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02/01/2006 08:37:55 AM · #1 |
How do you feel about receiving comments during a challenge with an edited version of your photo?
Many people say they want to learn something here. A comment can be good for that, but I figured that a 'workshop' version can better show what I mean sometimes. So in the best of 2005 challenge I did that a couple of times, edited the entry, post it to my workshop folder and add it as a thumb to the comment. At the Trekearth, TrekNature and Treklens photography sites (not challenges) this is also common practice. A great way to learn new tricks or the see a different view on things, I find it very welcome when people do that.
This is mostly useful for editing.
I saw that most of those comments were marked as helpful, but someone who I hadn't even commented on said in reply to my comment on someone else's photo: "I'd be LIVID if someone had the nerve to edit my shot WHILE voting was going on, to "improve" it and post it as a comment to me! That's wild."
He didn't like me version either, that can happen, no problem.
What is your view on this? Is it a good way to learn something (about editing or about other people's views), even if your photo is doing well? Or is it a rude unwelcome thing, a comment like "up your contrast" or "take out the purple hue" is just fine.
It is a lot of work and I'm not going to do it if the general concencus is that it is unwelcome.
Message edited by author 2006-02-01 08:39:05.
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02/01/2006 08:44:04 AM · #2 |
Some people learn better visually and could benefit from your approach. However, there are those who would not appreciate the effort.
Me, I think as long as the new version still resembled the original (no cropping to create an entirely different image) then it would be ok.
As you say, this site is for learning and what better way to learn than by seeing what someone else would have don. |
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02/01/2006 08:47:27 AM · #3 |
| I would wholeheartedly welcome it. Not only did the person take the time to actually look at my photo, they even went the extra step to SHOW me their suggestions. That, in my idea, is the best kind of vote. I know for a fact they didn't just glance at it and click a number based on initial impression. I would feel honored if anyone did that with any of my images. I find that the more I work on a particular image, the more tunnel vision I develop, and I'm increasingly less able to view it from other perspectives. |
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02/01/2006 08:48:06 AM · #4 |
| I would have absolutely no problem with this as long as the person would give an explanation of what was done. Maybe send a screen capture of the layers from PS along with the edited image so that I could actually learn something from the shared edit. |
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02/01/2006 09:13:29 AM · #5 |
In my mind, there's nothing wrong with your approach but why not ask before you do your version?
Something like, "I see some room for improvement in your image but I'm having trouble finding the words to express my ideas. Can I show you what I want to say with an edited version?"
I think if you ask first you won't be wasting anyone's time and you'll come off as more polite and less presumptuous. |
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02/01/2006 09:20:54 AM · #6 |
Don't worry, matt's been moody lately. But I don't think I'd like that either.
Suggestions yes, editing no. If someone in the forums asks for help, I'm pretty free with the liberties I take in editing and re-posting. But, yeah. Not during a challenge.
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02/01/2006 09:21:30 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
In my mind, there's nothing wrong with your approach but why not ask before you do your version?
Something like, "I see some room for improvement in your image but I'm having trouble finding the words to express my ideas. Can I show you what I want to say with an edited version?"
I think if you ask first you won't be wasting anyone's time and you'll come off as more polite and less presumptuous. |
Great idea. Posting a workshop shows a great deal of care.
On Treaklens you can "allow/disallow" workshop in you profile. |
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02/01/2006 09:35:58 AM · #8 |
I thought the 'best of' winner needed a touch more contrast as well.
I'm not sure I'd spend any time posting an example edit though, unless they were looking for help. |
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02/01/2006 09:42:38 AM · #9 |
| I'm not going to get mad at anyone that tries to edit one of my shots differently, I know they're just trying to help, but I would appreciate a quick "Mind if I take a crack at this?" PM or something. After all, it is my photo. |
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02/01/2006 01:46:49 PM · #10 |
Hmm, I see your points.
I guess it would be better if we had the option coded into the website, at least, if there is demand for it from the photographers and willingness to do some by the commenters.
Like this:
An upload line in the commentbox.
