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03/25/2006 11:55:18 AM · #101 |
There were an awful lot of good reasons why the Masters concept was allowed to die. They are still valid. People are always coming up with new ideas for ways we can compete against each other. Making it easier for those who have already acheived success to win even more ribbons has a distasteful level of self congratulatoy hero worship to it.
My biggest objection to most of these new ideas is that they take away from the learning/teaching aspect of the website. Finding more ways to emphasize that part of our communitiy's reason for being would be a better use of the our resources.
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03/25/2006 12:23:06 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Konador:
It's not even called a Masters' Challenge anymore, as the poll states, it's an invitational challenge. It's only the name of the thread which is called Masters', and the thread wasnt created by an admin or SC member. |
Oh, I know that it's not called that. I just didn't understand the hoopla... |
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03/25/2006 12:23:27 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by Konador:
It's not even called a Masters' Challenge anymore, as the poll states, it's an invitational challenge. It's only the name of the thread which is called Masters', and the thread wasnt created by an admin or SC member. |
yeah. whoever created this thread ;P |
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03/25/2006 12:47:57 PM · #104 |
Damn! If the word "Master" is not somewhere in that title, I want no part of it...
...sooooo kidding. |
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03/25/2006 12:52:46 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Damn! If the word "Master" is not somewhere in that title, I want no part of it...
...sooooo kidding. |
I can give you a title that has "master" somewhere in it... |
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03/25/2006 02:15:35 PM · #106 |
I have listened to both sides by a thorough reading of this thread. Both sides of the argument are very well founded. However, there are some points or considerations which trump others.
First: DPC while being an educational site is first and foremost an arena of competition. That is to say learning without a testing has never really caught on. The competitions are then the test and the winners get a cyber ribbon. The fact that there is no renumeration makes the engagement unique.
Now, follows the bitter fruit: In order for many to win the phorographers must gravitate to a style that may be either unfriendly to them or even below them. To answer this one I know many gifted photographers who have managed to score on their own ground. I also know of many who simply want to please the crowd.
Now, it does not matter what your bag is or what your style is. You can rest in the comfort that your art is not appreciated or understood but I repeat as I have elsewhere, if you want to learn you will need to expand your horizon. This does not mean that you have to adopt the style of another but simply be aware that no style can lay claim to being the best, and that many styles while different from yours have merit and the right to exist.
Being a site of competition I love those that have shown a propensity to make a good image compete against each other because the stakes rise at once and this results in more wonderful images. Yes, according to some the very winners are not high up in the ribbon catogory, but somewhere in that top 20. While a lot of these are produced regularly you will find an abundance in such challenges.
If they announced a challenge where only ribbon winners these year could enter I would back it and not have the temerity to balk because I am not eligible. No matter, the place is oriented in competing and this trumps status envy. Competition is just that. If you do not like to compete then your own art will suffer because you will never feel the burning passion to outdo yourself. Top notch artist always compete and first with themselves. How else can one improve?
Message edited by author 2006-03-25 14:22:56. |
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03/25/2006 02:25:37 PM · #107 |
Time and time again, those in favor keep coming back to the same reason for having these challenges -- and it's the same reason they were first created. That is, this sort of challenge concentrates the 'worthwhile' images. But, as has been pointed out many times, any free study will does that -- just don't look past the first couple of pages in the results. The only benefit I'm seeing is that those who don't want to be bothered with viewing what they consider subquality photos don't have to feel bad 'cherry-picking' the thumbs during voting.
This sort of activity does not promote any form of foward looking or advancement of the site -- and instead firmly anchors the site's attention in the past. There is no meaningful value to be gained from it that can not easily be gained while looking forward.
