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Showing posts 26 - 45 of 45, (reverse)
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 12/23/2005 01:08:22 AM · #26
Off to make some screen shots.
:) Back in a minute.
 12/23/2005 01:08:33 AM · #27
there is no "gradient" Adjustment Layer. when you apply an Adjustment Layer, it automatically distributes whatever effect you've selected uniformly over the entire image with an image mask. as long as you don't touch that mask, you're fine.

generalE's comment was that you can apply the adjustment uniformly, but cannot select portions of a photo and edit those bits alone. you must make the adjustments to the ENTIRE image.

i hope that clarifies. i'm late and i'm tired. i'm probably not making much sense.
 12/23/2005 01:11:50 AM · #28
to clarify one more thing (told you i'm tired), there IS a gradient map adjustment layer, but it is for purposes other than what are being discussed here.
 12/23/2005 01:17:31 AM · #29
Originally posted by muckpond:
there is no "gradient" Adjustment Layer. when you apply an Adjustment Layer, it automatically distributes whatever effect you've selected uniformly over the entire image with an image mask. as long as you don't touch that mask, you're fine.

generalE's comment was that you can apply the adjustment uniformly, but cannot select portions of a photo and edit those bits alone. you must make the adjustments to the ENTIRE image.

i hope that clarifies. i'm late and i'm tired. i'm probably not making much sense.


This is from the Adobe PSCS2 Help desk -

Adjustment and fill layer types
For complete information on options for each adjustment layer type, search for that adjustment in Photoshop Help.
Solid Color Specify a color.

Gradient Click the gradient to display the Gradient Editor, or click the inverted arrow and choose a gradient from the pop‑up palette. Set additional options if desired. Style specifies the shape of the gradient. Angle specifies the angle at which the gradient is applied. Scale changes the size of the gradient. Reverse flips the orientation of the gradient. Dither reduces banding by applying dithering to the gradient. Align With Layer uses the bounding box of the layer to calculate the gradient fill. You can drag in the image window to move the center of the gradient.[b]

This is where the confusion lies for people who haven't read the rules properly or for beginners....it states that the gradient is an adjustment layer....it is only when you read further in the rules that you can understand the slight difference of the wording.

That is why I would like to see the wording changed.

Judi[b]
 12/23/2005 01:23:57 AM · #30
Okay, I will use the screen shotsbelow to indicate the way I've understood the responses so far.

As I understand it, Muckpond indicated that the image in question for DQ in this thread had more than one layer with pixel data, one of which had a gradient applied to it (whether or not the gradient was applied using the gradient tool or a gradient adjutment layer is irrelevant because ANY image with more than one layer containing pixel data would be disqualified). As I understand it, that would look like this in the layers palette:


Muckpond also said that all Adjustment layers (capital A) would be allowable since the adjustment is being made to the entire layer (as long as the attached mask is not edited). This would be an example of applying a gradient with an Adjustment layer (no pixel data):


Lastly, muckpond (really not picking on you :)) said "there is no "gradient" Adjustment Layer. when you apply an Adjustment Layer, it automatically distributes whatever effect you've selected uniformly over the entire image with an image mask. as long as you don't touch that mask, you're fine."

The first sentence is incorrect. There IS a gradient Adjustment level (not to be confused with the Gradient Map). Here's a pic:


Just really striving for clarification. Thanks for trying to work through it with me.

12/23/2005 01:27:37 AM · #31
Just Married...that is exactly what I was trying to say too. All I used (illegally that is, as I have learnt) was an Adjustment Gradient Layer in radial. I used black/transparent. Therefore it only darkened the edges. I can understand what they are saying about darkening selected areas so to speak....so I am not arguing that.

But I do want them to change the rules wording to stop this sort of confusion for everyone. It is a very fine line between them all. When they say Adjustment Layers are allowed and then they say certain ones aren't. They do describe what AL's aren't allowed but not specifically by name. And that is what I want stipulated.