A preferences box for the photographer to tell that they are interested in receiving one on the challenge submission page, just like you can tick off if you want an SC comment or not. When you don't want it there will not even be an upload line in the commentbox.
Set a limit of two workshops per photographer or so.
However, I think that not many have the time (I did these in the middle of the night while I was doing some printing and had nothing to do) to do this. So it might not be worth all the work (coding). From a photographers point of view I think a good percentage of participants could benefit from it and would be interested.
(Maybe an SC member can move this discussion to website suggestions?)
Message edited by author 2006-02-01 13:49:18.
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02/01/2006 01:48:30 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
I'm not sure I'd spend any time posting an example edit though, unless they were looking for help. |
When I make comments about edits I usually have Photoshop open and do some quick work on the entry to make sure that I am not saying something that isn't true or doesn't work. The only extra work would be saving and uploading.
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02/01/2006 01:55:58 PM · #12 |
Azrifel - while I agree with those who think you should ask first, I wanted to say that this sort of comment would be very welcome to me! If you every have time on your hands & want to edit some, feel free to pick on my profile!
Message edited by author 2006-02-01 13:56:15. |
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02/01/2006 01:57:55 PM · #13 |
I thought your post was nice and not even remotely ugly. I personally wouldn't mind receiving that kind of a comment. The other person who made the unsolited remark to your post was way out of line. He's a tad peculiar to begin with so I would just take it with a grain of salt :)
Message edited by kirbic - Edited to remove personal attack. |
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02/01/2006 02:19:38 PM · #14 |
Azrifel, since you asked...this was the first time that I had received a comment with a thumbnail link in it. I was surprised, but at the time, the link did not show any image. I was not really interested in searching it out, but I did mark it as "helpful" at the time, since I did appreciate the time and obvious interest that was showed.
It was not until after the voting was over that the actual thumbnail image showed in the message(s).
Although I do appreciate the fact that someone took the time and effort at editing, I do not think that it is a good idea in the comment section, and I would discourage it from being done. It generated quite a distraction and, imo, was a sideshow. I certainly don't hold any bad feelings toward Azrifel for what was done, but I think that the law of unintended consequences certainly applies here. I did feel a bit awkward about the whole thing. My feelings about the validity or lack thereof of the suggested edit makes no difference.
My conclusion is that it should not be done, nor allowed in the public comment section attached to an image. A PM would do the job quite nicely, and avoid all the problems.
Again, thanks for the interest and effort Azrifel. |
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02/01/2006 02:35:34 PM · #15 |
Personally, I'd suggest only including the written comment during the voting, and if the person wants to see you version, post it in an additional comment after the challenges closes.
This way you don't "presume" to edit the photo without permission, you don't have to hide the photo in the Workshop folder, and you bump the entry up on the "recently commented-on" list. Plus, at that point, everyone can read and learn from your example -- during the voting, only the photographer can see your comment anyway. |
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02/01/2006 03:04:49 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by jemison:
My conclusion is that it should not be done, nor allowed in the public comment section attached to an image. A PM would do the job quite nicely, and avoid all the problems. |
I edited my comments on your photo accordingly. Thanks for posting your view on this.
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02/01/2006 03:08:56 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by jemison:
My conclusion is that it should not be done, nor allowed in the public comment section attached to an image. A PM would do the job quite nicely, and avoid all the problems. |
I edited my comments on your photo accordingly. Thanks for posting your view on this. |
I think in the public comments section is the perfect place to post visual suggestions -- just after the challenge and with the photographer's permission.
Feel free to improve any of my photos : ) |
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02/01/2006 03:51:37 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by jemison:
My conclusion is that it should not be done, nor allowed in the public comment section attached to an image. A PM would do the job quite nicely, and avoid all the problems. |
I edited my comments on your photo accordingly. Thanks for posting your view on this. |
I think in the public comments section is the perfect place to post visual suggestions -- just after the challenge and with the photographer's permission.
Feel free to improve any of my photos : ) |
I'll agree with that, with the caviats. |
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02/01/2006 04:36:16 PM · #19 |
I believe what was done was in very poor taste. You should never presume someone else wants you to edit thier work, always ask permission first. The poor taste was then to publish the edit, without permission to either edit or display.
