Color correction help needed - DPChallenge Forums

05/01/2006 12:43:42 PM · #1

I switched to a new lab.
I sent them some images that I shot last year (wedding) on my 300D.
They are too red (skin tones). After getting the prints back, I agree.

Yes, my monitor is color corrected (last week...) and I know how to CC in PS (at least 2 ways).

this brings up these questions to which i need some answers if you can!

What is 'correct' color? The lab has one opinion, apparently I have another -why am I wrong? How can I be more right?

So, is it my 300D? I know my Fuji S602z's images were too green - are canon's too red? My 300D is on ebay now, so it may not matter, BUT

I have a 30D and 20D to shoot this year. I have a wedding in 2 weeks. I need proper color from both cameras. What can I do from now till then to assure me I'll get proper color? and that the two match? (the 30D has picture styles the 20D does not).

So do all canon cameras run red? With the Picture styles I got portrait, neutral and faithful (and others) - what is 'correct'? Is that best?

SOOOO confused...

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

05/01/2006 06:03:08 PM · #2

So no-one here knows anything about color correction? A bit scary.

dwterry

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

05/01/2006 06:11:06 PM · #3

Does your lab offer a color printer profile? You can pull that into PhotoShop and that will let you preview the image using the printer's profile and you can then color correct before sending the image off to the lab.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

05/01/2006 06:12:11 PM · #4

I'm not the most experienced person in this regard, but it seems that if one lab produced color that was what you expected, but the other does not, that there is misinterpretation of your color profiles. What profile, if any, is embedded in the files you're sending to the lab? Does the lab have specific color profiles for their printers that you can load for proofing? What are the lab's assumptions in the absence of a color profile (should be sRGB)?
I do know that Canon cams using Picture Styles may produce oversaturated reds on the default picture style. Shooting on "Faithful" or "Neutral" solves this issue. I don't think this si the root of your problem. Since the photos look right on your calibrated monitor, it's either an editing/proofing workspace issue, or an interpretaion issue between you & the lab.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

05/01/2006 10:23:36 PM · #5

Finally have some time today to look at this...I am using PS 7.

They lab sent me a disk with a TIF file and a print. The TIF file has an embedded color profile.
So i have the default adobe color, the lab's one i loaded in (i think..) and the one i created when i color corrected my monitor using Spyder2.

When my friend that has CS2 has in image open in PS and changes the color space/profile the image visably changes.

when i do it (ctrl-shift-k) i see no change at all.

What am I doing wrong?

-kirbic - what color is white copy paper? White. Well, there is 84 thru 105 in how white it is. I'll give you a random sheet - it looks white to you. When I give you another one to hold next to it - uh oh - it's not white anymore, it's off white. Point being, what looks right to me may not be right.
What is right anyway?

For all Here is teh issue: My last lab was a consumer lab, my new lab is a pro lab. BIG difference apparently. Old lab - they print what you send them, and it looked like what i saw on my monitor - so I thought i was OK. Calibrated monitor, prints match, done deal. Not so fast there. The new lab says my pics are too red, so they correct, and i check their prints against my monitor - yep, I am too red.

How to correct this is the question. I can turn down the red on the monitor, but that don't fix it. I need to have less red in the file they get. Even when I CC by the numbers the end result still seems a tad red, but better - but that's the hard and long way to things - fine for one or two prints, but not feasible for hundreds from a wedding.

here is a look at a part of image in question. left is what i get, right is what (or at least closer) to what the lab says is correct.

Message edited by author 2006-05-01 22:23:51.

Bobster

Canon EOS-20D

05/02/2006 06:34:47 PM · #6

ask your lab for their colour space and set your system to it for anything you're going to send to them..

the lab doesn't use your printer to do their prints, so matching ur monitor to your printer does you no good unless you use the printer to make the prints..

Bobster

Canon EOS-20D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

05/02/2006 06:36:38 PM · #7

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

when i do it (ctrl-shift-k) i see no change at all.

can u post a screenshot of your colour settings?

fotomann_forever

05/02/2006 06:44:36 PM · #8

Color space is your issue.

