Zone system and exposing highlights @ V

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

01/20/2006 11:46:31 PM · #1

Ok I was reading about the zone system created by Ansel Adams and it said when shooting you should try to expose your highlights at â��Vâ��, which is 18% gray or neutral gray. Unless you want to under or over expose you picture.

It said with digital you should do this using RAW mode because it is the closest to undeveloped film. It said (if Iâ��m not mistaken) that when using digital in Av or Tv mode you want to put the exposure or focus point on the brightest area you are shooting and then holding down the sutter button half way frame your shot and take the picture.

Is all this true? If so how do you assure that you are exposing the highlights at zone V? I wish I could go back and find the article. I went to freedictionary.com and typed in Ansel Adams and began linking from there. I will try to find it.

Could some one help me understand this? (calling on Bear_Music, Kirbic, or anyone) I am in need of a zone exposure lesson. :P
Thanks,
-SDW

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

01/20/2006 11:55:49 PM · #2

I'm not well versed in any of that jargon, but I will say that I have found, through trial and error, that using the camera's spot-meter, holding the shutter release partially to allow it to meter, then scanning the scene for the brightest areas, locking the exposure and re-composing the shot and then taking it works real well.
Shooting everything at 1/2 stop & 1 stop under in bracketing mode, averaging metering mode works well too, but I prefer to have control over what I and taking. Much rather under-expose everything a little.
I can bring out shadow detail, but can't fix blow-outs.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

01/20/2006 11:58:25 PM · #3

If you follow the advice to spot meter on the brightest area, you'll be way underexposed. With digital, always take advantage of all the dynamic range you have, by exposing to the right. Highlight areas should drive the histogram just to the right edge of the graph, or slightly beyond... a little clipping is OK since you can bring it back in RAW conversion. Knowing how much clipping is recoverable comes with a litle experience, and varies from camera model to camera model.

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

01/20/2006 11:58:31 PM · #4

in jpeg fine mode.
Dunno about that RAW stuff... :D

Should have said the spot metering depends on the scene, and the amount of highlights/bright areas.
After a while, you get to know what works and what doesn't and kinda' know where to meter.

Message edited by author 2006-01-21 00:00:20.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

01/21/2006 12:00:10 AM · #5

Originally posted by BradP:

in jpeg fine mode.
Dunno about that RAW stuff... :D

C'mon Brad, join the RAW crowd... you'll never go back to JPG!

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

01/21/2006 12:00:58 AM · #6

Moi?
In the RAW?
eeeek

fotomann_forever

01/21/2006 12:01:20 AM · #7

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_system ... is that what you were reading?

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

01/21/2006 12:04:50 AM · #8

Spot metering on the brightest area when the brightest area is lighter than medium will underexpose. Finding something of medium tone in the same light as your subject and spot metering on that will give you proper exposure. Otherwise, use exposure compensation.

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

01/21/2006 12:10:42 AM · #9

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_system ... is that what you were reading?

Yes (thank you) that is one article. But there was another one I can't find.

I know everyone is going to say "what did he do, pick up his camera and not read anything"?. I feel bad asking these questions because I feel stupid :) But when metering it also locks focus if in AF mode, correct? And if so should I be shooting MF?

I know I'm making this harder than I should but I really want to learn more.
Thanks everyone.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

01/21/2006 12:14:55 AM · #10

Originally posted by southern_exposure:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_system ... is that what you were reading?

Yes (thank you) that is one article. But there was another one I can't find.

I know everyone is going to say "what did he do, pick up his camera and not read anything"?. I feel bad asking these questions because I feel stupid :) But when metering it also locks focus if in AF mode, correct? And if so should I be shooting MF?

I know I'm making this harder than I should but I really want to learn more.
Thanks everyone.

There is an exposure lock button that you can use then recompose, refocus and click shutter. Easiest is to shoot in manual mode. Meter where you want, set the aperture and shutter speed then compose, focus and shoot.

edit: you don't need to use manual focus if you use manual shooting mode

Message edited by author 2006-01-21 00:15:40.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

01/21/2006 12:17:22 AM · #11

There is so much information out there that conflicts, it can be very confusing. Part of what makes it so confusing is that what was best practice for film is not necessarily best practice for digital. Bottom line, whatever method you use to set exposure, your histogram is your friend. It is the best tool you have to judge whether your exposure was correct, and you should spend time learning what it is telling you. As far as where to set exposure, google "expose right" and start reading, then do some testing for yourself.

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

01/21/2006 12:21:35 AM · #12

Thanks everyone. Believe it or not I have never used exposure lock. I have always pressed the shutter button down half way for focus and the recomposed and took the shot.

EDIT: I guess first it's back to my manual on exposure lock and then google 'exposure right'.

