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04/12/2006 10:23:04 PM · #51 |
| It was a 1.05/litre today when I filled up. Glad I finally bought one these little guys. |
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04/12/2006 10:37:55 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by MsMia:
It was a 1.05/litre today when I filled up. Glad I finally bought one these little guys. |
$2.80+ per gallon today...glad I just bought one of these guys.
:(
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04/12/2006 11:06:20 PM · #53 |
The best prices in Sydney Australia at the moment are about US$3.60 per gallon (unleaded, 91 octane) - most places are higher than that.
Yeah, I've got to agree with the other posters who suggested the US posters should stop whinging (and stop spending so much on gas-guzzlings SUVs you don't need). Your petrol is among the cheapest in the world. Ours is relatively cheap by world standards but is still a lot more than yours. |
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04/12/2006 11:09:19 PM · #54 |
| My next fill up I'll be paying a bit above $3.00 a gal for Premium! *sigh* Guess I'll just be driving back and forth to work daily (8 miles) and parking it for the rest of the time. Bummer cuz the weather is beautiful and I have a convertible!! |
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04/13/2006 12:06:46 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
...We got to the moon... |
That's a whole other debate ;) |
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04/13/2006 12:08:17 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
...We got to the moon... |
That's a whole other debate ;) |
Oh boy...let's not even go there... ;)
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04/13/2006 12:15:22 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by deapee:
This whole thing (the gas prices being OUTRAGEOUS) has NOTHING to do with teaching Americans a lesson and hoping they don't drive as much...
It has EVERYTHING to do with greed. Last year, Wal-Mart was the number one money-making company...guess who it is now -- Exxon. They're making a KILLING from it, and the government is making more and more tax on it so they won't do anything.
The thing is that they just realized that they can INSANELY raise the price of gasoline (something that we've all become dependent on) to the point that they (the big oil companies and the government) are making huge amounts of money at all of our expense.
Something needs to be done. It's hurting smaller companies, while bigger companies are THRIVING from this whole thing. Auto parts delivering businesses, pizza delivery folks, public transportation businesses, it's driving the prices up across the entire map -- postal prices are going up, parts costs are going up, everything that is delivered by a truck (90% of everything we consume) are all going up...and it's all because Exxon is greedy. Wal-Mart isn't going to lose money from the higher costs of operating their trucks -- they will simply raise the price of a few things by a penny -- and their cost is easily consumed. But the poor guy that delivers pizza can't come up with the difference....this is DEVISTATING to the economy...and I think that middle-class Americans (and possibly the rest of the world) is in for some BAD, BAD times, in the very near future. |
I don't want to offend you. Assume I am saying the following in a calm reasoned voice.
The content of your post is naive. Nobody ranted or raved when the Exxons of the world were investing to find, drill for, and refine oil at their own expense. No one in a free market economy will begrudge them the chance to make a reasonable profit or make a return on the risk they accepted. Few understand the investment that will be required to find ever increasing supplies of oil ... all of which exploration, finding, drilling and such has to be paid for.
In the end this is not conspiracy theory 101. It is not greed. It is simple supply, demand, and price elasticity. Oh, and there is some unbridled emotion and unreasoned rhetoric mixed in, too, which isn't actually helping.
You're too young to remember going through this in the 70s. We've been there before and the world didn't end. We'll be there again and the world won't end.
This is a very complicated problem. In the US the price rise has more to do with limited refining capacity than the price of oil. And it has more to do with fear of another severe hurricane season disrupting the energy infrastructure than it does with the underlying economic realities.
That being said, we DO need to focus much more on sustainable energy sources. No doubt about it. The situation will grow increasingly worse through the middle of the century. If unchecked, it will spawn a new world war. But in the mean time, please take the time to educate yourself on the realities we face.