So thanks for the screenshots...I hope it makes it clearer for everyone.

Judi
 12/23/2005 01:28:37 AM · #32
Originally posted by Judi:
This is where the confusion lies for people who haven't read the rules properly or for beginners....it states that the gradient is an adjustment layer....it is only when you read further in the rules that you can understand the slight difference of the wording.

Judi

No, it doesn't. The entire following paragraph describes BOTH "Adjustment and fill layer types" -- not good writing, but there it is. The gradient they describe clearly contains pixels, which we DO specifically state are prohibited in the rules.

What they are describing is how to use a FILL layer as a MASK to control the (location of the) effect of an Adjustment Layer. See also alpha channel, selection (saving a)

Message edited by author 2005-12-23 01:30:48.
 12/23/2005 01:31:35 AM · #33
Originally posted by just-married:

The first sentence is incorrect. There IS a gradient Adjustment level (not to be confused with the Gradient Map). Here's a pic:


Just really striving for clarification. Thanks for trying to work through it with me.


This is a gradient layer (or fill layer), not an adjustment layer.
 12/23/2005 01:34:16 AM · #34
Just for clarification sake, would it be clear to state that if the background layer is not visible (no 'eye' next to it) and any pixels at all show on the screen, you've got more than just adjustment layers -- but if nothing shows, you've just got adjustment layers and are legal?

David
 12/23/2005 01:36:13 AM · #35
Yep, I stand corrected and I thank you for the clarification. I had learned that anything added by way of that half black/half white circle on the layers palette was an adjustment layer.

This from Adobe:


Adjustment and fill layers A. Adjustment layer confined to Log home layer only B. Layer thumbnail C. Fill layer affecting all layers below it D. Layer mask

So then, my last question before bowing out of the thread is:
Are Fill Layers addressed at all in the rules?

12/23/2005 01:37:35 AM · #36
Originally posted by Britannica:
Just for clarification sake, would it be clear to state that if the background layer is not visible (no 'eye' next to it) and any pixels at all show on the screen, you've got more than just adjustment layers -- but if nothing shows, you've just got adjustment layers and are legal?

David


That would make sense to me.
 12/23/2005 01:39:19 AM · #37
Originally posted by just-married:

Are Fill Layers addressed at all in the rules?


Yes, they are not allowed in basic.

All other types of layers (including those that contain pixel data or masks) and all other blending methods (modes) are prohibited.
 12/23/2005 01:42:40 AM · #38
Originally posted by Britannica:
Just for clarification sake, would it be clear to state that if the background layer is not visible (no 'eye' next to it) and any pixels at all show on the screen, you've got more than just adjustment layers -- but if nothing shows, you've just got adjustment layers and are legal?

David

No, I don't think I'd say that necessarily. An "adjustment that "hides" its mask within dialog box settings might not have "visible" pixels, and yet exert a selective effect.

Look at the screenshots posted. If you look in the layer pallette preview, you can see the gradient mask right there. That shows how the effect will be applied in some locations and not in others. I don't care whether or not you can "see" those pixels in the main screen.

I suggest you simply apply the fundamental criteria I stated before:

-- if whether the adjustment affects a pixel is determined by the pixels physical location within the image, you can't use it (in Basic Editing).

-- if the adjustment affects equally all pixels of a given color value, then it should be legal in Basic.
 12/23/2005 01:43:13 AM · #39
So then, my personal conclusion would be that it IS covered in the rules (though I wouldn't be opposed to adding verbage similar to what David suggested). Jusi, it's a shame that you had to learn about your editing tool by way of a DQ, but I wanted to thank you for starting the thread because I and hopefully others have been able to learn a little more about the appropriate names of the tools we're using in PS as a result.

I'm out.
Thanks to all of you for your patience with me.
 12/23/2005 01:44:57 AM · #40
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Britannica:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
... But a (software) filter which applies its effect through a gradient is not legal for Basic Editing, regardless of whether you select the gradient manually or let the programmers do it for you. ...

