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04/14/2006 07:44:15 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by MrXpress:
I guess I'll have to disagree with everyone and say that the risk you take of sheltering a teenager from birth and then suddenly releasing them into the real world once they become an adult is substantially greater than that of having a teenager be the victim of a sexual predator. |
you really should re-read the previous posts. you are taking these comments to say 'completely insulate', which is not what is being suggested at all. it's simply a matter of education and guidance. it has nothing to do with 'shadowing every move'. and it has more to do with maturity than age--although maturity is typically something that develops with age.
maybe you should bookmark this and come back once you have a 12 yr old daughter ;-) |
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04/14/2006 07:56:08 AM · #27 |
Everything in this thread seems to concern 12-ish yr. old girls, which is not exactly what I think of when I hear "girl in high school". Anything I've said in this thread is not referring to anyone that young, as I don't see many 12 yr. olds writing e-mails to be photography assistants. I also never said "completely insulate", it's just that everyone sees a 16 yr. old girl as completely naive and incapable of making a decision other than ones that will send her to certain doom. Need I mention the age at which most girls are the MOST promiscuous and 'free'? Let's just say I'd have far more worries about a daughter who was 20 and in college rather than 16 and in high school. Why is that so? Don't you think it might have something to do with the fact that they were exposed to little and sheltered so much in high school that they can't handle it when they go to college and are free?
Clearly we are (and I suspect I am from most of the other posters in this thread as well) in different generations, so we could debate this endlessly and really come to no appreciable resolution other than "agree to disagree." This isn't a bad thing, but it can definitely lead to either of us not being able to understand the other's point of view.
Message edited by author 2006-04-14 07:59:57. |
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04/14/2006 08:14:43 AM · #28 |
| it's not a matter of being from different generations...i have already been up and down the road you're on. it's not so much a disagreement as a matter of how you interpret what you read and how you express yourself. you are quite right in a lot of your statements, but, all the same, the primary points of my original post are quite unarguable (even if i could have made them a little more clearly). i don't think it prudent for anyone to put themselves in vulnerable and exploitable positions. |
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04/14/2006 08:35:36 AM · #29 |
Meh, I think the generational gap has something to do with it as well. Society is a LOT different than it was as recently as 10 years ago, mainly due to the proliferation of the internet and advances in technology. This directly affects who and how people contact, especially for employment. The days of walking into a place of business and asking for an application are winding down; I've had four job interview requests in the past week, and ALL were a result of direct e-mail contact that I initiated.
Sure, it's the parents job to monitor who their children contact on the Internet, but how are you so sure her parents DIDN'T endorse that e-mail? Maybe they even suggested it to her. It's okay to be somewhat wary, but you can't discourage these kids from something before they even get started with it. |
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04/14/2006 09:37:18 AM · #30 |
| You handled it perfectly, Skip and thanks for posting this important topic for discussion. |
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04/14/2006 10:16:49 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by MrXpress:
Meh, I think the generational gap has something to do with it as well. Society is a LOT different than it was as recently as 10 years ago, mainly due to the proliferation of the internet and advances in technology. This directly affects who and how people contact, especially for employment. The days of walking into a place of business and asking for an application are winding down; I've had four job interview requests in the past week, and ALL were a result of direct e-mail contact that I initiated.
Sure, it's the parents job to monitor who their children contact on the Internet, but how are you so sure her parents DIDN'T endorse that e-mail? Maybe they even suggested it to her. It's okay to be somewhat wary, but you can't discourage these kids from something before they even get started with it. |
MrXpress, your reply most certainly reflects the difference in our ages...
i would hope that her parents are aware of her contacting me, and i would hope that they read the reply. for one, that would hopefully give them the appropriate impression of me--someone they could trust their daughter to work for. after all, this isn't like working at mcdonalds where you can walk up to the counter and watch your daughter flip burgers or take orders...
also, while my reply to her might have seemed 'overkill' to you, i wanted to make sure i got her attention. all your examples of naivety, coming of age explorations, etc, are things that every generation must handle in its own time.
this past weekend, here in central virginia, one high school student used a fake id to buy beer to throw a beer bash while his parents were away. when he fell down a flight of stairs, almost all of his friends left him for his parents to find him. when they came home, they took to the emergency room to be treated for alcohol poisoning. he was cleared by the er, and they took him home. he died a few hours later from a massive cerebral hemmorage.
also this past weekend, down in williamsburg, a college student decided to climb out a 4th story dorm room window to sit out on the roof. he slipped on the dew-covered slate and fell to his death.
neither of these deaths involved the internet, strangers, pedophiles, or anything else like that. these deaths are the result of youthful indescretions. these deaths might have been prevented had someone SHOUTED LOUDLY at these kids HEY! THINK BEFORE YOU ACT!!! and gotten their attention.
so, maybe i am overkill, but if i can get one kid to think about what they're doing before they do something that could get them killed, i'll be happy. |
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04/14/2006 10:24:33 AM · #32 |
Very well handled, Skip. I hope that she will read it with all the maturity that she seemed to be approaching you with in the first place. And since you were very encouraging in what you wrote at the same time you advised her to be cautious, I think it will be well-received.
