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12/21/2005 06:57:51 PM · #26 |
Well, I am all for no descriptions.
Had "Ooops" just had Ooops with no description, I think it would have been better. I mean, I am usually concerned with what to enter via reading the description. I always want to know what the majority THINKS it says and how they interpret it so that I can feel better about my own entry. Without the descriptions, it will pretty much be left to everyone's individual taste, and no arguments back and forth. Sure, some might ask "hey, what do you think it means", and they might discuss that, but still, any interpretation goes. As it stands now we have others saying "no, it means this and not that" as in the cheese photo where I was adament that it meant literal cheese, and some were adament it meant smiles. Arguments lead to locked threads. Why not just have it be open?
No one is saying it has to be free study. The name of the challenge would define what it is. "Ooops", "Patterns", "Candlelight", etc. Speaking of Candlelight, if it wasn't for the description which again I took literal as in "use candlelight", I may have voted better for those that didn't actually have a candle in the photo. When it says "use" this or that, like use cheese, I tend to not give way for other interpretations in my voting process.
Yup, more creativity and less arguing is what I see coming from leaving out the descriptions, and let the votes fall where they may.
Rose
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12/21/2005 07:03:39 PM · #27 |
Rose, I see it differently.
With less guidance, you will only have an even bigger range of interpretations and even more chance to be "wrong" in people's eyes.
At least when the rules are defined, it is up to us to decide if we want to follow them or not. |
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12/21/2005 07:11:59 PM · #28 |
Rose, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
If one takes the word "Pattern" for example, I remain confident that there exist at least a dozen definitions of the word. Given that scenario, would it not make more sense to streamline the process to have the audience have their photos fall within defined boundaries.
If I take a photo of a dozen or so cows that from my perspective look like they are forming a clover leaf... would it follow that I am within the realm of pattern.
We can argue this till the "cows come home" but the fact is that from my perspective it takes a great deal more creativity to think of, set up, and create an image where there are certain restrictions.... otherwise everything is left to individual interpretations.
Ray
Message edited by author 2005-12-21 19:13:22. |
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12/21/2005 07:30:09 PM · #29 |
I understand what you are both saying, (Beetle and RayEthier), but it doesn't seem you are making your point well. Yes, I would consider cows in the shape of a clover leaf to be a pattern, and I would have scored it highly for catching that anomoly! LOL.....
So, here we have our description of Patterns:
Take a photograph where patterns grab the viewer's attention
Now, why wouldn't cows in the form of a clover leaf catch the viewers attention? The first thing I thought of was fabric patterns, and I was like "yuck". The description doesn't really give the viewer any defined view point. It is basically just saying "use a pattern and hope you catch the viewers attention with it". Well, I could have gotten that from the word itself, and to catch the viewers attention? That is something I always try to do, as I am sure any serious entrant does. LOL...So I really don't see the why-for in descriptions of this sort. It just is not explicit, so it will be left open and not streamlined to the reader.
We saw it in cheese. We saw it in a few others recently where there were interpretations that actually did not meet the expectations that the description was supposed to streamline. I say if you want to really streamline the process, you have to be more explicit.
Had I just read the word Ooops (and I didn't know there was a first challenge cause I thought those were exclamations and not numeral numbers at the end of Ooops!II LOL..), the first thing that would have come to my mind was "a mistake". Photograph a mistake. Now, seeing how this is a photography site, I would have first thought the mistake would have to be in the contrast, lighting, a blurry photo, etc. When I viewed the previous Ooops challenge, I saw it was a whole different scenario. So yeah, in that instance, a lot of us would have had boring shots if we did it according to my thinking. However, what does the description say? It says "Photograph something gone wrong". So still, WHERE is the streamline in that? I STILL had to ask if it meant along the lines of photography, in life, or whathaveyou.
So, I say if you really want the descriptions to remain, you have to make them "descriptions for dummies", and really spell them out so it will alleviate the questions and the arguments. I really don't care eihter way - if they stay or go. But if they must stay, more defining is needed IMO.
Rose
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12/21/2005 07:56:19 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by mavrik:
It's been too much for a few years now though. |
What's been too much? I'm not sure I understand your comment... |
You said you "don't think it's asking too much" for people to have to read the description. Clearly a TON of people don't read them every week, for years now.
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12/21/2005 07:58:08 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by mavrik:
It's been too much for a few years now though. |
What's been too much? I'm not sure I understand your comment... |
You said you "don't think it's asking too much" for people to have to read the description. Clearly a TON of people don't read them every week, for years now. |
Like I said, get a verification screen before someone can go vote, and then you make absolutely sure that they at least should have read it, and were stopped to make sure they did.
