YOU ARE SAD PEOPLE! - DPChallenge Forums

05/09/2006 02:32:26 AM · #26

Originally posted by HBunch:

We had one of those challenges...it was 'The Past' I belive. I'll find it. Ah yes. Here it is.

Hey that's neat! :) Thanks for the link. It is so nice looking through the photos knowing that they are all straight-out-of-camera. Love it... That was back in 2003, so please PLEASE can we do it again? I'm sure we have new members ever since, it would be cool to see what people can do today.

Tamron 70-180mm F/2.8 Di III VXD

05/09/2006 02:49:15 AM · #27

Originally posted by keegbow:

As bear has already mentioned he could have done that type of editing in camera so whether it was in camera or post editing does it really matter?

It matters. In-camera processing is VERY limited.

MadMan2k

Sony Alpha a6400

05/09/2006 12:00:09 PM · #28

I'd be up for it. My camera has loads of color/etc parameters that I've never bothered with so far knowing I'd use PS for every shot worth using anyway.

Man_Called_Horse

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

05/09/2006 12:03:51 PM · #29

cropping, dodging, burning, blah, blah has been a part of photography since its conception.

Granted, PS is a very powerful tool, but that is the point, it is a tool.

Fujifilm XC 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OIS

05/09/2006 09:14:55 PM · #30

Originally posted by American_Horse:

cropping, dodging, burning, blah, blah has been a part of photography since its conception.

so we must always do what others have done before?

buzzrock

Fujifilm X-M1

05/09/2006 09:17:47 PM · #31

I love toast

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/10/2006 02:46:52 AM · #32

Originally posted by crayon:

... Well as far as I'm concerned, in-camera processing/tweaks is acceptable as they are done within the limitations of the camera (and the photographer, of course) :)

This is the part I never understand about this challenge suggestion every time it makes the rounds. What is so special about in-camera processing? Bear with me, I do have a point.

It is not possible (with film or digital) to make an image with no processing decisions being made. Nope, it is simply not possible. With in-camera processing the decisions were made by a team of engineers with the goal (usually) of making some generic snapshot look decent. This is the same as the processing done at 1-hour photo-lab with film. It works well, but only when the image matches the generic snapshot profile the engineers were working with as a guide. Put any creativity into the shot and the in-camera processing starts working against you very quickly. I found this out the hard way with my old P&S -- anything I wanted to do that involved more thought than pushing the button had me second-guessing the processing the engineers were going to do to the image. The thing I love most about my D70 is that I don't have to fight the engineers anymore -- of course, the thing I hate most about my D70 is that I feel like a complete noob again with the additional processing requirements. :/

As I see it, the difference between doing the post processing in photoshop and doing it in the camera is two-fold. First, the photographer is making the decisions in PS, while the engineers are making the decisions (or being fought against) in-camera. And second, and perhaps the most telling, the post-processing is tailored to each shot in PS, but one-size fits all processing done in-camera. Both of which together allow the photographer creative control over the processing of their image.

Not allowing post-processing only provides an venue for those who have taken the time to learn the nuances of their camera and have learned to do what I will call 'stupid camera tricks', for lack of a better name. Nothing stupid about them, of course -- I call them that because I often referred to my camera as 'that stupid camera' when fighting to get it to do what I wanted it to.

I am reminded of watching Tiger Woods bouncing a golfball on the head of his club. It's cool he can do that, but did learning to do that make him a better golfer? ...or did he learn to do that in the process of being a better golfer? It is far more likely the familiarity of the heft of the club from long hours of using it provided him the necessary skills to be able to handle the ball so well, not the other way around. Likewise, the photographer who has learned to handle the post-processing tasks himself will have a lot less trouble getting the more limited processing capabilities of the camera to do what he wanted than someone that is not as accomplished. But being able to do 'stupid camera' tricks did not make them a better photographer -- being a better photographer gives them the familiarity with the task of making pictures to make the camera do tricks.

An 'in-camera' challenge to level the playing field is pointless since it doesn't level anything. Different cameras have different processing capabilities and techniques. To truly level the playing field for this, you would need to have Langdon create a script that accepted the unmodified original and then applied the exact same processing steps to everyone's image. I'm sure the signup sheet for such a challenge will fill up just as quickly as it has for an 'in-camera' challenge. The two challenges are exactly the same in fundemental ways -- the most notible of which is that it's not the photographer that is in control of the final preparation of the images.

David

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

05/10/2006 02:51:34 AM · #33

Originally posted by David.C:

Bear with me, I do have a point.

Just skimmed through your post David, and I second your suggestion for a Tiger Woods challenge.

...but only if there is no post-processing allowed. ;-P

Tim

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.4G

05/10/2006 03:03:32 AM · #34

I think its it's a great challenge suggestion - but thats only because I know I can control my camera settings to produce saturated, sharpened images straight from the camera. If I'm shooting 200 images at a family party I'll have my camera set up totally differently to when I'm taking a photo I might want to enter in a challenge or print and put on the wall.
So a "straight from the camera" will just advantage all the SLR users who know their way around the menu settings over the point and shoot users who have to rely on the camera engineers to get a decent photo.
This is probably just as unfair as the current situation when CS2 users have a lot more control over their image than someone who can only use Picasa or microsoft photo editor.
So, whats my point? don't really have one I suppose... just that its drawing a long bow to suggest that this will level the playing field. The field isn't level (quite lumpuy as far as I can tell) and it never will be.
But I would still like to participate in a straight from camera challenge, it would be "challenging"!!!

05/10/2006 03:07:00 AM · #35

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by David.C:
Bear with me, I do have a point.

Just skimmed through your post David, and I second your suggestion for a Tiger Woods challenge.