David
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03/25/2006 03:00:50 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by langdon:
I've been wanting to schedule more, but always remember the negativity that was unleashed when we did the first batch. And now with this 2" Exposure challenge, I'm too scared to challenge anything. ;) |
As much as I like the original idea I think it is a little unfair to all paying members to just give a challenge to those that have ribboned. On the same hand I think its a great idea because IF I ever ribbon then I like the idea. All in all I think "more for the members" is needed. As for the negativity for the 2 sec. challenge I think that as unfortunately as it is that not all members cannot enter it falls into the same catagory as this masters challenge. If you can't step up to the challenge because of the requirments (2 sec. exposure/master challenge etc.) then too bad. Fear nothing Langdon. |
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03/25/2006 04:32:25 PM · #109 |
i just want to say that i think this is not completely fair and this happenings on dpc lately with this private competitions and groups and "masters" challenge are not good for the spirit of the community ... why seggregate the averages or below averages with ribbon winners and high averages? i don't understand ... to learn how we "the others" should do it ? c'mon ... let the averages compete with "masters" that is the right way to do it not just to look at they work. i just hope that this idea never goes "live" ... :-| ... and i'm definetly not an expert but it saddness me a little when reading such threads and topics, but then again ... it's just me and my alter ego :-)
peace,
goran
edit:typo
Message edited by author 2006-03-25 16:33:10.
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03/25/2006 06:52:08 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by gooc:
i just want to say that i think this is not completely fair and this happenings on dpc lately with this private competitions and groups and "masters" challenge are not good for the spirit of the community ... |
These "private competitions" and "groups" are not inherently exclusive, as theyhave all been more or less open to first-come-first-served. To say they are "not good for the spirit of the community" is an interesting observation, because the community is flocking to them and clamoring to be a part of them.
They are completely unofficial, not officially sanctioned by DPC, and represent a real "need" of some members that is being addressed by these members themselves. Consider them "trial runs"; if they are wildly usccesful, they may be assimilated into the official structure of the site, who knows?
But we have seen many threads about people leaving the site because it no longer addresses their needs. Isn't it a wonderful thing that we, as members, can create our own little competitions and leagues to fill these perceived voids and rekindle interest and increased participation? Remember, each of these competitions and leagues represents a group of people who have committed to entering challenges refularly and thus are enhancing the overall experience of the site for everyone.
Robt.
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03/25/2006 07:00:54 PM · #111 |
| Anyone know how long the poll will be open? |
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03/25/2006 07:06:35 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by BakerBug:
Anyone know how long the poll will be open? |
The poll is currently scheduled to end tonight.
~Terry
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03/25/2006 07:14:25 PM · #113 |
Just to throw my two cents in about the bracket leagues. Only the one I started I believe is exclusive (although I guess some of the others have their own rules to exclude ringers). However, as there were no other leagues when I originally posted, I had zero idea if there would be an interest or not. I wanted to have a relatively even playing field and thus decided to have some requirements for entry. The second season of the League of Death will be open entry with seeding, so the only exclusive bracket will no longer be exclusive.
So perhaps I bear some of the blame for fanning the flames of this current argument, but that wasn't my intention. Even if it was, clicking "ignore" on the thread seems like an easy way to remove the league from anybody's eyes and letting them have their own fun. |
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03/25/2006 07:46:29 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
But we have seen many threads about people leaving the site because it no longer addresses their needs. Isn't it a wonderful thing that we, as members, can create our own little competitions and leagues to fill these perceived voids and rekindle interest and increased participation? Remember, each of these competitions and leagues represents a group of people who have committed to entering challenges refularly and thus are enhancing the overall experience of the site for everyone.
Robt. |
Well said, Bear. Recently Robt and I had a brief communication about this very thing. I haven't participated much on the site in the last year or so - nowhere near as much as I did early on - and part of my justification for this was that I was starting to find it very repetitive. New members signing up and having the same discussions the 'old' members have had over the years wasn't encouraging me to participate anymore. In his infinite wisdom Bear not-so-delicately pointed out that if the older members stopped participating, that cycle was guaranteed to continue. As always, if we're not part of the solution, we're part of the problem.
