landscapes that have been neat imaged

04/15/2006 01:00:31 PM · #26

Originally posted by ellamay:

thanks everyone, while I was sleeping ya all came up with some great exampes.
I am trying to get a more exagerated effect similar to geewhy's examples. I have a forest shot that I think it will work nicely on.
I am curious what the 'salt and pepper' filter is, I do not seem to have that one : )
thanks again

Salt and pepper is one of the filters in Paint Shop Pro. I don't know if it is in other softwares.

It falls under noise reduction, and you have to apply it with great care, as it murder on detail. It removes specks (like litte white specks you get from oversharpening), but it also makes things look rather flat.

04/15/2006 01:13:05 PM · #27

Originally posted by ursula:

I usually use it on a separate layer (except if basic editing), then erase the portions that I don't want affected. I usually run it at low levels, so that when you flip back and forth between the two you don't see much change.

-----------

You could do the same with NI, using 2 separate identical images, NeatImaging one, pasting back into the original as a layer, deleting selected portions. I haven't checked if this is legal for DPC though.

I sort of overdid it on this one.

Obviously you were using noise reduction as an effects filter in the last image.

Are layer masks supported in PSP? If so, then it would be easier to add a layer mask to the noise reduced layer and mask out the undesired noise reduction. That is also less destructive and easier to change later on.

04/15/2006 01:21:17 PM · #28

Layer masks. Now you'll find out how little I know. What are they?

Added: Just checked in PSP9 -

"About Masks
A mask layer covers parts of another layer completely or with varying levels of opacity. Use masks to fade between layers or to create special effects with precision. For example, mask all details around the main subject in a photograph, or use a mask to create a Web page navigation bar that fades away.

You can create a new mask layer that you can paint on, use the mask layer to hide or show underlying layers, or create a mask layer from an image, a selection, or the luminance of an image. In addition, use one of the sample masks (stored in the Masks folder of the Paint Shop Pro program folder) and apply it as is, or customize it.

Mask layers function similar to other types of layers. Turn the visibility of the mask layer on or off, change the overall opacity of the mask layer, or link the mask layer to other layers. For more information, see Editing Layer Properties.

Mask layers are automatically saved with the image in the .PspImage format. You can also save a mask to an alpha channel or as a separate image file on a disk. For more information, see Saving Masks.

So I guess they are. I have never used them (what's the little smiley for embarrassed?)

Guess what the next thing I'm learning is? :)))))

Message edited by author 2006-04-15 13:23:29.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/15/2006 01:40:50 PM · #29

Originally posted by ursula:

Layer masks. Now you'll find out how little I know.

...

Guess what the next thing I'm learning is? :)))))

Yup... ya got layer masks all right.

I'll tell you this right now... you'll love them!

There are two keys to understanding layer masks:
1-What you do in a layer mask affects only the opacity of that layer, no other layers.
2-You paint with black to reduce opacity and you paint with white to increase opacity. It is as simple as that. The default for a layer mask when created is all white, meaning everything in the layer shows up at 100%.

Major layer mask advantages:
1-They are non-destructive
2-You can paint the mask with brushes at reduced opacities to vary the amount of masking in different areas of the layer allowing the underlying layer to show through.

The only trick is to be sure that you have the layer mask highlighted before you paint with black or white, otherwise you will be painting over the data and not the mask.

Soon you'll wonder why you ever lived without them! :)

Rikki

Canon EOS-20D

04/15/2006 01:43:27 PM · #30

i agree ;) layer masks rock ;)

04/15/2006 01:59:13 PM · #31

Originally posted by stdavidson:

...........

Soon you'll wonder why you ever lived without them! :)

Thank you!

04/15/2006 02:06:22 PM · #32

Originally posted by ursula:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Soon you'll wonder why you ever lived without them! :)

Thank you!

Hang out with me and you just might pick up a trick or two.

I'm not just another pretty face! ;)

04/15/2006 02:23:58 PM · #33

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by ursula:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Soon you'll wonder why you ever lived without them! :)

Thank you!

Hang out with me and you just might pick up a trick or two.

I'm not just another pretty face! ;)

Hey, I'll be in your area in 2 weeks :)

Fujifilm XC 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OIS

04/15/2006 03:58:27 PM · #34

Originally posted by stdavidson:

What is interesting about Geewhy's approach is that he uses NI at noise reduction levels LESS than the default settings. In other words there is very little noise reduction being applied at all and should not even have any noticeable effects assuming that all the other NI settings are at their defaults.