I also would be livid if someone i did not have any interaction with regarding the image previously had done this with one of my enteries during voting. A simple PM of mind if i try something would have been a lot more polite. |
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02/01/2006 04:41:53 PM · #20 |
Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between telling someone you'd like to see their shot with more contrast and showing it to them with more contrast. Certainly not enough difference to be livid about. Of course, some people get livid when you write that as well so what can you do?
In any case, I think Azrifel had only good intentions and he's remedied the situation. Just be careful about PMing people...you just might hit the ones who get LIVID about that. |
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02/01/2006 04:44:31 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by mesmeraj:
I believe what was done was in very poor taste. You should never presume someone else wants you to edit thier work, always ask permission first. The poor taste was then to publish the edit, without permission to either edit or display.
I also would be livid if someone i did not have any interaction with regarding the image previously had done this with one of my enteries during voting. A simple PM of mind if i try something would have been a lot more polite. |
I suggest we all give the guy a break! He did not mean it maliciously and was very upfront about inquiring as to it's appropriatness and correcting what he had done. I was certainly not "livid" - just a tad annoyed at the ruckus it caused in what is my favorite group of comments on my by far most successful photo here.
I feel badly for Azrifel, and wish we could just let it go. |
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02/01/2006 05:39:01 PM · #22 |
Ooh nice to run into this - let's see, there's two lines of thought I see, no three.
1) What Mav said.
2) Nah, Mav's wrong. (hey, it happens)
3) Mav's an idiot anyways. Ignore him.
I obviously think 1. I can't disagree with 2 if someone else has another opinion, I was just voicing mine. And you 3's don't really count for much with me. So "I'm moody" and I left an "unsolited remark" and I'm peculiar? lol
How about we talk about the merits of what I said rather than talk about me? Although flattered, I have forums turned off and I didn't see this until Jemison just pm'd me.
I stated my opinion on this - azrifel asked for your opinions. Some agree with me, some with him. I do not think it's "poor taste" to download the image after the challenge, work with it, and ask to show off what you did that may improve it. That being said, that's a WORLD away from posting an alternative version in the comments during voting.
I agree that showing is better than telling sometimes and if you have an idea, great. But to post a thumb of your "improved" version during voting is just WAY presumptive. If voting ends, someone gets a 3.9 and you ask to improve their shot and show them how, that's FANTASTIC and that's why we're all here. And yes, I would have been LIVID if I had a frickin 8 and someone posted a "better" version in my comments. But hey, that's just me - and that's why I posted it.
Jemison seems to have agreed with me in all the ways I give a crap about - so I edited my comments on the image and this will (hopefully - unless you know, someone ticks me off again) be my last post on this subject. I agree that Az definitely didn't MEAN to be offensive - and I'd love to let it go as per jemison's request.
M
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02/01/2006 06:15:25 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
I stated my opinion on this - azrifel asked for your opinions. Some agree with me, some with him. |
Because there are several people in this discussion alone that disagree with doing it unrequested, I think it is best to do it on request or after asking the photographer. It is good to have had this discussion with input from several sides, it can be a reference for people with the same ideas.
We can now lock this discussion.
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02/01/2006 06:33:40 PM · #24 |
I think this has been a very productive discussion...and it might continue if necessary.
Yes. Mavrik is sometimes an "idiot" but more often passionate. (We're like that in cental NY state.)
No. I don't think that the comments section is an appropriate forum for either 1) edited versions of entries during challenge voting...and not after without permission (even though the coding of the site allows for it--just etiquette, here) or, 2) comments that lash out at etiquette infringers and create comment "behind the scenes"
So...if someone is counting me among those that endorse unsolicited posts of "improved" edits in challenge images still under voting, dont. And...if someone thinks I'm going to come down hard on people (like Mav) that speak out about it, furgetaboutit! Neither, in my opinion, is quite on the tip of the etiquette iceberg--but sometimes there's a fly in the soup and we shouldn't ignore it (whether the "fly" is an image or a comment.)
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