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02/09/2006 11:46:20 PM · #1 |
OK, here is the hypothetical situation. You have a 5 year old. He comes one day from school with a note from Principal's office describing his horrible act. Namely, he apparently attempted to choke someone in the classroom. From what you, as a parent, could deduce from the letter, when asked "Why did you do it?" there was no answer. When asked "Did you try to hurt her?" the answer was yes.
Now, you talked to your child and pretty much deduced that the incident was completely blown out of proportion. Your child explained to you a minor incident, not even an altercation, more of a verbal thing after a mild contact with hair on the neck. The other kid reported 'choking' to a teacher, and the whole thing was accelerated: indictment, trial, and sentencing, all in 45 minutes.
You of course did not ask your child leading or yes/no questions, but approached him with open-ended questions that required your child to explain the situation rather than reply with short yes/no answers to the questions formulated to satisfy the interrogator. Remember, we are talking about 5 year old here.
Your child ended up stating the following through tears:"Why am I being punished for touching her, and she is not being punished for lying; lying is very bad, too!"
Now, if you have asked your child "did you do it" and if he had said "No", there would be a whole world of possibilities open, and you might even consider that he had lied to you. It is so easy to lie when given such opportunity. But, with a statement like this, can you believe that a 5 year old can come up with such exculpatory statement? Plus, you know your child, and you pretty much can always tell when he is lying by looking him straight in the eye.
So, you of course believe your child. You prepare for the meeting with the principal for tomorrow morning, where you are supposed to put your signature on the document that accuses your child of almost an attempted murder. That is supposed to go in his permanent record.
What would you do? Please share your thoughts, with the following in mind:
1) These are the thoughts of the parent, therefore obviously a biased person. If there are fallacies in the parents' reasoning, please enlighten.
2) Help is desperately needed here. You as a parent do not want to throw accusations around that are unwarranted. It is in the end, your word against the schools' and you were not there when it happened. Moreover, the girl involved is not to blame at all - if she lied, that's what the kids do. You cannot blame her.
3) While the blame obviously lies in the adults' reaction (the educators that are supposed to act in a positive way), you as a parent of a child that is supposed to go to that school for n more years, do not want to antagonize them too much. At the same time, you definitively do not want to jeopardize your child's future by allowing such statement to go into his record just so you can maintain good relationship with the people that look at you and your son, er... fill in the blank here.
Thank you for reading this far, and please reply, as this hypothetical parent needs to go to the Principal's office tomorrow morning and discuss the situation... |
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02/09/2006 11:51:25 PM · #2 |
I'd simply refuse - tell them to get the other kid and the other parent to come in and all have a nice chat about what happened and how the other kid is "lying" about what happened before you sign anything. Word against word? Did someone see something? Sounds like crap on a stick to me, but that's one side of the story right?
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02/09/2006 11:55:11 PM · #3 |
| One Question to ask. Is this new behavior from the child or is there other situations the child has been in. Either way communicate with the child and communicate with the teacher. Don't sign JACK until the whole story is out. |
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02/09/2006 11:58:02 PM · #4 |
| If there was no real 'choking' involved, i wouldnt be signing anything. Sounds like you all have to sit together and find out the full story |
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02/10/2006 12:08:55 AM · #5 |
| a question is did any adult see the act? if not then who are they to believe one child or the other when different stories are told. |
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02/10/2006 12:15:54 AM · #6 |
Tough, I know. It would be easier if they had a camera to record the whole darn thing. It happened in the classroom, so there were 20 kids and a teacher in there. The parent does not know if the teacher had seen anything - it sure sounds like they did see something, after all, they are supposed to pay attention in the classroom. If I were a teacher, I would not come to the principal and tell them "I haven't seen what actually happened" even if I weren't looking at the time.
No, there is no prior bad behavior (at least until today parents were not aware of any. However, on the report it states that there was previous "mildly" aggressive behavior of which the parents were never informed.)