Not trying to instigate anything, but since it doesn't matter if I make the selection or the programmers do -- why is shadow/highlight legal?
David

Because Shadow/Highlight, Curves, Levels, Hue/Saturation, Selective Color, and all similar Adjustments (whether in a Layer or not), afftect pixels based on their color value.

Using this Gradient tool -- or any selection/mask/alpha channel -- rather effects pixels based on their physical location within the image. That's what makes it "selective" editing, even though the mask may be pre-configured in software.

You are allowed to make all pixels which are 35% gray into 28% gray. You are not allowed to make all pixels in the upper half of the photo 5% lighter than those in the lower half (to use a crude example).

Got it. The gradient layer 'selects' pixels to be adjusted, but because it selects them by location instead of original value, it is illegal. Thank you.

Although, given this, I'm more confused than before why most (all?) of the SC that responded to my query about the 'blend if' option were against it? But, that is a matter for another thread ... and has already been discussed there. ;)

David
 12/23/2005 01:47:49 AM · #41
Originally posted by just-married:
So then, my personal conclusion would be that it IS covered in the rules (though I wouldn't be opposed to adding verbage similar to what David suggested). Jusi, it's a shame that you had to learn about your editing tool by way of a DQ, but I wanted to thank you for starting the thread because I and hopefully others have been able to learn a little more about the appropriate names of the tools we're using in PS as a result.

I'm out.
Thanks to all of you for your patience with me.


No problems. That is why I started this thread...to help others learn from my mistake.

Judi
 12/23/2005 01:49:51 AM · #42
With this much discussion and some frequency of this same discussion, it seems apparent to me that spending time explaining and expanding on the rules would be time better spent than re-explaining it in the forums each week.

My suggestion would be a compromise of sorts - simplify the rules to the point where they don't require much explanation (i.e. NO layers in basic) and give more detailed examples or explanations if necessary in the rules description.

That's about all I have to offer. I rarely use adjustment layers, but like the other person who mentioned it, I don't win ribbons either. ;-)

Message edited by author 2005-12-23 02:41:52.
 12/23/2005 01:52:06 AM · #43
Originally posted by GeneralE:
An "adjustment that "hides" its mask within dialog box settings might not have "visible" pixels, and yet exert a selective effect.

...

I suggest you simply apply the fundamental criteria I stated before:

-- if whether the adjustment affects a pixel is determined by the pixels physical location within the image, you can't use it (in Basic Editing).

-- if the adjustment affects equally all pixels of a given color value, then it should be legal in Basic.


heehee I know I said I was leaving, but this generated more questions for me.

It seems to me that only the FILL layers make adjustments based on physical location. I just did a test adding every adjustment layer, and none of them added pixels to their layers.

Can you give me an example of an adjustment layer that would be prohibited because of it affecting only physical areas of the photo?

And if that is the case, then perhaps your verbage rather than David's should be added to the rules. In any case, if there is any qualifier on which adjustment layers can be used, it is unfair for those qualifying statements not to be listed directly in the rules.
 12/23/2005 02:06:11 AM · #44
An Adjustment layer can be used in conjunction with a fill layer to create a mask for the adjustment. Fill layers don't "make adjustments" but rather control where the effect is applied.

Apparently, some such adjustments incorporate that masking data within its settings, rather than as a separately-visible adjustment layer.

AFAIK, all (Photoshop) adjustment layers, if not used in conjunction with a mask or the equivalent, would be legal -- that's why we say so in the rules. Other programs (e.g. Picassa) seem to introduce tools which use a combination of Photoshop layers.

Message edited by author 2005-12-23 02:08:19.
 12/23/2005 02:26:20 AM · #45
I think forums are much better place to learn about rules.

Message edited by author 2005-12-23 02:30:41.
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