Well done!
Liz |
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04/14/2006 11:07:40 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
The chatlogs for those busts are posted on pervertedjustice.com.
They have a strict rule not to "bait" the predators and not to discuss anything sexual until the predator brings it up. All you have to do is setup a Yahoo profile stating that you are a teenager. Within minutes you will be bombarded with grown men asking you if you have a web cam and trying to meet up. There is absolutely no need for entrapment in the sick world of child sexual predators. |
If there's no need for entrapment, then why does that organisation exist?
A problem with sting operations like 'pervertedjustice' is that while they might uncover suspected 'predators' they also make it more difficult to bring a successful prosecution, because of the grey area of entrapment.
Going online as a 14yo girl calling yourself 'CuteAshley4u1990' and posting photographs of yourself (as one of the logs on that site described).... if that's not walking the thin line of entrapment I don't know what is! |
So, you are saying that using a name like "CuteAshley4u1990" and posting pictures of yourself" is justification for a grown man to approach a minor for sex?
The site gives a thorough description of "Entrapment" (which only applies to law enforcement officials, BTW). If you research that, you will understand how ludicrous your assertion is.
If you read the chat logs and Conviction reports, you will see that the person posing as a minor NEVER makes first contact, NEVER brings up anything sexual, REPEATEDLY reminds the adult that they are underage and goes through a confirmation process to prove that it is actually an adult trying to have sex with a minor.
Law enforcement officials DO NOT approach minors to discuss sex in the course of their undercover investigations.
To answer your question; the organization exists to help protect children from the sick scumbags who want to steal their innocence, and possibly their lives. Your post perfectly illustrates the blind eye that society has chosen to turn towards this problem.
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04/14/2006 11:14:22 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
The chatlogs for those busts are posted on pervertedjustice.com.
They have a strict rule not to "bait" the predators and not to discuss anything sexual until the predator brings it up. All you have to do is setup a Yahoo profile stating that you are a teenager. Within minutes you will be bombarded with grown men asking you if you have a web cam and trying to meet up. There is absolutely no need for entrapment in the sick world of child sexual predators. |
If there's no need for entrapment, then why does that organisation exist?
A problem with sting operations like 'pervertedjustice' is that while they might uncover suspected 'predators' they also make it more difficult to bring a successful prosecution, because of the grey area of entrapment.
Going online as a 14yo girl calling yourself 'CuteAshley4u1990' and posting photographs of yourself (as one of the logs on that site described).... if that's not walking the thin line of entrapment I don't know what is! |
So, you are saying that using a name like "CuteAshley4u1990" and posting pictures of yourself" is justification for a grown man to approach a minor for sex?
The site gives a thorough description of "Entrapment" (which only applies to law enforcement officials, BTW). If you research that, you will understand how ludicrous your assertion is.
If you read the chat logs and Conviction reports, you will see that the person posing as a minor NEVER makes first contact, NEVER brings up anything sexual, REPEATEDLY reminds the adult that they are underage and goes through a confirmation process to prove that it is actually an adult trying to have sex with a minor.
Law enforcement officials DO NOT approach minors to discuss sex in the course of their undercover investigations.
To answer your question; the organization exists to help protect children from the sick scumbags who want to steal their innocence, and possibly their lives. Your post perfectly illustrates the blind eye that society has chosen to turn towards this problem. |
WHERE DID YOU READ THE CHAT LOGS< I WOULD LIKE TO READ THAT
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04/14/2006 11:21:06 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Originally posted by jhonan:
If there's no need for entrapment, then why does that organisation exist?
A problem with sting operations like 'pervertedjustice' is that while they might uncover suspected 'predators' they also make it more difficult to bring a successful prosecution, because of the grey area of entrapment.