If it was believing one child's story against another's, it would be easy, but there are adult stories involved here as well...
I'd rather be sleeping now... |
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02/10/2006 12:29:56 AM · #7 |
| The teacher may think she saw it but she may just have seen the reaction of the little girl. I have two young girls 6 and 2 if my sons even go near them sometimes they cry bloody murder. If there is a thought process in the teachers mind toward your child then that will play a big part in what she thinks she saw. I would talk to the other parents. My son picked up a kid in school and body slammed him to the ground (he wrestles) but he was actually protecting himself because the other kid grabbed him first but the teacher saw my son throw the other kid down. It was alot like this situation. I went straight to the parents of the other kid with my son and we talked it out. Hope it works out. |
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02/10/2006 12:46:52 AM · #8 |
The issue at hand is whether there were any witnesses to this alleged incident. If indeed the teacher did witness the event, one must establish if he or she saw all that transpired, or is the accusation based solely on the report made by the little girl.
In the former case, it becomes incumbent upon the school board representatives to discuss the matter with the teacher and yourself with a view of determining what exactly the teacher saw, when she saw it and whether she can ascertain that your son was indeed unprovoked.
If the decision is based solely on the unsubstantiated comments of the little girl, then that is a totally different story. You must impress upon the school representatives that the word of one individual carries no more weight than that of another.
With regards to signing a document, I would strongly urge you NOT to do that as it may have a significant impact on your son's future, and the way he is/will be perceived by other people in authority. I hate to suggest this, but you might consider advising the school board that you will be bringing this matter to the attention of your attorney, and that you will inform them of his views in this matter.
The decision is yours of course, but you must take into consideration that the actions you take will have an impact on your son's future.
Ray |
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02/10/2006 12:48:16 AM · #9 |
Srdanz, I'm one of those "hypothetical" elementary principals. We have to use due process, meaning we have to listen to all sides of the story, check out the facts and base decisions on sound information and principles.
When you go to the "hypothetical" meeting, be willing to listen to the information the principal has gathered, and respectfully share the information that you have. Parents are often able to get their children to share their stories with more detail than school personnel can. Be willing to hear that your child has not shared all of the story with you. Children will share the story from their perspective and may leave out parts that are not important to them, but are very important in the entire scene.
More than once, I have found new information at a parent meeting that has lead me to a complete turn around on my original view. Other times, my information has given the parent another view to complete the picture.
If you find you still disagree with the findings, remember that you are not signing your agreement, just that you have knowledge of the school's report. I allow parents to note their disagreement of an issue next to their signature if they feel the need.
Recheck to see how long the notation stays on the record. We do not usually put discipline information in the permanent record. It will go into my file where I will refer to it if future issues come up. Rarely will I go back more than a year.
While I understand there are SOB principals out there, most of us are decent caring human beings who chose this profession in order to make lives rich (as we will never be rich financially). We don't find joy in reporting problem behavior or in dishing out consequences.
You should be fine as long as you listen and share.
Becky |
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02/10/2006 01:25:00 AM · #10 |
It sounds like you handled this situation really well with your son and did a great job of getting to the truth. If you approach the meeting with the adults in the same way, I think you'll have similar success. My only advice is to remain calm, understanding and positive in the meeting. Best of luck, Srdan.
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02/10/2006 02:03:05 AM · #11 |
From what you have said, the impression I get is that someone (the teacher or the girl) reported a choking, it was taken to the principal (by someone), the principal had already made up his/her mind as to what happened before the child was interviewed.
Several things need to be addressed with this principal:
- Why was the child interviewed without the parents present? No, think it thru -- normal civilized conversation is completely within the principal's rights by virtue of thier job, but making acusations steps way out of bounds.
- The parent was only notified after the child had been 'forced' to confess to a felony.
- Why were the parents not notified of any 'so called' previous incidents?
