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04/24/2006 12:44:44 PM · #51 |
Why can't it wait until after voting starts? Why won't anyone address that question? [/quote]
"I also think it could be the most powerful learning tool. Some people, from what I've seen make the same mistakes over and over and having someone help put the breaks on a potentially low scoring decisions could make things really help things to sink. "
I gave someone advice on what became their highest scoring entry. They didn't initially see or understand what I was talking about with my suggestions. After they followed my advice point by point, positive comments rolled in supporting what I'd advised and only then it all sunk in. They finally got it.
I agree that it could skew the voting by 1/100 or a 1/1000 of a point.
Message edited by author 2006-04-24 12:46:31.
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04/24/2006 01:47:47 PM · #52 |
I am socked.. I really donât know what to say. First of all I want to thank notonline for watching my back for me and the support. Then again I would like to thank all the really nice people who PM-ed me and where willing to help.
I am unbelievably stunned that people donât understand my point of view. I tell my self thatâs because these same people are just so lucky to have a pure talent and not know how it feels to have to ask for help. I am sorry for offending people by my silly request. I am sorry for ever even thinking about asking people I donât know for help and Iâm sorry if Iâm making a stir in you little community. And yeah donât bother commenting on my photos since âIt seems my goal is a higher score, not to learn by waiting for comments.â What Bulls*** !!!
I AM NOT going to send any of you my photos, and Iâm most surely not asking for help here again,
congratulations Mr. Coolhar you have won!
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04/24/2006 02:18:39 PM · #53 |
| Well...glad that's settled. ;^) |
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04/24/2006 02:28:36 PM · #54 |
Krisby, the purpose of this site is to learn. I just feel that challenge entries should be the sole work of the photographer and that learning should be done during the challenge via comments, or after the challenge in the forums. If learning is your goal, enter what you have done and when voting is over post it in the forum and ask others to re-edit it for you, along with how they do it, or just ask for what could have made it better. You said yourself you wanted help with processing so you could get a higher score. I was basing my responses on that.
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04/24/2006 02:42:51 PM · #55 |
Some folks just really need to lighten up a little. Asking advice is fine granted the other person is not expected to vote nor comment during the voting process. Votes should be made solely on the basis of merit and not because "they are my friends so I'll vote high". I think that's BS if people ask for advice and expect that the "advisor" will give them a good score.
Plus the fact that 1 vote in a field of over 200+ votes won't matter as much. If someone needs to learn, then so be it. I'm just a little annoyed sometimes that some folks really think that their images are "their own". I have asked for advice and there's no denying that but I've always prefaced the fact that it should affect their vote by any means. Collaboration is different than seeking advice. If someone wants to improve by asking "seasoned" photographers, why not extend the help?
I am not entering CCIII nor am I sure I'll enter Negative Image. So if anyone wants to ask me, feel free to do so. Just know that I probably won't vote on it nor would I give you an advice that would make your image score improve. My advice i always about technicals and appeal. If an image doesn't have that, I'm the first one to say it.
Just my two cents.
Rikki
Message edited by author 2006-04-24 14:43:24. |
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04/24/2006 02:49:15 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Krisby, the purpose of this site is to learn. I just feel that challenge entries should be the sole work of the photographer and that learning should be done during the challenge via comments, or after the challenge in the forums. If learning is your goal, enter what you have done and when voting is over post it in the forum and ask others to re-edit it for you, along with how they do it, or just ask for what could have made it better. You said yourself you wanted help with processing so you could get a higher score. I was basing my responses on that. |
Problem there is that low 4 to low 5 scores don't get comments or enough to inform.
After the fact of the Challenge it can be helpful to post a shot but by then it's too late for any advice to be meaningful for some. We all learn differently and that should be appreciated.
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04/24/2006 03:29:11 PM · #57 |
I don't want to make this matter worse but just a question...
At the end of the day, would you feel better because your photo had "high" votes or because you helped someone new learn something?
The answer, I guess, lies with where your personal priorities are. Since this topic really has to do with personal priorities, beliefs and convictions, why fight about it? |
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04/24/2006 04:12:23 PM · #58 |
I've been following this thread and keeping my mouth shut, with great difficulty, but I have to say that the general tone of those on the naysayers side is profoundly depressing to me. When the community's sense of sharing and teaching takes a back seat to a rigid interpretation of such a nebulous concept as "collaboration", I think we've gone too far.
