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01/11/2006 12:15:52 PM · #51 |
"It's amazing how much PC users are willing to accept as normal when it could be so much easier/smoother."
For the most part it comes down to tasks and hobbies (game support is much greater with PC but is only an appeal to a limited group, I gave up on PC gaming when I bought my Xbox - better solution IMHO). For example: Macs historically are great for A/V applications and have an abundance. But when it comes down to office and business productivity applications there has been a dearth of applications.
When you are required to provide, code, or work with such applications and even more so, interact with others who do. You find yourself relegated to PC. For example: the need of using Access, software development tools, or even more so...enterprise applications such as SQL server, etc. If you've got need to interact with such you only have Windows as a choice.
A few years back Apple made a BIG BOO BOO!!! Steve Jobs repeated his mistakes and failed to learn from history. He worked w/Microsoft. The end result was Microsoft Office and IE for Mac. Then he got left dead in the water with no alternative. (He should have learned his lesson the last time he had an arrangement with Microsoft to develop Office for Mac. He gave Microsoft a Macintosh and MS Office kept getting delayed. Then Microsoft announced "Windows". Er yeah.....Steve what were you thinking?
Apple has done some brilliant moves in recent years.
a) Moving to BSD for their OSX was a big step in the right direction (I remember my Mac OS on my Powerbook 520 and programs crashed on it as much if not more than on my PC).
b) Moving to Intel, or rather x86 compatibility. This will allow them to take advantage of benefits of Intel/AMD rivalry and continued advancement.
What has held me back from buying a Mac system? The fact that I absolutely need certain Windows applications. And for that reason, dropping $4,000 on a 17" Mac Powerbook would merely be a recreational expense. Logic dictates that when I can spend $1,500 on a 17" Toshiba PC and perform all my necessary tasks that it is wiser for me to stay with PC for $1,500 and accomplish all my needs than spend $4,000 on a Mac and not be able to perform all my required tasks and have to spend another $1,500 on a Toshiba for a total of $5,500 vs $1,500. BIG DIFFERENCE
Now, I do have hope that Apple will think aggressively and court me, the PC user. How to do this this?
Simple, just follow the prescribed steps below:
a) equip your notebooks with a 2-button trackpad. Windows users have immense difficulty getting passed this barrier. I'm in a rush, I do NOT want to have to click and hold for a second or two to get my options menu. Sure, the desktops support multi-button mice. But when it comes to laptops I'm SOL!
b) offer the wedding package Titanium notebook. What do I mean by that? Provide a 17" notebook that can take "two" laptop drives and a battery. Put a simple button to select which drive to boot from. Thus, I can have Mac OSX on drive 1 & Windows Vista on drive 2 and simply choose where to boot from.
Now, which such a setup I can meet all my required task needs AND access the benefits of OSX when my needs allow me too. Now, the ball game changes greatly:
Instead of choosing between (a) & (b), where (b) is an unjustifiable expense for most people:
a) $1,500 for PC laptop to perform necessary tasks
b) $5,500 for PC laptop to perform necessary tasks and Mac laptop to take advantage of benefits
I can choose (c)
c) $4,000 for a dual-boot laptop that allows me to perform all necessary tasks and take advantage of additional Mac benefits.
Sure it is more expensive but my needs are met, along with added benefits. Now, it becomes justifiable.
"Macs include most of the things you'd have to add to a PC (like sound cards, bluetooth and WIFI)."
Scalvert, I haven't seen a standard PC (as opposed to a build-it yourself bare-bones kit) without a sound card in oh....10 yrs. ;-)
WiFi is standard on nearly all notebooks and quite a few desktops too. Bluetooth is not. I'll admit that. But Bluetooth didn't build a big following in the PC world. And will likely be moot soon with the new WUSB.
"Windows XP"
My only serious problem and it required me to blow out my whole system. I filled up my hard drive. And upgraded my 40gig to a 100gig.
I had a few issues with Norton/McAfee. I've had very little spyware and no virus issues.
Except, of course, get a two+ button mouse - one mouse button is absurd.
Laptops, laptops, laptops,.....
I will never buy a desktop again. The only desk based unit I will buy will be a "server" system. |
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01/11/2006 12:17:27 PM · #52 |
Please, don't get me wrong. I'm very supportive of Mac. I like a lot about them. Just as a software developer Mac doesn't cut it as a platform.
And yet, I'd love to tap Mac's A/V side. So I am really excited and just waiting for the dual hard drive two-button moused 17" Tit book from Mac. |
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01/11/2006 12:34:29 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Macs historically are great for A/V applications and have an abundance. But when it comes down to office and business productivity applications there has been a dearth of applications. |
Except for Microsoft Office Suite, the Mac version of which has been better than the Windows version for many years.