- Don't be fooled by the seriousness of this situation. It is very serious. Anything that goes into the childs permanent record will have an impact on them for the rest of their time at that school -- and will follow them to any school those records are transferred to. It will have an adverse effect on the child thru some of the most formulative years.
Finally, don't just threaten to talk to an attorney -- do so. They are making serious accusations (felony) against the child -- do not take them lightly. They are trained professionals -- do not go into a meeting with them unarmed.
Personally, I would call the school and notify them I would not be attending any meeting until I had time to seek council -- then do so. People, such as your describe this principal, need brought down to earth. They are so certain they hold all the cards and know all the answers they don't have to listen to the facts but can make accusations with abandon. It is absolutely amazing how meek and cooperative they become after a call from an attorney.
One last thing -- write it all down, in great detail, before it begins to fade or run together. The exact conversation between parent and child and take that and the note from the principal to the attorney.
David
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02/10/2006 02:07:28 AM · #12 |
Thank you all!
Becky, I have a great relationship with the school so far, and I don't think that anyone here is SOB... I'm sure that I'll be able to have a discussion on the academic level with them. I am ready to hear the other side, too, and what I'm worried the most isn't the record, and it isn't my relationship with the school. My priority #1 is how is my son going to be treated in the future, and even more importantly, how is he going to perceive the unjust system if he really is not to blame for this.
Believe me, I know him very well, and his reactions are different if he's been wrong vs. when he was unjustly accused of doing something he didn't do. (Starting from his own sister, and into the outside world).
Thanks again, and till the next challenge!
-Serge
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02/10/2006 06:57:00 AM · #13 |
Hi Serge
As an ex-principal,(headteacher in UK), I have had to deal with numerous complaints such as this and it is a nightmare for all concerned! As head of school you have a duty to protect every child and to see that they are not in danger. Any serious "attack" from another child, such as biting, hitting on the head, grabbing around the neck, drawing blood in any way, stabbing with pencils, compasses, etc,etc has to involve parents as they could endanger another child. So as a school you have two children of a very young age, one of whom was grabbed in some way around the neck. The victim is probably dramatising the incident ( where there any marks on the girl's neck? children bruise easily and if there was any strong force this would be apparent), but there seems no doubt the boy did grab her. There appear to be minor previous displays of aggression so this is the time to call in the parents for a chat and an attempt to allay future problems by suggesting ways of disciplining or altering said behaviour.
Talk of a lawyer seems way overboard and inflammatory, the paper you need to sign is not something we use in the UK so I have no understanding of its importance but logically a minor incident when a child is 5 is not going to have much weight in the future - think about it! On the other hand if it is going on file ( most if which is never read again!) I would ask that your own thoughts, version is included in the file.
A five year old's perception of what occured will have altered within a few minutes of it happening so don't be closed to what the principal has to say if there was an adult "witness" and it does not mean your child is lying or the other child is lying - they just see it diffently or have forgotten exactly and are improvising!
Basically go in and work with the school, don't go in ready to just fight your and your son's corner - after all hopefully everyone just wants to make sure both children are OK.
As a mother of a 30year old and 28 year old I assure you I have been there, got the T shirt, come out the other side and know that this will be a forgotten incident in three months time as long as you allow it to be!
Good luck!
and sorry for the long post!
Pauline
PS It is necessary for you to have a word with your son about how dangerous it is to grab people around the neck and how to react if there is problem with another child. Some role play and teaching stock replies ( such as " I don't like that so please stop" or "I am getting angry so I am not playing any more") to help him deal with difficult situations, might be helpful to him now and in the future - or to any child actually!
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02/10/2006 08:26:11 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Some role play and teaching stock replies ( such as " I don't like that so please stop" or "I am getting angry so I am not playing any more") to help him deal with difficult situations, might be helpful to him now and in the future - or to any child actually! |
Good advice for adults, too.
=)
(I appreciate the explanation of how children "improvise" their stories when put in a corner, too. I have vivid memories of doing the same thing--it wasn't lying to me, but adults thought it was....they just didn't understand how my "reality" was formulated.)