I absolutely cannot see any problem with someone showing an image to another, more experienced, person and asking for advice on how to improve it before making the entry. To those who say this somehow compromises the integrity of the challenges, let me just say this:
Let us suppose I have a problem with an image I otherwise like, a specific technical problem. So let's suppose I ask Rikki if he has any ideas on how to deal with the problem, sending him a copy of my file for his perusal. And Rikki, kind soul that he is, makes several very helpful suggestions, and I incorporate them into the image.
OR let's suppose that I do some research on the 'net, and find in Joe Kaminkowsky's website a specific set of instructions that will solve my problem. I incorporate them into the image.
Joe's instructions and Rikki's are identical.
Is there anyone here who seriously is expressing the opinion that it's OK to comb the web for ways to improve but it's NOT OK to ask our fellow community members if they have any advice?
If you think that's NOT OK, how about this?
Knowing full well (hypothetically) that the community thinks I shouldn't divulge my actual challenge entry to anyone for any reason, what I do is take another shot, not the same as my challenge shot, but with the same technical problem embedded in it, and I ask for help with THAT. Is this OK with you people?
Can anyone see how ridiculous this is?
"Collaboration" is when two or more individuals get together to set up and take a shot. "Collaboration" is when one individual takes the shot and another does the post-processing. "Collaboration" has nothing to do with seeking input from individuals on how to improve something. That's called "learning" and it is what we are all about.
Or so I thought.
I can definitely accept that it should not be allowed that we post our challenge shots up before entering them, for general critique, because this represents a broad-scaled annihilation of anonymity, but I think the idea that you can't share them at ALL is ridiculous and runs counter to the spirit of this wonderful place.
R.
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04/24/2006 04:32:45 PM · #59 |
I am with you Bear. But I can't say much look at Number 1 in my profile.
;-)
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04/25/2006 12:17:32 AM · #60 |
Very well put, Bear. The reason I stuck around here was so I could learn...no mean feat for someone as hard headed as myself! One of the principle reasons I have not entered all that many challenges is not so much a concern for my average score, but an unwillingness to display a photograph, particularly to enter it into an environment where it is judged, unless it is the very best that I can make it. If I can't get out of it what I thought was there, I'll sit out the challenge.
Oh, and good job, coolhar, way to encourage younger photographers to stay with us and learn...
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04/25/2006 12:36:16 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by dpdave:
... Oh, and good job, coolhar, way to encourage younger photographers to stay with us and learn... |
I believe he was encouraging the young lady to learn, but there are many ways to accomplish that. The big negative was soliciting help via a public forum posting on garnering a higher score on a direct challenge entry.
Learning can take form in the place of evaluating challenge results, considering comments rec'd during the challenge, and asking for additional feedback when the challenge is over via a forum posting.
I'm sure that you, being an experienced kind of guy, already know that. Sorry if it's redundant. ;^) |
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04/25/2006 07:33:01 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by liltritter:
would you feel better because your photo had "high" votes or because you helped someone new learn something? |
I'm not entering any challenges so how does this apply to me helping???
Bear as always you have made some great points and thanks for stepping in.
Krisby, if you still want some help/advice them my offer stands but keep in mind (or look at some of my comments made) that I am no professional (and apparently can't spell or type today) but will offer up anything I can. |
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04/25/2006 08:51:06 AM · #63 |
First of all, amen Robert :-)
I guess maybe it depends on the 'advice' given. If say the advisor looks and says ok, go into selective color and in the red channel, give a +10 boost in magenta, and -4 yellow, and then etc, and go into levels and slide your mid arrow 12 to the right, etc, then, yeah, the advisor really is 'doing the work'.
But...if you look at the shot and say like, I think your colors need some work, try adjusting in selective color, and/or hue/sat, and the photo looks a little flat, maybe some levels or curves adj can improve the tonal range. Or, the composition just isn't very dynamic, maybe you should try a different crop, keeping compositional rules in mind. etc. then the person still has to do the work, it is still their finised product, they just have some guidance to go on. And if their score is a little higher? Then that might just be a great catalyst or motivator. |
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04/25/2006 09:07:56 AM · #64 |
I find most comments I've recieved during the Challenges to be more on the positive side and in that case less helpful than the negative ones. So you have to sift through things on occasion to get the truth about your image.
"Shoulda, woulda, coulda", after the fact comments are ok but too late coming, to see what would have happened if you'd made those changes in advance. As they say, "the proof is in the pudding" (did I get that one wrong Bear?)and when people see scores to back up the advice things really tend to sink in.
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