Not ranting. Not trying to wind you up or bring you down. Just trying to offer a point of view. |
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04/13/2006 12:32:34 AM · #58 |
I heard this morning that Condi Rice, Secratary of State was a former member of the board of Chevron, I though one member of the cabinet wasn't tied to the petroleum industry. There are more powerfull people in this administration from big oil than in any previous administration. We elected them twice and big oil is doing very well by all of this, thank you. Was it two years ago that the big federal tax break went through to allow oil companies enough free money to be able to explore some options that would help them help us?
Get used to these prices, we are running out of oil and the west is not the only spot where the economy is fired by oil. More people chasing diminishing recources makes for high prices, Shame all the profits are going to a narrow sector of the economy and not funding some hope to find a substitute for oil.
Prices are up 15 cents this week and I expect to see $3.50 this summer |
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04/13/2006 12:34:25 AM · #59 |
First let me start out by sayin' that I think of my self as a die hard conservative. That being said, I have a very hard time listening to the Rush's and the Hannity's etc. saying that they have a right to own and drive their SUV's at the expense of everybody else. If you live in a large city, how many times have you looked around at rush hour. How many vehicles do you see on the road that have the capacity for 6-8 passenger that are holding... one driver and nobody else! You wanna see the price of gas come down? Get the demand for gas to come down. How do you get the demand for gas to come down? How about some hardcore incentives for people to fill up their cars with passengers. You can't tell me that in an office building with 60 80 or even a 100 stories worth of office space that their aren't people that live near enough to each other to get together in a car pool. Give them a reason to. And I don't mean let them drive in the carpool lane... Give them a REAL reason to... This could be done on a local, state and federal level. There could be discounted or free parking (how much does it cost to park your car in Manhatten?) It could be a tax incentive on all three levels of Government. It could be free or discounted rates on toll roads. It could be an increase on tolls for people that drive Miatta's... Give them a reason!
Yes the alternative forms of energy sound good. But to make a dent in the oil industry you would have to turn 99% of the country into corn farms to make ethenol work. You would have to have HUGE tanks to make hydrogen work. Battery technology is getting good but is still no where near making a practical electric car. We have to somehow get the demand down.... |
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04/13/2006 12:36:53 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by Digital Quixote:
This is a very complicated problem. In the US the price rise has more to do with limited refining capacity than the price of oil. And it has more to do with fear of another severe hurricane season disrupting the energy infrastructure than it does with the underlying economic realities. |
Actually the reason quoted for the recent rises in gas prices have to do with the growing conflict between the reasonable world and the Iranians over their nuclear program...
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 00:37:08. |
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04/13/2006 12:42:59 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by Digital Quixote:
This is a very complicated problem. In the US the price rise has more to do with limited refining capacity than the price of oil. And it has more to do with fear of another severe hurricane season disrupting the energy infrastructure than it does with the underlying economic realities. |
Actually the reason quoted for the recent rises in gas prices have to do with the growing conflict between the reasonable world and the Iranians over their nuclear program... |
Enter, stage left: unbridled emotion and unreasoned rhetoric. Iran is just sauce for the goose.
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 00:43:37. |
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04/13/2006 12:59:21 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by Digital Quixote:
Enter, stage left: unbridled emotion and unreasoned rhetoric. Iran is just sauce for the goose. |
I would agree with you if we were allowed to tap into our own oil reserves, but thanks to the environmental PACS we aren't allowed to tap into our own oil reserves in Alaska. So take out a major player in the game and the stakes go up... Even the mainstream media is saying that Iran is key in the recent price increases...