Consumer labs most always use sRGB as the color space, because that is the color space of most cousumer files that are brought to the lab.

Pro labs will more often use larger color spaces that will shift colors if you send them files in sRGB.

Have the lab send you a color profile for thier printer and output your files as that color space.

05/02/2006 06:57:01 PM · #9

Originally posted by dwterry:

Listen to David(dwterry)... he knows of what he speaks!

My only support of him is to say that each printer AND paper combination needs to have its own ICC profile. If you have the actual ICC profile for the printer and paper they use then you can check by selecting it in proof setup. That is what it is for.

I'd further recommend that to make any adjustments for your service provider in separate, labeled adjustment layers. That makes it easy for you to turn them off when they are not needed.

Now... if your monitor is properly calibrated AND you use the color space they use AND you have their actual ICC profile for the printer and paper they will be using for printing on AND you have all your other PS settings consistent with that then what you see is what you will get.

Truth is, though, you will only ever be able to be close.

05/02/2006 06:59:30 PM · #10

Update...
Got my new monitor, installed and calibrated.
The lab wants sRGB colorspace.
my 30D is set (factgory defaulted i guess) to sRGB.
web wants sRGB
so I guess sRGB is my world now.

Not that i think that was an issue. If the lab(s) leave my pics alone, i get a perfect match. SOOOO, one of two things.

Possibly my CC procedure is flawed. This is not likely the case, but one can correct for whatever you want it to look like.........assd the other thing is i think my Rebel was too red all the time on skin tones. That can be fixed in PP, but shold be corrected in camera.

Which brings up this issue:
And what is correct? What is correct in the camera?
My 30D has picture styles - pre set 'film' emulations if you will. Standard, Portrait, Neutral, Faithful, and Monochrome.
and each one is tweakable for saturation, tone, and sharpness (maybe somthing else too). Each definitely looks different, color wise.

So what is correct?
and can i get the 20D to emulate the 30D in color?

See, this gets complicated and non-concrete in a hurry.

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

05/02/2006 07:30:50 PM · #11

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

...
so I guess sRGB is my world now.
...

So what is correct?
and can i get the 20D to emulate the 30D in color?

See, this gets complicated and non-concrete in a hurry.

First, I would not be so quick to go all sRGB. Adobe RGB (1998) in 16-bit mode is a world better for POST PROCESSING than sRGB. Why, you ask? Because it is a much richer color space. Even when you later have to convert back to sRGB for your service provider you will get better prints with less banding and fewer digital artifacting.

Second, make adjustments for your print service provider in post processing, not in your camera. Adjust your camera to minimize any effects that its less sophisticated image processor may introduce. Whatever it does you can do better in Photoshop. Remember, printing is only one output possibility, if you make all your adjustments for that then you will have to adjust for everything else in post.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

05/02/2006 08:14:51 PM · #12

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Which brings up this issue:
And what is correct? What is correct in the camera?
My 30D has picture styles - pre set 'film' emulations if you will. Standard, Portrait, Neutral, Faithful, and Monochrome.
and each one is tweakable for saturation, tone, and sharpness (maybe somthing else too). Each definitely looks different, color wise.

So what is correct?
and can i get the 20D to emulate the 30D in color?

See, this gets complicated and non-concrete in a hurry.

What's correct is what results in a print that looks correct to you, assuming that it also pleases the client. IMO, all the picture styles excepting Faithful and Neutral are too contrasty. You're better off with a less contrasty tone curve in-camera, and get what you want in conversion & post. The default "Standard" profile is also quite "hot" in the reds.
You can make the 20D look precisely like the 30D. Shoot RAW in both, convert using DPP, and apply the same picture style. Somehow, though, I suspect this is not a great solution for you.

05/02/2006 08:50:50 PM · #13

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Which brings up this issue:
And what is correct? What is correct in the camera?
My 30D has picture styles - pre set 'film' emulations if you will. Standard, Portrait, Neutral, Faithful, and Monochrome.
and each one is tweakable for saturation, tone, and sharpness (maybe somthing else too). Each definitely looks different, color wise.

