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01/17/2006 01:01:01 PM · #1 |
Can someone post a quick, basic tutorial on feathering to make the selection more "believable". For instance if I want to change the sky and don't want that sharp, jagged line across the foreground. Or if you have subject you are trying to isolate and blur the background, but maintain the integrity of the subject's outline. Thanks everyone. I am self taught in Photoshop, have come quite a long way, but feel this is a weak area of mine.
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01/17/2006 02:01:48 PM · #2 |
I use Adobe Photo Elements... are you refering to the 'amount' of feathering. You can change the pixel of the feather so that it is exactly right on the edge of the subject or increase it so that there is a strong feathered edge.
Is that what you are looking to do? |
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01/17/2006 02:12:05 PM · #3 |
I use photoshop 7. When you use the lasso, magnetic lassoo etc tool, a feather option becomes available on the toolbar. I'd like to know if there's a way to adjust the feathering AFTER making the selection instead of BEFORE. It would be much easier to visualy tweak that way.
:-(
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01/17/2006 02:23:08 PM · #4 |
| I agree with you Strikeslip. What I have been able to do is use the History tab and undo the selection so it goes back to where you selected the value, pick another value then redo and the selection will be still highlighted. |
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01/17/2006 02:27:33 PM · #5 |
Hey! Actually found a useful feature that PSP has and PS might not...under the 'Selection' menu I can choose to 'Modify Selection' and adjust the feathering, inside/out, various options...
Sorry...always coming up against something I want to do/try and the tool I need isn't there because the instructions are for PS. Had to toss this in. ;^)
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01/17/2006 02:28:42 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I use photoshop 7. When you use the lasso, magnetic lassoo etc tool, a feather option becomes available on the toolbar. I'd like to know if there's a way to adjust the feathering AFTER making the selection instead of BEFORE. It would be much easier to visualy tweak that way.
:-( |
In photoshop, you can modify the feathering by hitting cntrl-alt-D while the selection is live and typing in a new value. This is a shortcut to the menu item "selection/feather".
R.
Message edited by author 2006-01-17 14:29:47. |
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01/17/2006 02:31:58 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I use photoshop 7. When you use the lasso, magnetic lassoo etc tool, a feather option becomes available on the toolbar. I'd like to know if there's a way to adjust the feathering AFTER making the selection instead of BEFORE. It would be much easier to visualy tweak that way.
:-( |
In photoshop, you can modify the feathering by hitting cntrl-alt-D while the selection is live and typing in a new value. This is a shortcut to the menu item "selection/feather".
R. |
YOU DA MAN! THANKS!
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01/17/2006 02:33:12 PM · #8 |
PSE-3 can adjust the feathering after the selection is made. Just go to select/feather... and you get a menu asking for the number of pixels to feather out to.
I've found that not feathering at al will produce better effects on blurring backgrounds. When appying guassian blur in a new layer from a selection, make sure you save the selection before you copy, load the selection, and then do your blur to keep the edges of the new selection from bleeding into the new area.
If you don't like the edge of the new layer, you can always smudge it or erase it using a very diffused or soft brush. |
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01/17/2006 02:34:15 PM · #9 |
Here's how I make complex and feathered selections :
Switch to quick mask mode (Q) and "paint in" the areas you do not want to select. You can use a variety of brushes and even the gradient tool.
When finished, switch back to standard mode (Q again) and do whatever you like with the selected area.
If you wish, you can also paint the area's to be selected in quick mask mode and then invert teh selection in standard mode.
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01/17/2006 02:37:35 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Can someone post a quick, basic tutorial on feathering to make the selection more "believable". For instance if I want to change the sky and don't want that sharp, jagged line across the foreground. Or if you have subject you are trying to isolate and blur the background, but maintain the integrity of the subject's outline. Thanks everyone. I am self taught in Photoshop, have come quite a long way, but feel this is a weak area of mine. |
Feathering is very tricky. I run afoul of it all the time. To fix your sky problem (jagged edges) you need to do two things: expand the selection by a couple of pixels and then feather the expanded selection by the same number of pixels by which you expanded it or, sometimes, a little bit more.
Where you run into problems is when you then invert the selection to work on the foreground: you get two sets of feathering overlaying each other and an anomalous band in between. This gives me absolute fits and I have yet to find the perfect solution, although I'm sure there is one. Currently, I do my work on the two separate, overlapping selections then flaten the selections into a BG layer copy, zomm way in with the sky selection loaded, and use the healing brush tool at a very small diameter to brush the neighboring sky down a couple of pixels into the area of anomaly. This should be done after sharpenign has been applied.
R. |
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01/17/2006 02:38:30 PM · #11 |
If you apply an effect on a selected area of an image feathering defines a width over which that effect gradually is applied until it is becomes 100% effective inside the selection. Feathering is evenly distributed across the boundary of your "marching ants" selection display.
Often the effect of feathering depends as much on the quality of the selection as it does the feathering value itself. Always start with a "good" selection. You may need to review a selection at high magnification and make adjustments to make it "right".
