps define them. "Environmental Portraiture" is a standard course in photography schools, and you'd flunk the course if you shot flowers.
People are taking a very simple, time-honored concept/genre and twisting it all up because of deficiencies or omissions in the capsule description of the challenge. Here, for example, is the overview of a lesson from one school on "Environmental Portraiture":
A good portrait reveals aspects of a person's character to the viewer. In an environmental portrait, the person portrayed is placed in a setting that shares information about the person's life and/or interests. The person may also be holding objects related to their professional trade or interests and hobbies. In this activity, students will learn about environmental portraiture by viewing a portrait by Dorothea Lange, and then creating a portrait of their own.
So much ado over nothing... I mean, if you want to shoot flowers or turtles or ladybugs or whatever, that's certainly your right (I did a "self portrait" as a raindrop and finished next-to-last) but complaining about low scores for such images is silly; surely in your wildest dreams you didn't imagine scoring well with something like this?
It makes no sense to imply that the voters are gutless sheep trapped in a conceptual cesspool because they elect to reserve their best scores for images that actually address this very interesting challenge head-on.
Robt. |
Well I hope I did not imply anyone was a gutless sheep. As it turns out, I must admit I did not go as far back in my research as needed. Mia Culpa. Googling "Environmental Portrait" indeed turns up the narrower definition, although three hits applied it to animals, none introduced vegetable or floral matter. I am alone on this misadventure, and it was abandoned. My biggest objection had nothing do do with points, but the DNMC stamp leaving me in the dark. I am enlightened and glad for it. |
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05/16/2006 12:30:33 PM · #62 |
I think the frustration here is
1. People not knowing what an Environmental Portrait is.
2. People knowing what it is, but not being able to execute within the criteria
3. People stretching to make a good image fit a criteria that it doesn't really belong to.
To say that keeping to a standard definition is stifling creativity is a copout IMO. Think of it on a more basic level, If the Contest was simply titled "Yellow" (and there have been several) and I enter something green because, in my mind, yellow is a part of green, am I "thinking outside the box", or am I just wrong?
I think it's the latter
Entering a picture of a bug, car, rope, etc in the Environmental Portraits challenge is the same as entering something green in the Yellow challenge.
I agree with this post ... I also believe that in a portrait, the subject is "camera aware" ... I don't believe that a flower can be camera aware ...
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05/16/2006 12:32:29 PM · #63 |
One thing I've noticed here is that "out of the box" saying being tossed around loosely which usually amounts to no more than a bad idea poorly executed. Well, a bad idea is most always the case...with a few exceptions.
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05/16/2006 12:33:14 PM · #64 |
| Hmm...I don't think you are supposed to give information that identifies a challenge entry - yours or someone elses. Proabably shouldn't be quoted either. |
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05/16/2006 12:33:35 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
One thing I've noticed here is that "out of the box" saying being tossed around loosely which usually amounts to no more than a bad idea poorly executed. Well, a bad idea is most always the case...with a few exceptions. |
And a troll is any person who rates your "out of the box" entry less than a 9. |
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05/16/2006 12:35:26 PM · #66 |
| damn this place is filled with trolls then... I just got another 4 - :) |
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05/16/2006 12:39:38 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
Hmm...I don't think you are supposed to give information that identifies a challenge entry - yours or someone elses. Proabably shouldn't be quoted either. |
OOPS... sorry, my bad. I was just trying to illustrate a point... I'll go edit my post so that it doesn't reference specific entries...
Message edited by author 2006-05-16 12:45:46. |
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05/16/2006 12:57:28 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by sabphoto:
The end of this challenge cannot come soon enough...but that only means someone will find a reason to not like something in the next challenge. |
Hah, yeah, I'm sure the fight is just revving up for Still Life now... And as usual I'll have done everything right and I'll still get a 4.something, maybe a 5.something if I'm lucky ;-)
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05/16/2006 12:58:50 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
One thing I've noticed here is that "out of the box" saying being tossed around loosely which usually amounts to no more than a bad idea poorly executed. Well, a bad idea is most always the case...with a few exceptions. |
And a troll is any person who rates your "out of the box" entry less than a 9. |
...but of course. Damn trolls!!!