You'll do fine, srdanz! What a thoughtful parent you're being! |
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02/10/2006 09:50:08 AM · #15 |
I had an incident with my son awhile back on the playground at his new school. My father in law actually stoped me in the street and told me the school called him and conner got in a fight, was hitting kids on the playground. I didnt need to go get him but he spent some time in the principals office and went back to class.
We had just recently moved around acouple times that last summer and I was worried that it might have effected him badly as he had never done anything like this in the past.
I talked to the teacher, the principal, read the report sent home which said that he had pushed a kid face into the snow (not hitting them) and that when the teacher told him to go stand on the wall he tried to leave the playground. Now I know kids and I know my son, he isnt mean or vicious but he does disobey with regularity on ocassion.
The story I got from my son is yes that they were playing and he pushed the little girl down. The teacher saw him do it and he was asked to go stand on the wall for the remaining recess, he didnt want to listen to her and stand on the wall so he tried to leave the playground.
Kids play, I realize that and understand that they were playing and he was not intending to hurt her, regardless of that we made sure he KNOWS he is not allowed to push any girl at any time for any reason. After I was sure I got the story, to me the pushing and playing on the playground wasnt as important as that he disobeyed the teacher and that he tried to leave the school. Some may think that I punished him for the wrong reasons, for disobeying and leaving rather than what they might consider the big deal, the push on the playground. However you have to realize that knowing my son I know this wasnt meant to be mean or vicious, they were playing, had it been a boy the teacher saw him push it might have been different, or if she had seen the whole scenario she might have seen all of them pushing each other in the snow. So my son got the boys are not allowed to push girls around for any reason lecture than punishment for that.One thing we made sure to do is let my son know that we believed him. That is important to a kid.
If you believe your son is telling the truth, if he didnt chole her than make sure he knows you believe him. even if everything goes south at the school, make sure he knows that you are on his side. I would also find out what this past thing they are talking about is and make sure the school knows that you as a parent need to be informed about any "incident" you son might have had, after all how can you correct behavior if you dont know about it. As it sounds like the school is now holding his past incident against him this is important.
anyway, had to share my experience and hope it might help. |
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02/10/2006 10:42:23 AM · #16 |
I second Mavrik's suggestion - get everyone involved, as well as the parents of the other child, and have a sit down to discuss it. The truth will probably come out. Educators make mistakes.
2 years ago i got a call from the school stating that my son was being suspended from the bus for using profanity to the driver. When i asked for the circumstances, the incident sounded odd. When i asked for the date of occurrence, it was a day that my son was out of school due to illness. When i pointed this out to the principal, he stated that the driver must have given him the wrong information. He called back later and said it had actually occurred one day later, in the afternoon. Bzzzz - wrong answer. While my son was in school that second day, i had taken him out early for a doctor's appointment. I pointed this out to the principal, and he verified it. Then he refused to remove the suspension, stating that the driver insisted the event had occurred. Needless to say, i was pissed. Jad to take the issue to the superintendent of the district to get it straightened out, finally.
My son is a teenager and no angel, but adults can and do make mistakes. Unfortunately, often they don't want to 'fess up.
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02/10/2006 10:50:55 AM · #17 |
Apparently, srdanz story is not unusual...
Article From this morning's newspaper |
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02/10/2006 02:45:35 PM · #18 |
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I agree this is completely OTT! I have had lots worse than this amongst 6 year olds and dealt with it with a smile and a quiet chat to the mother, suggesting they talk to their offspring about what behaviour was acceptable and what was not! Most situations can be sorted out without resorting to suspension.
What happened to the days when "Kiss Chase" was a favourite in the playground??
I think schools in the USA are much more worried about legal action than in the UK although it is on the increase here. Teachers are told not to touch their pupils in any way - something I'm afraid I ignore! If a child needs a hug they get one!
P
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