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04/29/2006 12:45:18 PM · #1 |
I was just browsing this site and checking up on old challenges and stuff when I ran into this. This was said by another user in this thread.
"... by fatwah (muslim religous law proclamation) it is OK for a devout muslim to behave in a manner that contradicts mulsim law if it is in
service to a jihad, which, as we all know, is a war declared by a cleric. So, technically, yes, a muslim who is fighting a jihad may photograph naked women if it is in support of the jihad. ...."
I don't wanna fight anyone, but I think (not sure) I am the only muslim on this site and I have a right to clarify a few things about my religion.
Firstly, Jihad does not mean Holy War or anything even close to it. In Arabic, Jihad means struggling or striving and applies to any effort
exerted by anyone. If we translate the words "holy war" back into Arabic we find "harbun muqaddasatun", or for "the holy war", "al-harbu
al-muqaddasatu". I challenge anyone to find the meaning of "jihad" as holy war in the Qur'an or authentic Hadith (saying of the Prophet
Muhammad) collections or in any authentic Islamic literature.
According to Islamic teachings, it is unholy to instigate or start war; however, some wars are inevitable and justifiable. Wars have been
happening before Islam, and wars happen everywhere in the world. No war by muslims in the era of the Prophet were started to spread Islam or
for land or money. Wars were fought when muslims were attacked, even when they had been driven out of their homes and land and had settled
elsewhere. Just because a few lunatic muslims have turned into terrorists, does not mean that Islam teaches war or anything like that. People make mistakes. Slavery was a mistake. The dropping of nukes on Japan was a mistake. Killings in schools in America (by a Christian) was a mistake. That does not mean that Christians or americans are bad. It is just something done by a few loonies who give a bad reputation to their religion and their country.
There are different categories of Jihad, and yes Jihad can also mean war in the name of Islam, but that can only be the case if the supreme
ruler (The Caliph) of all muslims orders it. Nothing of that sort exists now, so no one can declare war as Jihad. One of the other forms of Jihad as taught in Islam are struggling against one's own self in making the right decision. A person who wants to quit smoking is also engaged in a form of Jihad, when he tries to struggle and give up a bad habit. Deciding between right and wrong is also a struggle. Islam does not tell muslims to fight other people even when they are being oppressed. The Koran says :
"... (the angels) will ask: in what you were engaged? They will say: we were oppressed in the land. (The angels) will say: was not Allah's
earth spacious that you could have migrated therein? ..." 4:97
and
"...those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape persecution) and strive in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy ..."
2:218
Other sayings of the Prophet clarify the true and deeper meaning of Jihad :
Aisha, wife of the Prophet asked, "O Messenger of Allah, we see jihad as the best of deeds, so shouldn't we join it?" He replied, "But, the
best of jihad is a perfect pilgrimage to Makkah."
At another occasion a man asked the Prophet :
"Should I join the jihad?" He asked, "Do you have parents?" The man said, "Yes!" The Prophet said, "then strive by (serving) them!"
A man asked the Messenger of Allah:
"What kind of jihad is better?" He replied, "A word of truth in front of an oppressive ruler!"
The Koran permits fighting to defend the religion of Islam and the Muslims. This permission includes fighting in self defense and for the
protection of family and property.
"Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress limits. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors. ... And fight
them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against transgressors." 2:190,193
Even during war, muslims were ordered to attack only the men who were fighting, and not the women, children, and the elderly who were not
taking part in the war.
"... Allah commands you that you restore deposits to their owners, and if you judge between mankind that you judge justly..." 4:58
"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah's witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice." 5:8
Here is a good study of the question of the spread of Islam by a Christian missionary, T.W. Arnold:
"... of any organized attempt to force the acceptance of Islam on the non-Muslim population, or of any systematic persecution intended to stamp out the Christian religion, we hear nothing. Had the caliphs chosen to adopt either course of action, they might have swept away Christianity as easily as Ferdinand and Isabella drove Islam out of Spain, or Louis XIV made Protestantism penal in France, or the Jews were kept out of England for 350 years. The Eastern Churches in Asia were entirely cut off from communion with the rest of Christiandom throughout which no one would have been found to lift a finger on their behalf, as heretical communions. So that the very survival of these Churches to the present day is a strong proof of the generally tolerant attitude of the Mohammedan governments towards them."
Jihad in Islam is striving in the way of Allah by pen, tongue, hand, media and, if inevitable, with arms. However, jihad in Islam does not
include striving for individual or national power, dominance, glory, wealth, prestige or pride.
And obviously Islam does not allow, under any situation, for muslims to take pictures of naked women. Islam does not even allow us to photograph living things. But people do it. Just like drinking and sexual relations are disallowed in almost all religions, but people do it anyways.