So what is correct?
and can i get the 20D to emulate the 30D in color?

See, this gets complicated and non-concrete in a hurry.

What's correct is what results in a print that looks correct to you, assuming that it also pleases the client. IMO, all the picture styles excepting Faithful and Neutral are too contrasty. You're better off with a less contrasty tone curve in-camera, and get what you want in conversion & post. The default "Standard" profile is also quite "hot" in the reds.
You can make the 20D look precisely like the 30D. Shoot RAW in both, convert using DPP, and apply the same picture style. Somehow, though, I suspect this is not a great solution for you.

You know what your problem is, kirbic? You are too damned smart. You know to much. Your information is always correct.

If you expect women to strip naked in front of you for no apparent reason at all then you have to be wrong every once in a while. You have to appear flawed and vulnerable. How do you think kiwiness does it?

I'm sure your wife would understand.

Message edited by author 2006-05-02 20:51:32.

05/02/2006 09:08:49 PM · #14

Originally posted by kirbic:

Why the suspicion?
For weddings I shoot RAW, I use DPP for conversions...
I looked a bit at the styles in the 30D - you can tweak them, but the actual 'style' is hard coded in there. I suspect the same may be true of the 20D as well - even if you/I use the picture style to convert the image. Don't know - gotta go check up on this. maybe thursday I'll have time. heavy week this one, and I want, er, need to be ready on the 15th for a wedding.

I have heard faithful is probably the best (from what i recolect of reviews of the 5D...not that i paid lots of attention 8 months ago to reviews of a camera i wasnt' gonna buy)

stdavidson anytime you convert from one space to another you have issues. so in theory, if the camera is set to adobe and so is PS, i have the most to work with, and can convert at the last moment to sRGB. BUT i just did all the PP work in the wrong color space - assuming I was adjusting for the final output - try this: do up an image in adobe RGB. convert to CMYK - colors will shift. sometimes drastically.

Whose website you choose to believe is up to you, but i found this one discussing the diff between sRGB and AdobeRGB. I also have (borrowed) scott kelby's CS2 book. Kelby recomends adobe RGB -BUT if you are adfjusting for a lab that uses sRGB then do your work in sRGB he says. The problem is inkjet printers are Adobe RGB - the rest of my stuff is all sRGB. But then, i don't have an inkjet so files for that ouput will be few and far between (large giclee prints maybe?)

05/02/2006 09:31:06 PM · #15

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

stdavidson anytime you convert from one space to another you have issues. so in theory, if the camera is set to adobe and so is PS, i have the most to work with, and can convert at the last moment to sRGB. BUT i just did all the PP work in the wrong color space - assuming I was adjusting for the final output - try this: do up an image in adobe RGB. convert to CMYK - colors will shift. sometimes drastically.

Whose website you choose to believe is up to you, but i found this one discussing the diff between sRGB and AdobeRGB. I also have (borrowed) scott kelby's CS2 book. Kelby recomends adobe RGB -BUT if you are adfjusting for a lab that uses sRGB then do your work in sRGB he says. The problem is inkjet printers are Adobe RGB - the rest of my stuff is all sRGB. But then, i don't have an inkjet so files for that ouput will be few and far between (large giclee prints maybe?)

You make valid points. I know from my own experience, particularly with large prints, that Adobe RGB (1998) works best FOR ME. But I have an inkjet printer and don't have need to convert to CMYK. I've validated my own experinece many times over. Working in 16-bit color takes an outragious amount of space and CPU cycles so I would not do it if it did not provide tangible results for me.

Scott Kelby knows his stuff. I wouldn't disagree with him.

But I will tell you this. I would be hard pressed to post process in anything other than a robust color space. If I ever have need to convert to CMYK for sending to a print service provider I will make that part of my workflow for preparing an output image for print from my post processed master file.

jfwolpert