If NI is being used as an effects filter then there must be more to the story. I like the image effects above but do not understand how NI could have played any role at all. There must be other setting variations that make the difference.

With the trial version of NI..I find that the default setting for the noise reduction filter (100%)can give a very unnatural look at times but lowering to around 50% still shows a perceptible amount of noise reduction and softening to make a difference...if I can find the original for "Autumnal Hues" I can demonstrate just how much.
I have another version of this pic in my portfolio called "Autumnal Hues full filter" which demonstrates how much softer the pic gets with the 100% default NI setting.
The only other adjustments I make outwith an occasional dabble with "salt& pepper" are to contrast (levels)& saturation & minimal use of dodge and burn.

buzzrock

Fujifilm X-M1

04/15/2006 04:24:23 PM · #35

Not sure if this is a typical landscape- but I applies some NI to it..

ellamay

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

04/15/2006 04:49:36 PM · #36

Here is the picture that I have been trying to NI, I am happy with the background section on the left, but wonder why the front foreground is not softening?
Open to critiques/ comments

04/15/2006 04:51:48 PM · #37

Originally posted by geewhy:

Guess I'm confused over what you mean by reduction filter 100%.

Here are NI's default settings:

Noise Levels:
High - 0%
Mid - 0%
Low - 0%
White - 0%
Red - 25%
Blue - 25%

Noise Reduction:
High - 100%
Mid - 100%
Low - 100%
White - 60%
Red - 100%
Blue - 100%

I assumed the value you were refering to and the one that makes the biggest difference when using NI is the 60% value for White under "Noise Reduction". Is that true?

Something else that also occured to me is how you generate the NI profile that you are using those settings with. There are two ways. One is to select a profile specific for your camera. The other way is to generate a profile from a selection off the individual image.

If you use the second method the effect of NI will be exaggerated if you don't select a uniform region of the image. That could work more like an effects filter. Is this the way you use NI?

Message edited by author 2006-04-15 16:52:40.

04/15/2006 05:33:49 PM · #38

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by geewhy:
With the trial version of NI..I find that the default setting for the noise reduction filter (100%)can give a very unnatural look at times but lowering to around 50% still shows a perceptible amount of noise reduction and softening to make a difference...

Guess I'm confused over what you mean by reduction filter 100%.

Here are NI's default settings:

Noise Levels:
High - 0%
Mid - 0%
Low - 0%
White - 0%
Red - 25%
Blue - 25%

Noise Reduction:
High - 100%
Mid - 100%
Low - 100%
White - 60%
Red - 100%
Blue - 100%

I assumed the value you were refering to and the one that makes the biggest difference when using NI is the 60% value for White under "Noise Reduction". Is that true?

Something else that also occured to me is how you generate the NI profile that you are using those settings with. There are two ways. One is to select a profile specific for your camera. The other way is to generate a profile from a selection off the individual image.

If you use the second method the effect of NI will be exaggerated if you don't select a uniform region of the image. That could work more like an effects filter. Is this the way you use NI?

What I would give for a day`s post processing tuition from you Steve...you certainly know your stuff.
I am at the opposite end of the spectrum from you in that respect with minimal post processing skills.
However, back to the point in question...In my trial version of NI the settings in the "Noise reduction amounts" panel (which is the only one I make any adjustments to)are similar to the details you outlined above. The slight differences are that I have GREEN, red and blue not WHITE, and the default for each of these is 60%
The high, mid, low settings are the only ones I alter as described previously to around 50 to 60%.

I use the second method for generating the profile and usually select sky if available which has little overall effect to the rest of the image as you state.However, in "Autumnal Hues" I selected the area with the fallen leaves which gave a more exaggerated effect to the whole image..hence the reason that I reduce the effect using the sliders.
As I stated earlier...it`s all very basic, but then it would have to be as my processing skills are also very basic.

Hope this has made some sort of sense.

04/15/2006 07:23:20 PM · #39

Originally posted by geewhy:

What I would give for a day`s post processing tuition from you Steve...you certainly know your stuff.

Let me tell you this... you just taught me something! :)

When you said "green" I was thinking there is no such setting as "green". So I decided to check their web site and, sure enough, they have a new version. LOL!

I've become dependant on software vendors informing me online or via email that new versions of their software are available, but the NI folks don't do that. Being a registered user I'm gonna go out and get the new one. I may have to retract everything I said now. LOL! LOL! LOL!