So please do not associate the word Jihad with Holy War or anything like that. There is no such Holy War going on. We muslims equally hate
terrorism and Osama and his likes, just as everyone else in the world. And when someone says "Allah Ho Akbar", it does not mean he is declaring war, it just means "God is Great", and everyone says that ;-)
Furthermore, the Internet is full of bogus websites with false translations of the Koran and wrong interpretations of the saying of the Prophet and Islamic Law. I have come across sites which call the Prophet a child molestor and such things. These people just want everyone to fight and create hatred amongst us. Everything I have said and quoted can be easily verified through proper sources. All the facts have been well documented and written about, by muslim as well as non-muslim scholars and historians.
I hope I have made things clear. So please before making a comment like this, get your facts straight.
Message edited by ClubJuggle - Removed name. |
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04/29/2006 12:52:10 PM · #2 |
I wish that more people, Muslims and Christians alike, would practice those peaceful teachings, rather than interpreting the passages in their religious texts as justification to do harm to others. Unfortunately, it hasn't always worked out that way, but it's a great goal to strive for.
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04/29/2006 12:58:35 PM · #3 |
That's a great post, thanks for sharing.
All of the Muslims I know are good, peaceful people. There are extrimilsts in just about any faith who pervert the teachings of that faith in an attempt to justify bringing harm to others. It's sad that, at least within Islam, those people have gotten so much attention that people associate those actions with adherents of Islam as a group.
~Terry
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04/29/2006 01:04:15 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by ignite:
And obviously Islam does not allow, under any situation, for muslims to take pictures of naked women. Islam does not even allow us to photograph living things. |
Well, I guess if abortion procedures can be mentioned in the Bible, then photography can be mentioned in the Quran.
Unfortunately, the highly aggressive behavior of Western countries in the Middle East, which has continued for centuries, give terrorists the excuse of self-defense. I am glad most Muslims condemn it. I hope most Christians condemn the excesses of Western foreign policy.
edited to be slightly less volatile
Message edited by author 2006-04-29 13:21:38.
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04/29/2006 01:08:05 PM · #5 |
Thanks for posting this. Very well-reasoned and well-stated.
Robt.
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04/29/2006 01:09:22 PM · #6 |
| Is it possible to discuss this wihtout pointing fingers at specific people? If the purpose was not to fight a specific person, but rather to discuss the topic, then why mention WHO said it and where they said it at all? |
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04/29/2006 01:12:13 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by ignite:
And obviously Islam does not allow, under any situation, for muslims to take pictures of naked women. Islam does not even allow us to photograph living things. |
Well, I guess if abortion procedures can be mentioned in the Bible, then photography can be mentioned in the Quran...
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Hehe, no actually it is not in the Koran. There is a council of religious scholars who make changes to the Islamic law as needed, like declaring smoking as being against religion, as it is harmful to the body etc.. Actually the Koran forbids drawing of living creatures, so it is common sense that photography of living things should also not be allowed. |
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04/29/2006 01:14:10 PM · #8 |
Thank you for such a fine enightening post, ignite. It was well presented.
It's a shame we can't all put our differences aside and become a world of friends.
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04/29/2006 01:15:05 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by ignite:
Killings in schools in America (by a Christian) was a mistake. That does not mean that Christians or americans are bad. It is just something done by a few loonies who give a bad reputation to their religion and their country.
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Just as a question? Killings in schools are a mistake, period, but that is not my issue with this statement. I am simply curious as to what incident you are referring to. I follow national news fairly closely, and I don't remember a shooting done specifically by someone claiming to be a Christian. Granted, I may have missed it, so I would truly appreciate a link or education, here. Also, I acknowledge that there have been some fruitcakes that have done some stuff in the name of Christ that directly contradict His teachings. That does not mean they are a Christian, but I'll save that debate for another topic.
I bring it up because in my dealings with others in other countries, I have found that many, many, many people associate American with Christian and vice versa. If you live in America, you are a Christian, whether you profess Jesus Christ or not. I just wanted to clarify that that was not what was happening here.
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04/29/2006 01:15:39 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by HBunch:
Is it possible to discuss this wihtout pointing fingers at specific people? If the purpose was not to fight a specific person, but rather to discuss the topic, then why mention WHO said it and where they said it at all? |
I'm sure the OP wasn't thinking about that aspect. It's ancient history, threadwise, anyway; why not edit the info out of the original post for us?
R.
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04/29/2006 01:16:28 PM · #11 |
Hey, I am not fighting him. I didn't even say anything bad about him. I just wanted people to know that I wasn't making this up or anything, and that he did not make that comment in reply to anything said against him or his religion.