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12/21/2005 08:03:01 PM · #32 |
| I believe it takes much more creativity to take a good shot following the challenge details. Why are some people so against this? If it says "take a picture between 4 and 5 AM"--why not JUST DO IT? If it says "use cheese" why not USE CHEESE? If it says to portray a phobia and make others feel the fear, why show the absence of a phobia? I really DO NOT UNDERSTAND why some people have such a problem with meeting a challenge. And I do not mean those who try, or simply misunderstand. I am referring to those who see the challenge details, then simply refuse to use them. (And I do feel cheated having given 10's to shots not taken between 4 and 5 AM. I wish that had been a special rule and that photos not taken in that hour could be DQ'd) |
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12/21/2005 08:17:50 PM · #33 |
If the descriptions are very specific then the photographer is judged regarding how well they can understand, comprehend, and creativly "follow directions".
If the descriptions are nonexistant or vauge the person is judged by how well they can "use their camera".
It's possible that we all are favoring one or the other depending on our strengths. I think the owners of great equipment favor the "less descriptive" challenges because they can take technically higher quality shots and those with cheaper cameras favor the descriptive ones more so as to give them an edge against the photogs with the dslrs. I'm sure there are those that don't fall into either catagory, there always are.
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12/21/2005 08:52:39 PM · #34 |
You don't have to read the description to enter. No one is holding a gun to your head making you read it. For that matter, you don't have to look at any of the pictures you take for the challenge. You don't have to look at your entry. You don't have to obsess over the update button all week. You don't have to enter period. If a couple of sentences are going to throw you off that much, maybe you should just lie down and rest for a spell, maybe take a nice nap, have a Valium or a drink, maybe both.
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12/21/2005 08:56:31 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You don't have to read the description to enter. No one is holding a gun to your head making you read it. For that matter, you don't have to look at any of the pictures you take for the challenge. You don't have to look at your entry. You don't have to obsess over the update button all week. You don't have to enter period. If a couple of sentences are going to throw you off that much, maybe you should just lie down and rest for a spell, maybe take a nice nap, have a Valium or a drink, maybe both. |
Exactly!
Why do this: 
(Of course, this could all be solved by No Challenge Titles---right?) |
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12/21/2005 09:00:29 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You don't have to read the description to enter. No one is holding a gun to your head making you read it. For that matter, you don't have to look at any of the pictures you take for the challenge. You don't have to look at your entry. You don't have to obsess over the update button all week. You don't have to enter period. If a couple of sentences are going to throw you off that much, maybe you should just lie down and rest for a spell, maybe take a nice nap, have a Valium or a drink, maybe both. |
Sounds like Spazmo is spazzing. LOL.....A little of your own medicine perhaps? Nap, chill pill? :)
I'm off now to watch the finale of Martha Stewart The Apprentice myself. My entries are all in, and I'm perfectly happy. Now if only my reality shows weren't ending, I could lay off the chill pills myself! LOL....
Rose
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12/21/2005 09:05:21 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
If it says "use cheese" why not USE CHEESE? |
cheese
1. (n) An important person. Often used in the phrase big cheese.
2. (n) a solid food prepared from the pressed curd of milk
3. (tr.v) To look out. Often used in the imperative.
4. (tr.v) To get away fast; get going. Often used in the imperative.
5. (n) A photographic cliche saying to elicit a smile from the subject.
So you're saying 31 out of 110ish shots didn't meet the challenge? That's how many a fellow DNMC'er gave the same "dnmc" comment to - right psychephylax?
If 1/3 of the entries disagree with your interpretation, there's a chance you may be being too narrow.
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12/21/2005 09:29:30 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I really DO NOT UNDERSTAND why some people have such a problem with meeting a challenge. |
It's called following the directions, and many do not have a clue about that - jsut ask how many here read their camera manual before using the camera?
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12/21/2005 09:39:34 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I really DO NOT UNDERSTAND why some people have such a problem with meeting a challenge. |
It's called following the directions, and many do not have a clue about that - jsut ask how many here read their camera manual before using the camera? |
SURVEY! WE NEED A SURVEY!
1. Did you read the entire manual while the batteries were charging. (y/n)
2. Do you carry the manual with you wherever you go? (y/n)
3. Do you leave your camera "alone" at any point during the day? (If yes, please explain.)
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12/21/2005 09:51:25 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
I think it's sorta become a generalized term Coolhar, like the Soup Nazi from Seinfeld. |
Yup,
We have a guy in a local Camera Store known throughout San Diego as the Camera Nazi... Go into the store with a P&S and ask for an accessory... "Point and Shoot...no accessories for you...now you get out of my store"
Any San Diegans here know the Store?
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12/27/2005 07:25:54 AM · #41 |
| Hmmm... Mother has no description. I guess we will see how this one goes. |
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12/27/2005 08:30:08 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by jpeters:
What do you think? |
I think people should maybe take the extra 10 seconds and read the descriptions :)
Not to sound harsh, but I really don't think it's asking too much to read 'em. |
I've spent a heck of lot more than 10 seconds trying to figure out what some descriptions mean and how many different ways they can be interpreted....how people would box things in...or out.
There is such a things as a "broad definition"...if well thought out and presented clearly would open things up and allow for more creativity.
I find find that some (not all) of the descriptions can twist things up a bit...