A suggestion:
Always save complex selections and save them WITHOUT a feathering value specified. You will be surprised how often you want to use the same selection more than once but need to apply a different feathering value for a different effect.
Feathering is generally used to prevent applied effects from creating jagged edges or unnatural appearances. The larger the feathering value the greater distance over which the effect is gradually increased across the selection boundary.
The amount of feathering you want depends on many factors including what the effect is, how you want it to be applied to the image and if you want a natural looking transition or not. For example, you may want a small feathering for a effect applied to sky where there is a sharp and well defined boundary with the horizon. In that case you want to select a feathering value that roughly matches the focus width of the boundary. Other times you may want an effect to be applied gradually over a large area of the image to make it look more natural.
Generally speaking, there are no set feathering rules. You have to experiment to determine values that fit your specific effect and image requirements individually.
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01/17/2006 02:39:58 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I use photoshop 7. When you use the lasso, magnetic lassoo etc tool, a feather option becomes available on the toolbar. I'd like to know if there's a way to adjust the feathering AFTER making the selection instead of BEFORE. It would be much easier to visualy tweak that way.
:-( |
In photoshop, you can modify the feathering by hitting cntrl-alt-D while the selection is live and typing in a new value. This is a shortcut to the menu item "selection/feather".
R. |
YOU DA MAN! THANKS! |
You're welcome.
R.
Message edited by author 2006-01-17 14:40:45. |
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01/17/2006 02:44:31 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I use photoshop 7. When you use the lasso, magnetic lassoo etc tool, a feather option becomes available on the toolbar. I'd like to know if there's a way to adjust the feathering AFTER making the selection instead of BEFORE. It would be much easier to visualy tweak that way.
:-( |
I believe the answer to this question is no.
Once an effect with a specific value is applied it is etched in stone and feathering cannot be tweaked later. I normally save selections without feathering values and try it out a few times to get it right.
You may want to apply feathered effects on its own layer. That way you could tweak it later on by deleting the old layer and recreating it with the saved and unfeathered selection where you apply a new feathering value.
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01/17/2006 02:48:56 PM · #14 |
Whoops! :) :) I stand corrected. Read the question carefully before answering it.
My answer applies to coming back to make changes to a feathering value long after the image has been save and exited. :) :)
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01/17/2006 02:49:03 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I use photoshop 7. When you use the lasso, magnetic lassoo etc tool, a feather option becomes available on the toolbar. I'd like to know if there's a way to adjust the feathering AFTER making the selection instead of BEFORE. It would be much easier to visualy tweak that way.
:-( |
I believe the answer to this question is no.
Once an effect with a specific value is applied it is etched in stone and feathering cannot be tweaked later. I normally save selections without feathering values and try it out a few times to get it right.
You may want to apply feathered effects on its own layer. That way you could tweak it later on by deleting the old layer and recreating it with the saved and unfeathered selection where you apply a new feathering value. |
You can definitely alter the feathering value after making the selection, as has beene xplained. I think this is what he was asking. You definitely cannot alter the fetahering on an adjustment that has already been made, as you have just stated. As you stated, the best way to deal with this is to load the selection and make the adjustment on a separate layer, but you can also do it just by adjusting, examining, and reverting to the previous history state to do it again with a different degree of feathering, as long as you're working in a linear manner.
R.
Edit to add: I see you just figured this out :-)
Message edited by author 2006-01-17 14:49:38. |
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01/17/2006 02:51:25 PM · #16 |
i'd highly recommend trying it with another layer as well, then you can use a layer mask, blending modes, etc.... Best thing in Photoshop i think.
for a lot of skies i'll just do a rough area selection, then add a Gradient adjustment layer. The selection becomes the layer mask. I'll use a custom sky gradient set on multiply or normal at 80% or so..then i'll go into the layer mask and use a soft brush to get the fringes on trees and such. Then the cloud brushes come out. That is my dayjob workflow. LOTS of sky. |
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01/17/2006 02:52:07 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Feathering is very tricky. I run afoul of it all the time. To fix your sky problem (jagged edges) you need to do two things: expand the selection by a couple of pixels and then feather the expanded selection by the same number of pixels by which you expanded it or, sometimes, a little bit more.
Where you run into problems is when you then invert the selection to work on the foreground: you get two sets of feathering overlaying each other and an anomalous band in between. This gives me absolute fits and I have yet to find the perfect solution, although I'm sure there is one. Currently, I do my work on the two separate, overlapping selections then flaten the selections into a BG layer copy, zomm way in with the sky selection loaded, and use the healing brush tool at a very small diameter to brush the neighboring sky down a couple of pixels into the area of anomaly. This should be done after sharpenign has been applied.