And come on, I am sure if I hadn't mentioned his name, everyone would have searched it and found out anyways. Just go to Google Advanced search, type is the domain, and you can search the entire site through Google hehe ;-) |
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04/29/2006 01:22:11 PM · #12 |
Link to CNN's reports on school killings:
Are US schools safe?
BBC Report:
Link
I may be wrong about the shooters being Christian. Point is, whatever their religion, it is no reason to associate everyone following that religon with terrorism etc..
Message edited by author 2006-04-29 13:26:59. |
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04/29/2006 01:27:37 PM · #13 |
Yes. You said, "Killing in schools (by a Christian)" Which one of those shootings refers to "by a Christian." I am not trying to be inflammatory here, in any manner, but to point to something like that, and add "by a Christian" leads me to believe that 1) You want to paint Christianity in a bad light or 2) you think all Americans are Christian. Honestly, I am hoping it is #2.
In perhaps the most "famous" shooting, or the most publicized, Columbine, the shooters were very definitely not Christian and never claimed to be as such. In fact, at least two of their victims Cassie Bernall and Rachel Scott were Christians and there has been speculation that they were targeted for that reason.
edit -- you edited your post after mine was written. In no shootings I have heard/read about have the shooters claimed to be Christian or any mainstream religion. To assume such would be as wrong as me to assume that because my neighbor is middle eastern, he is looking to blow me up.
Message edited by author 2006-04-29 13:30:53. |
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04/29/2006 01:39:43 PM · #14 |
Yeah I already said I may be wrong about them being Christians. Just that when I heard the news on tv they did not say anything like "children killed by muslim terrorists" hehe, and by their names I assumed they were. Sorry about that.
And about painting christianity (or any other religion) in a bad light, I can't. You probably did not know this, but there are a lot of similarities between christianity and islam. Believing in the angels, in Christ, and other messengers like Moses and a lot of other things are also an integral part of Islam. So if I say anything bad about other religions, especially christianity, I will be actually saying bad things about islam.
Message edited by author 2006-04-29 13:45:22. |
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04/29/2006 01:41:36 PM · #15 |
la la...
Edit.
Message edited by author 2006-04-29 13:42:49. |
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04/29/2006 06:44:35 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by ignite:
I may be wrong about the shooters being Christian. Point is, whatever their religion, it is no reason to associate everyone following that religon with terrorism etc.. |
I don't think we should get too hung up about whether any of the American school shootings of recent times were perpetrated by Christians or not, and so losing the essence of ignite's original post. If we substitute another offensive act by someone who definitely is (claiming to be) a Christian, then the essence of ignite's original post is maintained. A high-profile US Christian minister's call for a certain world leader to be assassinated would be one option to choose.
I have been staggered by some of the things some high-profile Christians have said and done (I'm thinking more about waging war and hatred and oppressing the vulnerable, not about personal lapses of morality which we're all vulnerable to), that seem to be so fundamentally against the teachings of Christ. It makes sense that many Muslims would feel the same way about certain people, and their attitudes, being seen as representative of Islam rather than gross distortions of it.
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04/29/2006 07:47:19 PM · #17 |
Americans and the entire world forgets far too fast. Did we all forget the Oklahoma Federal building was a white American ex-military guy. No blacks, hispanics, muslims, etc etc. I have been to that site, shed a tear as I'm sure many others have in New York, London and other places. The Columbine High School was the same. No conspiracy just good people turned bad. There are bad in all parts of society and THEY should be found and delt with. If anyone proposes evil or insinuates that evil should happen, they should be fully investigated; they have lost their rights of free speech when their actions, words or ideals put others in danger. War is hell, that's why there are military people; they are the ones who have volunteered to do the battles for each nation. Yes in fact most religions have brought faith and hope to millions but have also brought death and servitude to millions. Countries under the banner of the Catholic church for hundreds of years destroyed nations in the name of God. This is now over, any religion that supports death of humans is an association of people at the most and not a religion. I have met people from all over the world, I've been lucky maybe but have never ran into a situation where friendship was not possible. Radicals come in every different color and nationality, just like bank robbers and rapists. Sometimes they are our neighbors and we never will now. At least here at DPC we should offer the hand of friendship and not allow extreme radical beliefs or even disturbing photos become a norm. This one site should always remain as a family friendly site where photography is fun even if it is frustrating.
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04/29/2006 10:07:50 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by ignite:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by ignite:
And obviously Islam does not allow, under any situation, for muslims to take pictures of naked women. Islam does not even allow us to photograph living things. |
Well, I guess if abortion procedures can be mentioned in the Bible, then photography can be mentioned in the Quran...
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Hehe, no actually it is not in the Koran. ... Actually the Koran forbids drawing of living creatures, so it is common sense that photography of living things should also not be allowed. |
Agreed that it is a short jump in logic to disallow automated drawing if all drawings are to be disallowed. But does it say why the drawings are not allowed?