However...I'm not bold enough to call my stinkers "out of the box" concepts.
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05/16/2006 01:00:22 PM · #70 |
Incidentally, I find it interesting that the title of this thread alludes to people who don't do research before the challenges.
I can see the point for animal portaits and flower portraits. Indeed, these are suitable subjects for SPECIFIC TYPES OF portraits that might be termed 'niche' types. Within their own subject, they could be called a portrait.
On the other hand, an "Environmental Portrait" also appears to be a 'niche' type of portrait. One that in its exclusivity does not appear to include animals.
There may be people out there shooting flower portraits, but they are adding something outside the strict definition of 'portrait'. That is totally fine and completely acceptable.
"Environmental Portraiture" also appears to be outside the strict definition of 'portrait' but goes in a different direction.
It's a bit of a toss-up, and I probably would have felt comfortable entering a non-human portrait, just shooting off the top of my head, but after doing the research suggested in the Original Post, I'd say that such would be a mistake.
Googling 'portrait' or 'flower portrait' is where it goes wrong. The Challenge submission is not 'portrait' or 'flower portrait'. It's 'Environmental Portrait'.
A rose is a flower, but not all flowers are roses. |
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05/16/2006 01:01:59 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
The end of this challenge cannot come soon enough...but that only means someone will find a reason to not like something in the next challenge. |
Hah, yeah, I'm sure the fight is just revving up for Still Life now... And as usual I'll have done everything right and I'll still get a 4.something, maybe a 5.something if I'm lucky ;-) |
Perhaps you can start teaching the rest of us how to do everything right. |
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05/16/2006 01:02:19 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
Incidentally, I find it interesting that the title of this thread alludes to people who don't do research before the challenges.
I can see the point for animal portaits and flower portraits. Indeed, these are suitable subjects for SPECIFIC TYPES OF portraits that might be termed 'niche' types. Within their own subject, they could be called a portrait.
On the other hand, an "Environmental Portrait" also appears to be a 'niche' type of portrait. One that in its exclusivity does not appear to include animals.
There may be people out there shooting flower portraits, but they are adding something outside the strict definition of 'portrait'. That is totally fine and completely acceptable.
"Environmental Portraiture" also appears to be outside the strict definition of 'portrait' but goes in a different direction.
It's a bit of a toss-up, and I probably would have felt comfortable entering a non-human portrait, just shooting off the top of my head, but after doing the research suggested in the Original Post, I'd say that such would be a mistake.
Googling 'portrait' or 'flower portrait' is where it goes wrong. The Challenge submission is not 'portrait' or 'flower portrait'. It's 'Environmental Portrait'.
A rose is a flower, but not all flowers are roses. |
Agreed, see my reply to Robert above.
Message edited by author 2006-05-16 13:03:19. |
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05/16/2006 01:03:11 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
The end of this challenge cannot come soon enough...but that only means someone will find a reason to not like something in the next challenge. |
Hah, yeah, I'm sure the fight is just revving up for Still Life now... And as usual I'll have done everything right and I'll still get a 4.something, maybe a 5.something if I'm lucky ;-) |
Perhaps you can start teaching the rest of us how to do everything right. |
Pass that dish down the table mk. |
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05/16/2006 01:05:36 PM · #74 |
| Sorry, the only dish here is crow, and I'm eating that. It is rather tasty but... one I hope to eat only rarely. |
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05/16/2006 01:07:12 PM · #75 |
| DP Challenges are very narrowly regarded by the voters. If you wish to score well then you must make your entry conform to the narrowest interpretation possible. Frequently a few DPC voters do not comptrehend the challenge description and will render unfounded DNMC verdicts, but most of the voters get it right. This does not stop me from pushing the envelope! |
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