Message edited by author 2006-01-11 12:34:46. |
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01/11/2006 12:39:04 PM · #54 |
I used some macs back in the early 90's with some nice A3 screens (drop dead expensive at the time). As I was an os/2 network admin back then I always remember the second mac we bought and how it plugged into the first one and the drives were sharable in a few seconds. I think apple has always been more concerned about the experience and this has helped the software a lot, while they were paranoid about the hardware and this has hurt them (no generics e.t.c.).
The problem for me (and I suspect a few people) is that I need a full M$ office suite for the swapping from work/home. I also could not justify the price of the macs over cheap window$ (luckly I have Linux to relieve some of the insanity but still use windows a lot cause none of the wine type stuff works well enough - I also have no idea why the interface co-ops on Linux keep delivering nothing useful).
The other big issue is the cost of replacing software - maybe more than the hardware now days - and the cost of learning the packages that are not the same due to lack of availability.
Hopefullly I can get off the bug filled windows environment at some point but that is not likely given how long this has been a problem (to be honest XP is MUCH better than the other windows platforms - maybe in a version or two it might be acceptable).
I still don't understand why the settelment with M$ did not involve them supporting a CURRENT version of office for both macs and Linux (or maybe any OS with more than x% share of the market as things change). Having the same office suites would allow more people to move. Star/Open office is a start in that direction but as far as I know it's not mac based and the last time I looked it was not quite compatiable which turned me off.
But then, I remember when computers ran off floppy drives. I never used punch cards but I started work when people still had them at their desks :-) |
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01/11/2006 12:43:59 PM · #55 |
"Except for Microsoft Office Suite, the Mac version of which has been better than the Windows version for many years."
Let me think....when I owned my Mac there was ClarisWorks (commonly referred to by all of us as ClarisDoesn'tWork).
Microsoft Office for Mac, wasn't available. But for whatever reason and I could be mistaken. But I do not believe it included MS-Access. Which is really the kingpin of business productivity apps. There are some decent alternative Word Processors, Spreadsheets, etc.
I myself always preferred Wordperfect to Word. I've never like Word, or Excel. But Access has very few rivals.
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01/11/2006 12:55:42 PM · #56 |
I use OpenOffice on both Mac and Windows. I'm not a power user by any means, but I have had no MS Office compatibility issues and the cost (approx $0) was not prohibitive. But
Originally posted by theSaj:
... But I do not believe it included MS-Access. Which is really the kingpin of business productivity apps. ... Access has very few rivals. |
is absolutely true. It's like the dark side of the force - it is so quick, so easy - If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will...
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01/11/2006 01:03:53 PM · #57 |
Since I worked in desktop publishing I didn't care if it had Access -- we had FoxPro and FileMakerPro for making relational databases, and I have a copy of a database program called RecordHolderPlus which will run on a Mac Plus (that's one of those 20 year-old machines) -- I know a private high school which has used it for years.
The old argument used to be not that any type of program wasn't available on the Mac platform, it was that you had so many more choices with Windows. Well, that's important maybe for games, but I only need one calendar program which works ... |
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01/11/2006 01:13:59 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
Originally posted by jazzmik:
um, the first mac was released in 1984 |
But there were apples before macs you know. ;o) |
Oh, I know. I had an Apple IIe, then an Apple IIc (which, come to think of it, I still have.)
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01/11/2006 01:19:50 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by joebok:
I use OpenOffice on both Mac and Windows. I'm not a power user by any means, but I have had no MS Office compatibility issues and the cost (approx $0) was not prohibitive. |
Cool - It is on the mac, learn something every day. Yeah, You cannot beat the cost of Open Office :-)
The stuff I have to edit has a lot of funky stuff that I found did not work correctly [imbedded & linked objects, versioning, Visio pictures, lotsa numbering, cross references, lot of lookup type functions in excel e.t.c.]. Access is less of an issue to me (I am mostly in the non-M$ DB world, so it's just 'external data' to my spreadsheets) but it's part of the problem for a lot of people. |
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01/11/2006 01:29:22 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by joebok:
I use OpenOffice on both Mac and Windows. I'm not a power user by any means, but I have had no MS Office compatibility issues and the cost (approx $0) was not prohibitive. But
Originally posted by theSaj:
... But I do not believe it included MS-Access. Which is really the kingpin of business productivity apps. ... Access has very few rivals. |
is absolutely true. It's like the dark side of the force - it is so quick, so easy - If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will... |
Actually, FileMaker has a larger user base than Access (although not a larger install base) |
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01/11/2006 01:37:42 PM · #61 |
| Wait, let me get this straight....There is a Word-like app for Mac that is free? Let me know. |
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01/11/2006 01:40:56 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Wait, let me get this straight....There is a Word-like app for Mac that is free? Let me know. |
//www.openoffice.org/ |
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01/11/2006 02:03:44 PM · #63 |
Why not go to Download.com and hit the "Mac" tab and explore around a bit.