Going online as a 14yo girl calling yourself 'CuteAshley4u1990' and posting photographs of yourself (as one of the logs on that site described).... if that's not walking the thin line of entrapment I don't know what is! |
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Originally posted by greatandsmall:
So, you are saying that using a name like "CuteAshley4u1990" and posting pictures of yourself" is justification for a grown man to approach a minor for sex? |
No - Where did I say that?
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
The site gives a thorough description of "Entrapment" (which only applies to law enforcement officials, BTW). If you research that, you will understand how ludicrous your assertion is. |
My assertion is that the 'predators' could be more difficult to prosecute, as they now have 'entrapment' as a defence. I wouldn't consider that assertion ludicrous. Logical perhaps.
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
To answer your question; the organization exists to help protect children from the sick scumbags who want to steal their innocence, and possibly their lives. Your post perfectly illustrates the blind eye that society has chosen to turn towards this problem. |
Then my original point remains. This is some sort of voluntary organisation who have taken it into their own hands to use methods which are dangerously close to 'entrapment' in order to track down suspected predators. I see these methods as potentially damaging to any ensuing court case.
Originally posted by greatandsmall:
Your post perfectly illustrates the blind eye that society has chosen to turn towards this problem. |
I disagree. My post perfectly illustrates how vigilante organisations could potentially disrupt the correct course of law.
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04/14/2006 11:27:43 AM · #36 |
Whoah... this one seems to have exploded since last night. FWIW skip, I think you did the right thing. As a new father, I shudder to think what the world will have in store for my son as he reaches adolescence. It's nice to see that some people are diligent enough to watch out for the generation of kids who will one day be taking care of us.
Kudos! |
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04/14/2006 11:30:42 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by TroyMosley:
WHERE DID YOU READ THE CHAT LOGS< I WOULD LIKE TO READ THAT |
pervertedjustice.com
Chat logs, FAQs, Conviction Reports, Pornographic images that the perverts sent to "children", etc. It's all on the site.
jhonan: I'm not going to argue with you. Everything you have brought up is thoroughly covered on the site. If you were interested in truly understanding what they do; we wouldn't be having this discussion. |
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04/14/2006 11:42:17 AM · #38 |
| Regarding citizen vigilantism, there are two sides to every story. Here's the flip side. |
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04/14/2006 11:53:48 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Regarding citizen vigilantism, there are two sides to every story. Here's the flip side. |
Thanks for sharing that. It's quite interesting.
That site has a list of links to other vigilante groups. Haven't had time to check them out; but I will.
Link
Message edited by author 2006-04-14 12:00:02. |
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04/14/2006 11:55:13 AM · #40 |
Damn... I forgot how weird things were in America... I'm lucky to be here. I've met a number of photographers through the internet and am now close friends with them (although they are twice my age let's say they had a hard time accepting me more than I did them). But then again, everyone knows each other one way or another in Turkey.
You did a good thing Skip, nice subtle mail, even if she was really a high school student (I don't know the catholic thing seems like a strech, like she's trying to proove she's innocent?) you wouldn't have hurt her feelings at least.
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04/14/2006 12:05:33 PM · #41 |
I think you need to cua in this situtation and I think Skip handeled it very well. In business, perception counts more than reality and if there were issues then business would suffer regardless of the outcome legally - yeah innocent until proven and all that but word of mount and referrals don't really work like that.
Originally posted by skiprow:
...he was cleared by the er, and they took him home. he died a few hours later from a massive cerebral hemmorage.... |
I think that says more about the quality of our hospitals then society :-/ but that is a side rant :-) |
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04/14/2006 01:05:55 PM · #42 |
| Of course we all like to encourage our youth in any meaningful pursuit. Skip has the correct response with a good balance between caution and encouragement. Aside from the obvious, one must always consider if employing a teenager means being a mentor or being a babysitter! |
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04/14/2006 01:19:18 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Ennil:
You did a good thing Skip, nice subtle mail, even if she was really a high school student (I don't know the catholic thing seems like a strech, like she's trying to proove she's innocent?) you wouldn't have hurt her feelings at least. |
Skip said he changed the names etc in the transcript he posted. That's not really the name of her school.
R.
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04/14/2006 01:37:38 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Ennil:
You did a good thing Skip, nice subtle mail, even if she was really a high school student (I don't know the catholic thing seems like a strech, like she's trying to proove she's innocent?) you wouldn't have hurt her feelings at least. |
Skip said he changed the names etc in the transcript he posted. That's not really the name of her school.
R. |
Then Skip's up to something fishy... :P Now Skip what's the deal with this catholic school thing?
(Just trying to save face :P )
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