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04/29/2006 10:28:25 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by David.C:
Agreed that it is a short jump in logic to disallow automated drawing if all drawings are to be disallowed. But does it say why the drawings are not allowed? |
As a logical guess I'd say it derives from the Old Testament prohibition on the making of graven images, and of idol-worship.
As exemplified by the cave paintings at Altamira, humans have apparently/presumably used pictures of animals in an attempt to influence the outcome of their hunting efforts for thousands of years.
All three branches of the religion founded by Abraham require a belief in a single god, and a renunciation of the animal spirits or totems which inhabit the mythologies of other parts of the world -- to make an image of them would suggest a belief in and attempt to invoke powers other than Yaweh/Jehovah/Allah ...
Though these are not the only belief systems which frown on photographs ...
Message edited by author 2006-04-29 22:29:54. |
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04/29/2006 10:45:31 PM · #20 |
| There is something inherently wrong with using religon as the end all for the way you think. Its the power of suggestion and interpretation, sadly people take it at face value without really doing some soul searching first. Seems everytime religon is brought up, minds are made up and stances are already formed. Personally I will go with my gut of what I feel is right or wrong, and not let religon cloud my judgement... |
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04/29/2006 10:54:52 PM · #21 |
Personally, I have found very few "problems" with the tenets of of most of the religions I have come across -- they seem remarkable similar once you strip away the provincial rhetoric.
Almost all of the problems seem to derive from the practices of the organizations formed to promote those religions, apparently in a cutthroat competition to acquire the greatest share of a limited number of souls ....
BTW MQuinn: Your username is almost the same as the nom de plume of one of the great satirists and political commentators of early/mid-twentieth century San Francisco, Mike Quin. A collection of his articles and essays was collected in a book, On The Drumhead.
Message edited by author 2006-04-29 23:46:11. |
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04/29/2006 10:57:13 PM · #22 |
Every religious philosophy is beautiful, It's in the interpretation that things can get ugly. The end goal of each religion is to become attoned with the greater being. There is where the attention should be focused in order to become one of the enlightened. One who understands those who are not.
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04/29/2006 11:04:48 PM · #23 |
Ignite, you seem to be a voice of reason and peace. It is truly a shame that the radical extremists of your faith are stealing your good name and generally inciting the disgust and ire of the non-Muslim world. Not that other cultures and faiths are blameless, far from it. But the willingness of young Muslims, in demented zeal, to commit mass murder does not bring sympathy to the Muslim causes. The world perceives Islam as an abberration largely because the Muslim voices advocating peace are too weak and too few. We see and hear on a daily basis the Mullahs and Clerics spouting their dogmatic fascism and hatred of anything non-muslim.
Recent events in Afghanistan concerning a convert to Christianity has reinforced the world's perception of the brutality and dogma of the Muslim extremists. Most of the world is rather liberal in their tolerance of other faiths and choose to coexist in peace.
May peace decend to you and yours. |
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04/30/2006 02:21:00 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by ignite:
Yeah I already said I may be wrong about them being Christians. Just that when I heard the news on tv they did not say anything like "children killed by muslim terrorists" hehe, and by their names I assumed they were. Sorry about that. |
Ignite, I appreciate your comments and clarification. I need to make an important clarification here too. You said you assumed the shooters to be Christian by their names, but you cannot assume that someone who has an American name is a Christian. One becomes a Christian by choice, not by birth. Many Americans are not followers of Christ.
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04/30/2006 03:17:58 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Faye Pekas:
Originally posted by ignite:
Yeah I already said I may be wrong about them being Christians. Just that when I heard the news on tv they did not say anything like "children killed by muslim terrorists" hehe, and by their names I assumed they were. Sorry about that. |
Ignite, I appreciate your comments and clarification. I need to make an important clarification here too. You said you assumed the shooters to be Christian by their names, but you cannot assume that someone who has an American name is a Christian. One becomes a Christian by choice, not by birth. Many Americans are not followers of Christ. |
And in any event, ought not the relevant question be whether or not the deed was done in the name of faith, not the actual faith of the doer? I mean, I'm a Christian, but if I went psotal and took out half my neigborhood or something, nobody would say "See what Christians do!" But if I perpetrate an act of terrorism or murder while proclaiming "I do this in the name of the Lord!" then that's another thing altogether, surely?
So the problem is that these radical extremists at least claim to be doing their work in Allah's name, and they do a lot of it too. So the religion itself is (naturally enough) getting some very bad (and biased) press.
This seems obvious to me; that the kids shooting up schools are Christian, as far as I can tell, is neither here nor there unless one group of 'em or the other believe's they are doing the Lord's work...
I am rambling...
R.
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