With all due respect and no insult intended, it sometimes boils down to bad authoring...in my opinion. |
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12/27/2005 03:39:01 PM · #43 |
Oh oh, its BEAUTIFULL. Mother ... mother has no description... the DNMC gastapo is twitching... they are confused... there is nothing to not meet the challenge WITH, it either represents MOTHER or it doesnt. I can see them... holding thier heads and rocking... how do I vote? You mean I need to THINK? I need to vote for artistic merit too? Oh no, no!!!!!
bwahahaha. ***rubs hands together*** oh, oh it will be so much more... it begins... it begins my friends... let your minds stretch and find the wind...
oh, yes it is beautifull. :) |
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12/27/2005 04:18:20 PM · #44 |
| See the problem you created....just read the confusion from the "Mother" thread! |
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12/27/2005 04:18:50 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by notesinstones:
Oh oh, its BEAUTIFULL. Mother ... mother has no description... the DNMC gastapo is twitching... they are confused... there is nothing to not meet the challenge WITH, it either represents MOTHER or it doesnt. I can see them... holding thier heads and rocking... how do I vote? You mean I need to THINK? I need to vote for artistic merit too? Oh no, no!!!!!
bwahahaha. ***rubs hands together*** oh, oh it will be so much more... it begins... it begins my friends... let your minds stretch and find the wind...
oh, yes it is beautifull. :) |
Sadly, it would seem that you have confused the issue in this instance. The DNMC nazis as you call them will not encounter any problems whatsoever with this challenge. The ability to think when constraints are in place seem to affect some people who feel (justifiabliy or not) that their creative juices are being restricted.
I for one am one of the DNMC Gestapo you allude to, and I can assure you that I am not twitching in the least... if anything I am ever so eager to view the results of this challenge. Representing MOTHER should be an interesting concept, and I can imagine the pletora of images we will be provided with.
One thing I do find amusing is the sparsety of submissions to date... No restrictions and so little input to date....Good lord,,,where pray tell are all the "Out of the box" thinkers.
I can only hope that the quality of the photos submitted leaves me in absolute awe... and I fully expect to be mesnerized by the submissions of the creative genuises that have been stifled by the presence of "guidelines".... anything short of that would be a travesty.
If what you seem to advocate is indeed true, then this challenge should be the highest scoring ever.
The very best of luck to all who enter, and rest assured that even the DNMC gestapo can vote in a fair and equitable manner.
Ray |
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12/27/2005 04:24:00 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by jpeters:
Maybe this has been suggested before (I couldn't find it though), but maybe we could abolish challenge descriptions on most challenges. Obviously, challenges such as the current "Username" challenge, a description is necessary, but for "Shallow Depth of Field" and "4-5am" and similar challenges, no description would allow for greater interperetations and fewer complaints from the so-called DNMC Nazis.
What do you think? |
It's recently come to my attention that the description is meaningless :o), so I vote to drop it to save confusion. Might want to drop the title while we are at it, but no matter cause I don't look at it anyway :-)
Can somebody pass some pop-corn please :-) |
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12/27/2005 04:28:30 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I really DO NOT UNDERSTAND why some people have such a problem with meeting a challenge. |
It's called following the directions, and many do not have a clue about that - jsut ask how many here read their camera manual before using the camera? |
SURVEY! WE NEED A SURVEY!
1. Did you read the entire manual while the batteries were charging. (y/n)
2. Do you carry the manual with you wherever you go? (y/n)
3. Do you leave your camera "alone" at any point during the day? (If yes, please explain.) |
I always read the manual cover to cover while the battery is charging. You never know what hidden gems it may carry. |
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12/27/2005 04:41:33 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by megatherian:
[quote=KaDi]
SURVEY! WE NEED A SURVEY!
1. Did you read the entire manual while the batteries were charging. (y/n)
2. Do you carry the manual with you wherever you go? (y/n)
3. Do you leave your camera "alone" at any point during the day? (If yes, please explain.) |
#1 - No... as a matter of fact I don't even open the manual, opting instead to wait for that precise moment in time where everything goes awry, at which point I put into practice the old adage that says: "When all else fails...... READ THE MANUAL"
#2 - Absolutely... to make certain that it is available when the the events described in item #1 occur.
#3 - Yes... sorry, I cannot divulge this secret... but if you read your manual from cover to cover, you will discover the answer in there. I must however warn you that the clues are somewhat "cryptic" and may not "jump out at you" at first glance.
I do hope my answers to your survey will prove beneficial.
Ray
Message edited by author 2005-12-27 16:42:49. |
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12/27/2005 05:02:11 PM · #49 |
how about banning discussion of current challenges in the forums??
*runs and hides* |
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12/28/2005 04:11:06 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by kirsty_mcn:
how about banning discussion of current challenges in the forums??
*runs and hides* |
What, pray tell, would be the point of a community on on a photographic challenge site that can not discuss the current challenges?
It's the same with banning out-takes (which comes up from time to time), I see no value in restricting what types of images can be put forward for community review at any given time.
The community is in general a seperate entity from the challenges, and works well because it is. The only exception to this seperation that comes to mind is the discouragement of voiding anonymity, which is in place to prevent vote tampering.
David
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