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 01:00:25. |
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04/13/2006 01:15:14 AM · #63 |
We buy vehicles that get low gas mileage and have no need for that automobile. It's like an SUV jungle going down the road. Forget about parking and sitting in your car while your wife is shopping. You will have no view since there is an SUV on each side of you and in front. Get use to looking out the rear view mirror, maybe you will have a view there. Oh don't bother letting the windows down for air because they block the air flow as well. And it seems the bigger they are the smaller the number of passengers. Well at least you can check your hair while sitting beside one because it's going to be shinny and clean with an mirror finish because it's never been off road. Oh did I say they slow down the drive thru line a McDonald's because they are to long for the double window. You have to wait a few more minutes because you can't pull up far enough to hand the cashier your CC or cash. And what a nightmare when parking in a parking garage. You can't hardly turn the corner for some big SUV with a set of balls hanging from his trailer hitch. And when you do find a parking place don't look around to know where to find you little car because the SUV's will hide it when you come out of the store. You press your alarm button and hear your horn but can see the lights blink because they are block by an SUV. While walking around trying to find your car at least you and your wife can play a game of how many SUV were on your side. When you find your car you can barley back out because you can see if anything is coming, they are a visual pollutant. But then when it seems I can't take no more I go fill up with gas and beside me is another SUV! But this time I have won. We both paid $2.60 per gallon of gas but I get 30 miles to the gallon and he gets about 15 miles per gallon. So compared to him, it's like I only paid $1.30 per gallon.
OHHHH I feel better.
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04/13/2006 01:43:16 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by Digital Quixote:
Enter, stage left: unbridled emotion and unreasoned rhetoric. Iran is just sauce for the goose. |
I would agree with you if we were allowed to tap into our own oil reserves, but thanks to the environmental PACS we aren't allowed to tap into our own oil reserves in Alaska. So take out a major player in the game and the stakes go up... Even the mainstream media is saying that Iran is key in the recent price increases... |
Iran is just geo-political intramurals ... solve the problem. |
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04/13/2006 01:57:45 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by bod:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
... one must consider a few factors about Europe. First, they have wonderful mass transit systems ... |
Oh my. That's the first time I've heard our public transport called wonderful in, erm ... ever!
Thanks for the laugh : ) |
Mass transit is wonderful here...modern too! ;)
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04/13/2006 05:57:20 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
It's not so much the price of gas itself, it's that we feel we're being ripped off. Gas prices here today are $2.75 for the cheap stuff. 3 weeks ago it was $2.27. That's 50c, or almost a 20% hike in 3 weeks - Why? Cause the big oil companies know we'll pay it. |
With respect, you live in a country built on the principles of capitalism and market forces. It's simple economics; enough people are obviously willing to pay those prices so the companies are going to charge them.
Companies are not public services. If you want to nationalise the oil industry feel free, but it's not exactly compatible with "the American Way". |
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04/13/2006 12:00:09 PM · #67 |
Personally I wish gas prices were $10 a gallon. It would force consumers to make wise decisions on vehicle types (no SUVs), promote local agriculture, foster the adoption of renewable fuels (wind & solar), & end the corporate welfare of poor oil companies.
GM̢۪s EV-1 and the subsequent destroying of the program after winning against California̢۪s Zero Emission Mandate prove the EV technology is up to the task of replacing internal combustion engines.
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04/13/2006 12:08:29 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by deapee:
and the government is making more and more tax on it so they won't do anything. |
Yup....Deapee hit the hammer with the nail on that one...
Gas = $1.50, 20% = $0.30 tax revenue.
Gas = $3.00, 20% = $0.60 tax revenue.
Gas = $4.00, 20% = $0.80 tax revenue.
Folks, Congress just figured out how to double the tax income on the number one commodity sold in the U.S.
Actually, I saw that one website stated the increased price will generate an additional $720 billion of tax revenue a year.
Just something to think about. |
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04/13/2006 12:25:14 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by deapee:
and the government is making more and more tax on it so they won't do anything. |
Yup....Deapee hit the hammer with the nail on that one...
Gas = $1.50, 20% = $0.30 tax revenue.
Gas = $3.00, 20% = $0.60 tax revenue.
Gas = $4.00, 20% = $0.80 tax revenue.
Folks, Congress just figured out how to double the tax income on the number one commodity sold in the U.S.
Actually, I saw that one website stated the increased price will generate an additional $720 billion of tax revenue a year.