R. |
Robert,
Have you tried my suggestion of not feather, saving the selection, and then copying both selections to a new layer, and then applying effects. I've found it easier to fix a small line than a huge fuzzy overlapped section. Also, remember to re-load the selection before applying any gaussian blur to any layer. I find this helps, though someone may have a better working solution using feathering. |
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01/17/2006 02:55:58 PM · #18 |
Another thing to keep in mind is that not all selections have distinct boundaries. For example, channel masks used to create selections usually have "gradual" boundaries based on the channel or may only select part of the pixels, like just the red channel pixels so applying a feather may not even make sense.
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01/17/2006 02:58:26 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Robert,
Have you tried my suggestion of not feather, saving the selection, and then copying both selections to a new layer, and then applying effects. I've found it easier to fix a small line than a huge fuzzy overlapped section. Also, remember to re-load the selection before applying any gaussian blur to any layer. I find this helps, though someone may have a better working solution using feathering. |
Hmm... I'm not sure I follow this. This is not anyway something I normally have to do, but I'm very meticulous with my selections. My feather is usually 2 pixels only when I am working sky edges, and so I only have an overlap area of max 4 pixels, so it's never a "huge fuzzy overlapped section"; it's just that little, tiny, onomalous like that's barely visible.
If I'm missing something in what you're saying, feel free to try to get it through my dense skull :-)
R. |
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01/17/2006 03:00:04 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Another thing to keep in mind is that not all selections have distinct boundaries. For example, channel masks used to create selections usually have "gradual" boundaries based on the channel or may only select part of the pixels, like just the red channel pixels so applying a feather may not even make sense. |
This is DEFINITELY true; the selections I'm referring to, at least, are selections made with tools, what I call "hard" selections.
Robt. |
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01/17/2006 04:01:36 PM · #21 |
This is a great thread :-)
I have a question: So Robert, I understand that the value depends on the image, and what you are feathering, but as a general starting point, would you say then that it is good to start with a low value? (like you have mentioned 2 pix)
and also, since it was mentioned, (and I've heard it many times before) the Healing Brush- Does anyone know if photoshop 5.5 has this tool? And if so-where is the command to use it??? :-) I've looked and looked, checked Help topics, never been able to find it, I figure 5.5 just doesn't have it? |
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01/17/2006 04:05:13 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by taterbug:
This is a great thread :-)
I have a question: So Robert, I understand that the value depends on the image, and what you are feathering, but as a general starting point, would you say then that it is good to start with a low value? (like you have mentioned 2 pix)
and also, since it was mentioned, (and I've heard it many times before) the Healing Brush- Does anyone know if photoshop 5.5 has this tool? And if so-where is the command to use it??? :-) I've looked and looked, checked Help topics, never been able to find it, I figure 5.5 just doesn't have it? |
Healing brush was new with PS 7.0. You have the clone tool (we still have that) and you can vary the opacity of the clone to get a similar effect to healing brush.
How much of a feather you want to start with depends on how precise your selection is; I spend a lot of time on my selections, zooming WAY in to fine-tune them, so I can use a very narrow feather as a starting point. Your mileage may vary. It also depends VERY much on the actual pixel size of the image: if you are editing on a 640-pixel image with a selection, 2 pixels is a LOT more than it is on a 3,400 pixel image, see?
R. |
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01/17/2006 04:15:33 PM · #23 |
There are times when a well-deifined selection (less feathering) is desirable, but it is surprising how effective a really broad feather, like 100px, can be. The broader the feather, the more difficult it will be to tell where the transition is, and the less work is involved. Only use a tightly-defined selection where there is no other choice. I commonly use very broad selections for adjusting skies with respect to foregrounds.
I commonly use quick mask mode to create broadly featherred selections with the brush or gradient tools, and if I need to tweak an effect after application, the history brush works wonders. While this is good for fast edits, for more complex work a non-destructive workflow is best. For this, use adjustment layers, layer masks and even duplicate layers with just the work for selected areas. If you screw up one area, just restart that particular part.
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01/17/2006 04:17:40 PM · #24 |
Great info, thank-you :-)
...but now I feel like a real maroon :-P I've never changed the opacity on the clone...how is that done? I change opacity on layers often, is it similar?
...also, back to the value, I see what you are saying, but isn't it better to do your editing on the full size version? you wouldn't be working on a 640 pix image would you? Is my workflow all screwy??? I always resize after editing.
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01/17/2006 04:22:14 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by taterbug:
Great info, thank-you :-)
...but now I feel like a real maroon :-P I've never changed the opacity on the clone...how is that done? I change opacity on layers often, is it similar?
...also, back to the value, I see what you are saying, but isn't it better to do your editing on the full size version? you wouldn't be working on a 640 pix image would you? Is my workflow all screwy??? I always resize after editing. |
Right, I'd never do that on a 640, but some people apparently do; anyway those were just the extremes.
As for clone opacity, it's in the tool definition bar along the top when you select the clone tool. Unless it's not in 5.5 at all, I can't remember. Id it's not there, make a duplicate layer from BG (you should do this anyway when cloning) and do your cloning on that, then you can fade the layer to adjust the clone opacity.
R. |
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