Not to mention that if you just have to have some PC app, I'm pretty sure that the complete Office Suite for Mac OS X comes with Virtual PC, so you can run Windows (in emulation) on the same box.
Plus, remember that Macs come prepackaged with pretty sophisticated software for editing words, images, music, and DVD's -- you have a complete audio/video/graphics production studio pre-loaded ... surely that's part of the price difference -- not just the hardware. |
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01/11/2006 02:08:12 PM · #64 |
This is just my opinion but............
I have used Mac's in work on and off over the years, but have always used a PC at home for work and gaming/surfing etc.
I will concede that it used to be the case that PC's were prone to crashing (although I never had the problems some have had) but I still think the PC is the way to go.
I hate getting ripped off for a start, and the fact is that you can get an absolute ninja machine and a copy of Photoshop CS2 for the price you pay for a good Mac.
The other consideration is that the vast majority of people and offices use PC rather than Mac so I stick to the PC for ease of compatibility etc.
A pal of mine has a really nice Mac and I have used it a little, but compared to my PC is seems to chug when running the more intensive filters etc in Photoshop CS2 (I am not sure what Mac he has, but its no mare that 6 months old) My PC is a Athlon 3.7Ghz with 2 gig of ram and an okay Gfx card and I paid 450 quid for the system. His Mac cost almost 4-5 times as much as my PC.
I have a good monitor, calibrated with a spyder 2 PRO and all in all a sweet setup that has more oomph than the newer Macs, and I can use it to play games if the mood takes me (am a bigtime Flight Sim fan)
You also have to take into account that with a fully updated version of XP my system is rock solid.
If you have money to burn and want a slow machine for the money on which your restricted to office applications go for a Mac, if you want a ninja machine that you can use for anything you choose that costs half the price get yourself a PC.
I just bought a new notebook for £750 and that has more power than the average apple (3Ghz processor, 1gig ram, wireless enabled & all the other trimmings) |
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01/11/2006 02:08:31 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
There is a Word-like app for Mac that is free? Let me know. |
Even TextEdit can open and save Word documents.
Originally posted by theSaj:
And for that reason, dropping $4,000 on a 17" Mac Powerbook would merely be a recreational expense. Logic dictates that when I can spend $1,500 on a 17" Toshiba PC and perform all my necessary tasks that it is wiser for me to stay with PC for $1,500 and accomplish all my needs than spend $4,000 on a Mac and not be able to perform all my required tasks and have to spend another $1,500 on a Toshiba for a total of $5,500 vs $1,500. BIG DIFFERENCE |
Um... where the heck did you get $4000 from? The list price for Apple's 17" Powerbook is $2499, which includes a stunning widescreen display, 120Gb 5400rpm HD, DVD-RW, 128mb video with DVI output, digital optical audio, gigabit ethernet, airport and bluetooth, a backlit keyboard, scrolling trackpad and Firewire 800 in a form that's thinner and lighter than most comparable PC laptops. Most of those features are either optional or unavailable on the Toshiba.
Virtual PC will probably handle your other "needs" without buying a second laptop. If you want another drive, you can partition the 120Gb or add a 2.5" portable. Apple has been slower to introduce two button mice because the OS allows access to most functions with one button- there simply isn't as great a need to access alternate functions.
Message edited by author 2006-01-11 14:10:26. |
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01/11/2006 02:29:53 PM · #66 |
Windows is for novice amateur photographer, mac is for expert and up
.. ice
Originally posted by welcher:
I'm a long-time Windows user who never, ever has any problems. No lock ups, crashes, hangs, or viruses. But I'd LOVE to Switch to the Mac, cause OSX is just so nice and shiney.
But when a have to pay almost 2x for equivilent power, it's really hard to justify. I was hoping this switch to Intel might make Apple consider lowering their prices, but it doesn't look like they will.
Bummer. |
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01/11/2006 02:45:17 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Apple has been slower to introduce two button mice because the OS allows access to most functions with one button- there simply isn't as great a need to access alternate functions. |
Even though I now have two button mice on my macs at home I still use the control click method instead of the right button. Just habit I guess. But when I get on my one button mouse at work I sure miss the scroll button, especially on long forum posts. |
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01/11/2006 02:51:19 PM · #68 |
uh ohhh... looks like another inocent thread has turned into a "MAC User vs. PC user" putdown contest. I am happy for all the MAC users that you have found your greener pasture and Im also happy for the PC users who have "saved thousands".