Just something to think about. |
Except the tax structure is not a % but an absolute amount. I'm almost positive the tax stays the same no matter what the price. So if anything, the higher the price, the less tax is collected as Americans actually, *gasp*, conserve.
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 12:28:25. |
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04/13/2006 12:26:27 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by DanSig:
I drive about 40.000 miles per year, I drive a BMW and it uses plenty of gas... |
Then you're rich.
I mean were rich.
I mean, the oil companies are now rich.
I came of age, as it were, at the first energy crisis hit (1974) and I try to be somewhat thrifty for environmental reasons, but now there is a real economic reason to be thrifty.
//www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/17385.shtml
this BMW at 40k miles a year, 2.88 a gallon costs $6405 a year in gasoline.
2 years ago when gas was under $1.50 that cost $3200 - $266 a month difference!
get a Honda Fit and get at least 33mpg, so that 40k a year now runs $3490, a savings of $3000 (250/month), and the say Fit costs $17,000 or so, and you put $500 down over a 6 year loan...the payment is $289 - darn near a free car for what you were spending in gas.
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04/13/2006 12:28:47 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Except the tax structure is not a % but an absolute amount. I'm almost positive the tax stays the same no matter what the price. |
teh federal tax does.
states may have a sales tax based on a %, but i think most are a flat per gallon tax.
//www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gas_taxes_by_state_2002.html
and
//www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/primer_on_gasoline_prices/html/petbro.html
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04/13/2006 12:29:11 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by hyperfocal:
Personally I wish gas prices were $10 a gallon. It would force consumers to make wise decisions on vehicle types (no SUVs), promote local agriculture, foster the adoption of renewable fuels (wind & solar), & end the corporate welfare of poor oil companies.
GM̢۪s EV-1 and the subsequent destroying of the program after winning against California̢۪s Zero Emission Mandate prove the EV technology is up to the task of replacing internal combustion engines. |
Hyperfocal is a good name for you, your very out of focus everywhere else.
Let's address some of your points.
Wind & Solar != (not equal) clean, safe, energy with no downsides.
a) Wind power is incapable of meeting the needs of our energy demands.
b) New studies have shown that wind farms have a detrimental affect on the environment, both in the killing of many birds & animals. And in causing increase in surface temperatures, localized warming and increased dessertification.
c) Solar power is nice, and I do hope to see it become more cost-effective. Particularly such technology as solar shingle systems, etc. There is much more potential here than with wind. But there are still many questions. Second, not all regions are able to utilize such. And the inefficiencies still prevent current needs to be met.
d) GM's "Impact" EV-1 was not actually a zero emission vehicle. In truth, it was a 60%-70% reduced emission vehicle. Sure, the car itself emitted no significant emissions but required electricity to charge it, this required a power facility to generate the electricity. It simply displaced the emissions. Though it's easier to contain a single exhaust pipe than multiple.
e) Second, the EV-1 only provided an option for commuters. It completely failed if you had to do more travelling. Nor was it a good fleet vehicle for companies with 24 hour shifts.
The current push for "fuel cell" vehicles is a much better direction. It's also potentially much cleaner. But the truth of the matter is that we need to move away from a combustion society and move toward a hydrogen society (fuel cells, nuclear, and solar).
f) As for you comments regarding SUVs. It's pretty stupid actually. And shows how most common individuals have no understanding of the matter. Even if all SUVs were outlawed it'd be of minimal affect. Adding only a 2-3 yrs per century or a couple extra decades per millenium of oil use. That's miniscule. In fact, even the touting of 100mpg vehicles is a non-effective strategy. The long range outcome remains the same.
That said SUVs are needed, as are minivans. Now, not everyone needs them. That's true. But many people have reasons for having them. a) They have businesses in which they need a truck or SUV b) they have a large family which requires an SUV or mini-van.
Why are SUVs popular? because at $20,000-$40,000 a vehicle, few families have the option to buy multiple vehicles. An SUV provides the greatest diversity. I can tow my trailer for my business. While at the same time I can carry my family. The issue at hand is not "SUVs are BAD!" as they're quite an effective size machine. The issue is the technology under the hood.