In the last month, we've seen Kiwi rejoin the ranks of site council, and increased participation as a result of these little side games. If I'm lucky enough to advance in the Death Match, I'll enter as many as 4 weeks in a row - something I've never done in the three years I've been here. If there's another Invitational Challenge and I qualify - I'll enter that too. How can that be a bad thing?
These things are in addition to the many benefits offered by the site. If you don't yet qualify - work your arse off to get there. If you're not interested in qualifying - don't. None of this is detrimental to those who can't or don't want to play. If you chose not to, then you're still entitled to enjoy the site as you have been prior to the advent of the new things that are helping keep us old buggers interested.
High fives to all that are working to keep the site growing.
I'll now return to the rock under which i've been hiding.
P-ness. |
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03/25/2006 07:51:14 PM · #115 |
This item about equipment is not indeed a valid one. If you just want to take snapshots that is okay and any point and shoot will do but when you want to compete there should be more consideration to making a better camera part of your life. Remeber Joey made great stride with a point and shoot. Good used equipment is available in this site and others. And then, not all of us can enter every challnge. An example is if you live in a City and there is a landscape challenge are not those better placed have a little bit of advantage? There are also challenge topics that do not appeal to everyone and many just skip them.
Now, if you complain that extra challenges for ribbon winners hampers your opportunity then I assume that you have entered every possible challenge available to you. If your count of challenges entered is not very high in comparison to your time here, honestly, what is another missed. You have another challenge awaiting you and they come weekly.
Also, you can not compare free study with invitationals. While there are a great deal of good images there are also many bad ones. The invitational are 95 great and this makes the difference. |
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03/25/2006 07:57:00 PM · #116 |
Dan is right. I don't have many women taking their clothes off around me. That does put me at a disadvantage doesn't it?
*goes off and pouts* |
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03/25/2006 08:18:33 PM · #117 |
People can be as against something like the invitationals all they want. The great thing about society is that we have the ability to protest. However, like any other part of society, what most of the people want, most of the people *usually* get, and it's really no different here. Most people like, want, and look forward to, these invitationals.. or "masters" as some people insist on continuing to call them.
That's really all there is to it. |
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03/25/2006 10:06:35 PM · #118 |
Amazing! I love DPC, but I just don't understand how we (as a community) can get so worked up sometimes.
Can't we just chill a little, kick back, and applaud those who have done well in our little corner of the photography world by having a special event once a year?
Super Bowl, World Series, Breeder's Cup, PGA Master's, etc... those teams/people that made it to the big event got there by earning it.
It's competition. If you haven't qualified, try harder to get "invited" next year, and have fun while trying. ;^)
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03/25/2006 10:11:27 PM · #119 |
I haven't read the whole thread, just pieces & parts, so I'm not sure if this has been said.
I see some people don't want an invitational for previuos ribbon winners, because that would just guarantee another ribbon for 3 more photographers.
I have no problem with a "championship" (if you will), but I have an idea...why not run a simultaneous "never won a ribbon" challenge. That would at the same time guarantee three photgraphers their first ribbons.
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03/26/2006 01:35:00 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
These "private competitions" and "groups" are not inherently exclusive, as theyhave all been more or less open to first-come-first-served. To say they are "not good for the spirit of the community" is an interesting observation, because the community is flocking to them and clamoring to be a part of them. |
I refuse to accept the fact that people are flocking to them as proof that they are good for the site. That's the kind of thinking that makes ribbon winners out of eye candy.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
... Remember, each of these competitions and leagues represents a group of people who have committed to entering challenges refularly ... |
Not all of them are based on challenge entries.
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03/26/2006 01:46:46 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
These "private competitions" and "groups" are not inherently exclusive, as theyhave all been more or less open to first-come-first-served. To say they are "not good for the spirit of the community" is an interesting observation, because the community is flocking to them and clamoring to be a part of them. |
I refuse to accept the fact that people are flocking to them as proof that they are good for the site. That's the kind of thinking that makes ribbon winners out of eye candy.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
... Remember, each of these competitions and leagues represents a group of people who have committed to entering challenges refularly ... |
Not all of them are based on challenge entries. |
Well why are people flocking to them ?? I would assume people want more out of the site and the current format is getting a bit boring.