Anyone for a Nikon vs. Canon discussion?
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01/11/2006 02:52:49 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by dustinwilson:
uh ohhh... looks like another inocent thread has turned into a "MAC User vs. PC user" putdown contest. I am happy for all the MAC users that you have found your greener pasture and Im also happy for the PC users who have "saved thousands".
Anyone for a Nikon vs. Canon discussion? |
Compare a Mac to an Alienware machine. About the same price and performance.
G5 quad vs Alienware desktop
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01/11/2006 03:32:58 PM · #70 |
MacBook Pro
"Since I worked in desktop publishing I didn't care if it had Access"
Exactly, but not everyone is a desktop publisher. Yes, FileMakerPro will allow for a relational database. However, there is something called the "business world". And for that, Access is quite common.
It's not that you can't do the task on a Mac. But the fact of the matter is often, it is a Microsoft based tool that everyone is using. So yes, you can choose to be incompatible in-house. But if you have need to be interactive in the business world, you can't make such choices.
Um... where the heck did you get $4000 from?
When I considered said purchase a while back, they were asking $3,999 for the 17" Powerbook that I was looking at.
"Most of those features are either optional or unavailable on the Toshiba."
My Toshiba P25 which is now going on it's third year:
- P4/2.4ghz
- 512mb RAM
- 40gig drive
- WiFi
- DVD/CD-RW (though DVD-RW was in different variant)
- 32mg GeForce (64mg was available)
- 10/100 Ethernet
- Scrolling trackpad
- Firewire
- 17" screen (same as Apples)
------------------------
Total price? $1,450 (that was 2-3 yrs ago) and when I looked at the 17" Titanium notebook at CompUSA they wanted $3,999.
Virtual PC may be sufficient for some tasks. But a lot of the crud I do pushes machines without doing emulation.
"Apple has been slower to introduce two button mice because the OS allows access to most functions with one button- there simply isn't as great a need to access alternate functions."
How so? I simply love being able to right-click and file and select "Add to ZIP" or "Zip and email". Not that Mac can't do that with their one button mouse. But I hate the idea of having to click'n'hold.
It's simply nice to have the option...
I think the two-button Mac Notebook is coming soon though... |
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01/11/2006 03:39:53 PM · #71 |
I don't want to sound dismissive, but the reason I started this thread was more for the people out there who don't have a Mac, are considering it, and wanted a first-timers impression. Not really ones who could go on all day about the benefits of PC's or Mac's. I know, I am idealistic, and everyone is saying great things, but I feel as someone who has just transfered to a Mac (for good hopefully) from a life of PC's....well, hopefully offer a fresh opinion.
Thanks for the advice on Word-like apps. I do know of textedit. Anyone want to throw up the link to the cnet-macintosh page or download page. I'd appreciate it. |
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01/11/2006 03:44:18 PM · #72 |
I am one who is actually quite interested in moving a large portion of my activity over to Mac.
I am just troubled by certain considerations. I am largely hoping this switch to Intel processors will allow me to overcome.
I'd be overjoyed to hear that these new Mac laptops have two button trackpads, and can dual-boot Windows. If so, my next PC might be Mac.
;)
I was mostly addressing the fact when Mac users exclaim "I don't understand why anyone wouldn't switch..." and providing, hopefully, some reasons to understand why some do not or cannot. |
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01/11/2006 04:06:03 PM · #73 |
A while back isn't a valid comparison to now, especially in the computer world. In Sept 2003, Apple's 17" Powerbook had an 80GB HD, next generation WiFi, slot-loading DVD burner (not just a combo drive), AGP 4X 64Mb video with DVI out, 10/100/1000 Ethernet, scrolling trackpad, Firewire 800, backlit keyboard, and Bluetooth for a list price of $3299. It's also thinner, lighter, and about 50% faster than a Pentium-based laptop in Photoshop. Sure, it was more expensive, but you get what you pay for.
Originally posted by theSaj:
I simply love being able to right-click and file and select "Add to ZIP" or "Zip and email". Not that Mac can't do that with their one button mouse. |
That (and much more) are a piece of cake thanks to AppleScript. |
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01/11/2006 04:07:32 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Anyone want to throw up the link to the cnet-macintosh page or download page. |
You can find anything you need at versiontracker. |
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01/11/2006 04:18:52 PM · #75 |
| thanks scalvert..really are dependable you know that don't you... |
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