And until enviro-wacko's realize that...they're cause will be forever a sounding brass. The SUV is a necessary vehicle structure for families and business and most especially those who have both. So quit trying to eradicate it. You won't...rather, push for the development of technology that enables such to be low-impact.
For example: in 2008 GM is slated to release a new Chevy Tahoe/Suburban. Rumors abount that this new model is slated for 23-25mpg. This from one of the largest strongest vehicle classes. Why? Because of new technology implementations. GM is combining their new displacement on demand V-8 (which can shut off up to 4 cyclinders and work as a V4) with a variable speed transmission (much more efficient) in conjunction with a hybrid power system.
Now, sure, 25mpg is not as nice as a Prius but it's a big step in the right direction.
- Saj
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04/13/2006 12:29:26 PM · #73 |
Quit whining about SUVs unless you are willing to buy me a Prius.
I have a SUV, and I use it on the weekends to transport myself, my wife, my child, and my two dogs to:
a) The mountains to go camping
b) My in-laws
c) On vacations
d) Towing a boat
e) etc.
5 days a week it gets driven with my wife and son in it. That might look wasteful to those of you who bitch about empty SUVs on the interstate. But until you're willing to buy me a Civic to use the rest of the time, shut up. I'd rather spend my disposable income on gas for the boat or new lenses than an extra car.
Just because mom commutes to work by herself doesn't mean she doesn't pick up her 3 kids from day care on the way.
I admit to having the gut reaction to the price of gas. I get visibly shaken as it creeps upward. To me it's not the cost of the increase, but the VARIANCE of the prices. If the price of gas were to rise steadily over time (like milk, houses, et. al.) then I'd gladly pay whatever it costs. But when prices spike 20% in 4 days (I've seen a .50 cent a gallon increase over the past 10 days where I live) that puts a serious crimp on my budget and financial planning. It's not that I couldn't afford more expensive gas, it's that I can't anticipate more expensive gas.
[/rant]
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04/13/2006 12:34:55 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Wind & Solar != (not equal) clean, safe, energy with no downsides.
b) New studies have shown that wind farms have a detrimental affect on the environment, both in the killing of many birds & animals. And in causing increase in surface temperatures, localized warming and increased dessertification.
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I'm curious what animals other than birds are killed by wind farms? Rabbits able to jump really high?
No energy is without its environmental impact, but it's silly to denigrate a clearly cleaner method by saying it still has impact.
I will agree wind is not going to even come close in matching out energy needs. Conservation and working on our automobiles and our habits in driving them is going to be where the real potential lies.
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 12:36:55. |
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04/13/2006 12:46:40 PM · #75 |
My issue with the whole thing is that the gas mileage of cars is not what it should be.
25 years ago or so the fleet average (CAFE) was implemented and was at 27mpg. It still is at 27mpg (for cars). It is higher for trucks.
The 4 cylinder PT Cruiser is a truck...just to get the avg up for trucks so dodge can sell more V10 Ram monsters and not be 'fined' (it's just passed on in the price of the vehicle).
HP is WAY WAY up. That's the problem - take these efficiency gains and make MPG not HP and we'd be amazed at what we'd see.
I just sold a 79 Lincoln Contenental. A beaslty large car, all metal, thick metal, thick glass. 12mpg, 400 Ci V8 that had 160hp, 4800 pounds.
the current ford Explorer is smaller, weights 4450 pounds, gets 15 mpg and it's 281CI V8 puts out 292HP.
The current Lincoln Town Car does better than an SUV - 17mpg, 4300 pounds and 239 HP.
It's been 27 years and while the safety, comfort and convenience is up, the weight has changed little, gas mileage is barely better, but hey man, we got HP!
You can buy a Mustang or a Vette now with the most HP ever. More than back in the glory days of the Muscle car.
I think the car companies will make economy cars once again - but it amy take 3 years or more.
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