Message edited by author 2006-01-21 00:22:41.

Tamron SP AF 24-135mm f/3.5-5.6 AD Aspherical IF for Canon

01/21/2006 12:22:33 AM · #13

Originally posted by southern_exposure:

But when metering it also locks focus if in AF mode, correct?

I have my AF always set in AI Servo (a little tougher on battery life, but oh well). By pre-metering, and locking the exposure, the AF operates independantly and will re-adjust when you re-compose the shot. Not sure about the other modes though.

Here is something I have never ever found documented anywhere that I stumbled on by accident. My old Olympus E-10 used to have a plastic hot shoe slide-in piece to protect the contacts. The 350D doesn't have one, and after I put one in, noticed the automatic pop-up flash no longer popped -up. As soon as I removed the hot shoe cover, it did. With it in place, the camera thinks an external flash is attached and does not command the pop-up flash to flip up.

I know, nothing to do with the zone...

fotomann_forever

01/21/2006 12:40:26 AM · #14

Scott, I think This article on Histograms will help clear up exposure for you.

The histogram is your best friend. From the one on your camera to the one in photoshop. If you don't hae any spikes on the ends, generally, you have the very best exposure you can have.

Message edited by author 2006-01-21 00:45:14.

nards656

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

01/21/2006 12:54:16 AM · #15

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by BradP:

Dunno about that RAW stuff... :D

C'mon Brad, join the RAW crowd... you'll never go back to JPG!

I don't know, kirbic, I went RAW and turned back... I love some of it but haven't produced a good JPG YET from it, so I'm just waiting until I have more time to study it. JPGs for me for now!

David.C

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

01/21/2006 01:15:29 AM · #16

When metering, an uncompensated meter evaluates the tone of the scene so it is exposed to be Zone V (middle grey). This is always the starting point no matter what the scene consists of. From here the Zone system provides a guide to adjust exposure so the metered exposure matches the actual scene.

If metering an object in the scene that is itself middle grey, no further adjustments need be made, that object will be properly exposed -- but that is not the case with objects that are darker or lighter. When the object is darker or lighter than middle grey the next step is to decide what tone it is in the scene and then decide what Zone you want it to be in the final image. Whether a darker or light zone, you now know how many stops to adjust the exposure to place that object at exactly the zone you want it to be in the final image -- 1 stop adjustment for each zone removed from zone 5. That is, if metering a fair skinned person, a desired final zone for the face may be zone 6; so add 1 stop of exposure to the suggested exposure the meter provides and take the image.

That is the basics of how the Zone system is used to place the objects in the scene at exactly the tones desired in the final image. Since a negative blocks in the shadow area, Adam\'s advice was to expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights (very loosely paraphrased) to get the greatest dynamic range possible from the medium. With digital that advice must be turned around backwards since we are working with a positive, not a negative. So you end up with the advice for working with the zone system in digital to \'expose for the highlights and process for the shadows\'.

This is likely where the article you were reading come in. By metering the highlights, the meter will give a recommended exposure that places the highlights in Zone V -- as has been mentioned, this will underexpose the image if left at that. The exposure must be adjusted to place the metered highlights in the desired zone (usually VII or VIII).

This can be done by adjusting one or more the the three exposure settings (aperture, shutter speed or ISO), but that takes concentration and a lot of practice until the exposure stops are known very well. The easier way to do this is to adjust the meter with the Exposure Value (EV) compensation control. Contrary to first impressions this is not a fourth exposure control -- it is instead a meter adjustment.

The EV compensation changes what value of grey the meter evaluates the scene against. That is adjust to an EV +1 and the meter evaluates against a grey that is 1 stop lighter than middle grey -- that is, Zone VI! By adjusting the EV compensation to have the meter evaluate an object in the scene at the desired zone, the recommended exposure will be the exposure needed to place the object in that zone in the final image.

So, after probably much more information than you were wanting, if meter the highlights and want to place them at Zone VII all that is needed is to set the EV compensation to +2, meter and take the image.

There are two cautions to this however. The first is the zone system is designed for use with a spot meter, so using other metering modes can give inconsistent results. The second is when choosing the highlights to be metered, it is best to choose the brightest part of the scene -- but do not include light sources or specular highlights (reflection of a light source) as these are nearly always blown out and metering them will give inconsistent results.

David

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

01/21/2006 01:58:42 AM · #17

I was about to wade into this and say the OP was missing important info on what to DO with that metered value of the highlights, but David C. beat me to it...

When I'm doing this sort of stuff, I don't even bother with exposure compensation, I just go to full manual and set the aperture and shutter speed to get the pointer in the viewfinder where I want it; exactly like the old days before auto-exposure :-)

R.