Thanks!

Panasonic DMW-LTZ10 1.5x Teleconverter

04/15/2006 07:38:18 PM · #40

Originally posted by stdavidson:

I may have to retract everything I said now.
Thanks!

I don`t think so Steve, everything you said made perfect sense to me..I just couldn`t find the "WHITE" setting you were quoting.

KiwiShotz

Panasonic DMC-FZ20

04/15/2006 07:46:00 PM · #41

If you guys are using defaults then I'm missing something. I exclusively use the profiles rather than auto-profile - is that not the best way?

Another question I have is ... do you use the sharpening in NI? I do a very small amout because I'm afraid that it will cause artifacts when I sharpen after reduction to 640x

Brett

Tajhad

Canon EOS R

Canon RF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS USM

04/15/2006 07:54:25 PM · #42

I must admit I have never used Noise Reduction. I thought it was more needed on high ISO shots. It seems that you guys use it on all shots. Is this so ? Also does PS CS2 do the same thing or do you need a program like this Neat Image ? Excuse my ignorance but I didn't realise all this about noise filters.

04/15/2006 08:05:15 PM · #43

Originally posted by KiwiPix:

Brett,I`m quite reluctant to get into the finer detail of this subject as I don`t know enough about it..as I said in an earlier post,I`m only doing the basics....perhaps Steve(stdavidson)could be of more help with your query.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

04/15/2006 08:13:43 PM · #44

Originally posted by Tajhad:

I use neat image to reduce noise in high ISO shots but also to obtain a soft focus effect (sometimes combined with other filters such as salt& pepper in Paintshop pro8) which can give a kind of etherial feel to your image.
Not sure if Photoshop CS2 can do the same..I have the demo version of Neat Image and find it works OK for my needs on DPC but wouldn`t recommend using the demo version for full size images.

BobsterLobster

Fujifilm FinePix S3 Pro

04/15/2006 08:46:19 PM · #45

Heavily NeatImaged... I hadn't come across this technique before to smooth out foliage textures, it became quite popular here:

ellamay

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

04/15/2006 08:49:24 PM · #46

thats the shot I was looking for when I started this thread, thnks!!!
nice shot : )

04/15/2006 09:02:15 PM · #47

Originally posted by KiwiPix:

If you guys are using defaults then I'm missing something. I exclusively use the profiles rather than auto-profile - is that not the best way?

Yes, it is the best way and will give you the best results when you are using if for its intended purpose, noise reduction. ;)

Originally posted by KiwiPix:

Another question I have is ... do you use the sharpening in NI? I do a very small amout because I'm afraid that it will cause artifacts when I sharpen after reduction to 640x

Good question. I've experimented with that in the past but don't use it. I do noise reduction early in my workflow but do not do my main sharpening until after I'm done post processing. I sharpen when producing an output file from the main post processed file. So I do not apply do not sharpen with NeatImage. NI is designed for noise reduction and I'm reluctant to use it for something that it was not originally designed for.

04/15/2006 09:28:10 PM · #48

Originally posted by geewhy:

Originally posted by stdavidson:
I may have to retract everything I said now.
Thanks!

I don`t think so Steve, everything you said made perfect sense to me..I just couldn`t find the "WHITE" setting you were quoting.

Ah, hah! I think I might understand a bit more about the issue...

I downloaded and installed the new version (5.3) of NI and the default settings values are slightly different but it works basically the same.

The standalone version has several tabs with settings on them: 1-Input Image, 2-Device Noise Profile, 3-Noise Filter settings and 4-Output Image.

The "Device Noise Profile" tab is the one with red, green and blue settings. There are a bunch of sliders on each colored tab. That is what I think you are talking about. I never touch them. I think they are for various luminosity values that tell NI input values for building an NI profile. They are sometimes set by a specific camera profile and normally left as zero when building a custom profile for an image. But you, as a user, can set them any way you want. Perhaps I should experiment with them some time. :)

The settings I outlined above are on the "Noise Filter Settings" tab. Those are the ones that do the actual noise reduction on the image based on the profile built in the "Device Noise Profile" tab.

04/15/2006 09:32:39 PM · #49

Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

Heavily NeatImaged... I hadn't come across this technique before to smooth out foliage textures, it became quite popular here:

Sooooooo... Ok, Bob, what NI settings are used to achieve this effect? I'd like to try that out myself. :)