The last time I looked at the poll it was about 3.5 : 1 in favour of a invitational challenge, what does that say ??
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03/26/2006 02:26:53 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
First: DPC while being an educational site is first and foremost an arena of competition. That is to say learning without a testing has never really caught on. The competitions are then the test and the winners get a cyber ribbon. |
With all due respect Daniel, that may be a valid perception from your point of view but I believe that you've got it backwards if one looks at it from the point of view the admins had in mind when they started the website. My understanding is that education was supposed to be the primary objective, and the competition was the enabling mechanism.
If the masses want the site to gravitate in the direction of more emphasis on competition and less on education there may be no stopping the drift. But we should make that move with a full understanding of what we are letting go of in the process. We may be fostering the demise of the best digital photography learning opportunity on the internet in order to satisify the desires of those who have many other outlets for their competitive instincts. There are litterally dozens of other sites that offer many varieties of digital photography contests and competitions. dpc is, or at least was, a unique place for everyone who needed help to learn, and progress in their photographic capabilities. Let us not forget the newbies as we struggle to maintain the interest of the veterans. Indeed, the constant influx of new users is what sustains the site, and alows it to grow.
Disclaimer: My views on this subject are at odds with those of many posters to this thread. I believe that difference stems from the fact that I have gained almost everything I know about digital photography from this site. Users who came to be members of this community after they were already very accomplished photographers seem not to appreciate the educational value of the site as much as people like me who have benefitted so much from it.
For the record: I spoke out, vehemently, against the concept at the time of the first Masters. At that time I had earned no ribbons and was not eligible to enter. Now I have earned two red ribbons, and under most of the proposals, I would be eligible to enter. I still think it is a concept that, in both the short term and in the long run, is harmful to the original intent of those who founded this site.
In the ever-changing world of internet websites there is something to be said for staying the same, especially if you are very good at what you are trying to accomplish.
As always, just my two cents.
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03/26/2006 02:36:32 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Not all of them are based on challenge entries. |
Unless I've missed something, they currently all are.
I don't see these as in any way changing the nature of the site as drastically as you do. They are subsets of the larger competitions, not additional competitions. They encourage participation, they encourage activity. Participation and activity, in my eyes, are essential to maintaining the site as a learning resource.
If these are a reaction to anything, IMO, it's to the recent trend of nitpicking and negativity and general "legalistic" bad vibes in the community, which has turned many people off. These are positive developments, not negative ones.
In my opinion, of course.
Robt.
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03/26/2006 03:20:37 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Not all of them are based on challenge entries. |
Unless I've missed something, they currently all are. |
Perhaps it was me who missed something. I did not mean to include only those that are currently in the threads. I cede the point to you. I haven't paid them as much attention as you have. But I can't go along with their being "essential". We got along fine for a few years without them. I reserve judgement on whether they are positive or negative; but, at the same time, resist thinking that we can increase emphasis on competition without decreasing emphasis on education.
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03/26/2006 03:39:17 AM · #125 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Not all of them are based on challenge entries. |
Unless I've missed something, they currently all are. |
Perhaps it was me who missed something. I did not mean to include only those that are currently in the threads. I cede the point to you. I haven't paid them as much attention as you have. But I can't go along with their being "essential". We got along fine for a few years without them. I reserve judgement on whether they are positive or negative; but, at the same time, resist thinking that we can increase emphasis on competition without decreasing emphasis on education. |
If education is decreasing, it has nothing, or extremely little, to do with extra challenges or sub-challenges started by users in addition to whatever else is going on on the site.
Personally, I don't believe that the education of newcomers has been affected in anyway, shape, or form at all. There are always trends around here. Always have been, always will be. The trend right now is for people to try and branch out, but the threads and tutorials and commenting and answers to questions are all *STILL THERE* |
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