...but only if there is no post-processing allowed. ;-P

05/10/2006 03:10:40 AM · #36

Originally posted by HBunch:

We had one of those challenges...it was 'The Past' I belive. I'll find it. Ah yes. Here it is.

David.C,
It's been done before. This is just a small request to have it run once again after 3 years. But with all the bashing I'm getting, lets just close the thread. This is a waste of time.

Message edited by author 2006-05-10 03:11:08.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.4G

05/10/2006 03:12:37 AM · #37

Originally posted by dr_timbo:

But I would still like to participate in a straight from camera challenge, it would be "challenging"!!!

Thanks for seeing the positive side of the suggestion.

Tim

Nikon D300

05/10/2006 03:21:11 AM · #38

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by dr_timbo:

But I would still like to participate in a straight from camera challenge, it would be "challenging"!!!

Thanks for seeing the positive side of the suggestion.

I think it would be an interesting challenge to see how we go without one of our most common tools - the crop. Looking at all the photos I've submitted, all of them have been cropped in some way.

Message edited by author 2006-05-10 03:21:40.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

05/10/2006 04:16:46 AM · #39

Originally posted by dr_timbo:

I think it would be an interesting challenge to see how we go without one of our most common tools - the crop. Looking at all the photos I've submitted, all of them have been cropped in some way.

dont even think about suggesting that! Those people without a 100% view from the viewfinders will stalk you, prey on you for even suggesting that! LOL! :p

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

05/10/2006 05:32:56 AM · #40

Originally posted by David.C:

... An 'in-camera' challenge to level the playing field is pointless since it doesn't level anything. Different cameras have different processing capabilities and techniques. To truly level the playing field for this, you would need to ...

...have everyone use a disposable camera, you know, those one-time use little box things? ;^)

Now I wonder, do they make those in a digital format?

Telehubbie

Canon EOS-40D

05/10/2006 08:04:18 AM · #41

Originally posted by glad2badad:

...have everyone use a disposable camera, you know, those one-time use little box things? ;^)

Now I wonder, do they make those in a digital format?

Yup, been out a while but I've never used one. Check it out here.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

05/10/2006 08:13:47 AM · #42

Originally posted by Telehubbie:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

...have everyone use a disposable camera, you know, those one-time use little box things? ;^)

Now I wonder, do they make those in a digital format?

Yup, been out a while but I've never used one. Check it out here.

I've seen where you can also get one-time disposable video cam's now also. $20 at RitzCamera...20 minutes of video. ;^)

goc

Apple iPhone 4

05/10/2006 08:48:11 AM · #43

:-)

just to remind you all about the best camera in the world and around the sun : the best camera is the one which makes best quality photos at full automatic settings

right?

05/10/2006 02:33:39 PM · #44

Originally posted by crayon:

David.C,
It's been done before. This is just a small request to have it run once again after 3 years. But with all the bashing I'm getting, lets just close the thread. This is a waste of time.

If someone has been bashing you personally I've missed it -- it was certainly not my intention.

The idea of having a challenge that concentrates on pre-processing -- that which takes place before clicking the shutter -- is a good one. The stumbling point is in the no post-processing. That is simply not possible. Either in-camera or out, all images are post-processed. Allowing only in-camera processing seriously limits what the P&S users can do. Having had the experience of fighting a P&S's processing with everything I wanted to do and then making the move to a dSLR I can tell you the camera is not posing any limitations for me anymore. I haven't yet learned to 'do it all myself', but the potential is there. It is even possible to take an image of a scene, apply curves to it until the tonality is right, make a custom curve and upload it to the camera. Then when the scene is retaken the custom post-processing would be applied in-camera.

An in-camera challenges forces the participants to put their attention on their equipment. I for one have worked long and hard to be able to take my attention off of my equipment and concentrate on the image.

I understand what you are wanting to accomplish, but I don't feel a blanket limitation like 'in-camera only' is going to accomplish it. I feel it would be far better to pick some aspect of pre-processing and have a challenge concentrating on that specific aspect -- the various lighting challenges come to mind (multiple light source, etc). The 2-sec challenge was an example of how that sort of challenge can go wrong though -- special rules are needed to enforce the challenge topic. Fortunately, that problem is now known and can be easily handled.

Not against the attention, pre-processing is vital to a great image and should be concentrated on -- but I feel it is best to concentrate on specific elements individually.

David

05/11/2006 12:29:31 AM · #45

Originally posted by David.C:

I feel it is best to concentrate on specific elements individually.

Lets have a no-cropping challenge ;)
//me runs off and hide

Message edited by author 2006-05-11 00:31:19.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

05/11/2006 12:39:01 AM · #46

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by David.C:
I feel it is best to concentrate on specific elements individually.

Lets have a no-cropping challenge ;)
//me runs off and hide

That's one I can support -- not that my support is needed or anything. :P

David

tate

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

05/11/2006 01:30:30 PM · #47

This is the exact thing my wife requests every time we discuss my habit of submitting photos to this site!!! ...
I think a "No-crop, no rotate, no sharpening, no anything" challenge is a great idea! Now I can spend all of the time messing with the camera rather than the computer.

Even basic editting photos often get over-worked by some 'tographers using neat image/noise ninja or whatever.

Message edited by author 2006-05-11 13:30:55.

raish

Olympus C-2500L

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

05/16/2006 05:34:59 PM · #48

There are things called film cameras, which produce rolls of film with negative images. If you print these images as positives straight off - or even better if you get someone else to print them - then you have a true unedited image from the camera. I'm sure there's a photography club near you where they still do this sort of thing and where you can get and give all sorts of feedback.