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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> 4 - 5 AM: How many cheated?
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 12/16/2005 09:58:56 AM · #51
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
... I think this refers to the stripping of the EXIF data at time of upload, not at the time of saving the file on your computer.


Thanks. ;^)

...but then that means, to meet this proposal, the EXIF data (all of it I presume) would need to remain with the JPG file submitted for the challange entry. How much space does EXIF data take anyway? Anybody have a ballpark number? Guess I could experiment myself to find out. ;^)
 12/16/2005 10:00:24 AM · #52
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
... I think this refers to the stripping of the EXIF data at time of upload, not at the time of saving the file on your computer.


Thanks. ;^)

...but then that means, to meet this proposal, the EXIF data (all of it I presume) would need to remain with the JPG file submitted for the challange entry. How much space does EXIF data take anyway? Anybody have a ballpark number? Guess I could experiment myself to find out. ;^)


From discussions a while ago I think it takes up between 3 and 4 k.
 12/16/2005 10:06:30 AM · #53
Ok, thats why i didn't enter.... GETING UP THAT EARLY IS OUT OF MY VOCABULARY :)
 12/16/2005 10:07:47 AM · #54
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
I think this refers to the stripping of the EXIF data at time of upload, not at the time of saving the file on your computer.


When you "Save for Web" in Photoshop, the EXIF data is stripped out. I'll bet a good chunk of DPC's population (including me) uses that method to save image entries.
 12/16/2005 10:09:35 AM · #55
Originally posted by skiprow:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Your entry must convince the voters that it was taken between 4 and 5, regardless of whether it actually was. Convince them that your shot looks like a 4-5 am image and you've met the challenge. If they are unconvinced your score will suffer, and rightfully so.

and what a problem this presents for the photographer who creates the 'convincing' image...

is it better to let the viewers enjoy the image as it is, or, in the spirit of this site being an 'educational' site, is it better to do has shannon has done repeatedly, documenting how he convinced us to vote for his images? either way, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. i can hardly imagine what it was like for shannon the week of the nightbulb, the highs of getting great scores and comments, followed by weeks of unmitigated debates and complaints about how he did it.


i guess this will be no different than any other challenges; in the end, there will probably be a handful of people who are going to be upset and vocal about it, and then there will be everyone else.
Personally, I'm glad Shannon shared the info, it was educational to learn how he did it. I think it's always beneficial when image details that are not self-evident are explained. Wish there was more of that here.

It may not be a very good parallel for the situation of scalvert's Nightbulb but for 4:00-5:00 a.m. you could avoid being "damned" by getting up early and taking your entry shot in the prescribed time window and make sure it is convincing to the voters.

If it turns out that all three ribboners were taken in the time window it will preclude a lot of hand-wringing in the post-mortem threads.
12/16/2005 10:13:16 AM · #56
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
... From discussions a while ago I think it takes up between 3 and 4 k.


You're just a fountain of information today! ;^) Thanks again...
 12/16/2005 10:27:14 AM · #57
Originally posted by coolhar:
...you could avoid being "damned" by getting up early and taking your entry shot in the prescribed time window...If it turns out that all three ribboners were taken in the time window it will preclude a lot of hand-wringing


If the photographer set the camera date to 4:30am and took the shot at 8pm, who would know the difference? Without a special rules requirement (which could never be enforced due to the easy workaround I just mentioned), I looked at this as basically a free study... ideally with the goal of communicating a pre-dawn scene.
 12/16/2005 10:30:30 AM · #58
When I was voting on this I had to take into consideration that in different parts of the world the sun may rise at that time. At first I was thinking "what the heck, it's dark at 5AM around here"...then I reconsidered. ;^)

edit to add I don't have an entry in this challenge.

Message edited by author 2005-12-16 10:31:34.
 12/16/2005 10:46:42 AM · #59
Isn't it like someone used all the props and pain to create a picture while someone else just clicked a leaf lying on the road and composed it well enough to make it equally or more appealing.

After all isn't photography all about creating an image that appeals to people, doesn't matter when and where it was clicked as long as it portrays the hour ... I voted based on what I like !

While I did wake up at that ghastly hour to click my picture, freezing, no coffee shops open and everything seemed dead, that is just what I chose to do...
12/16/2005 11:36:14 AM · #60
I think the main issue that's being put forward is that the description said to set the alarm and actually get up at the ghastly hour not just portray the hour. Anyways, these discussions always come up. This challenge description is much more descriptive than most.
 12/16/2005 11:43:40 AM · #61
ahh..
When you put it that way, I do feel I was wrong in assuming that a shot appearing to be taken at 4-5am is justified. Well I will have to go back and rate down all those shots ... still leaves quite a well deserving shots that are definitely taken at that time.
12/16/2005 12:04:29 PM · #62
Originally posted by vikas:
ahh..
When you put it that way, I do feel I was wrong in assuming that a shot appearing to be taken at 4-5am is justified. Well I will have to go back and rate down all those shots ... still leaves quite a well deserving shots that are definitely taken at that time.


You can tell the difference? Remember 5am locally may look different than 5am somewhere else in the world.
 12/16/2005 12:23:27 PM · #63
That̢۪s the trouble I can't, I don't think anyone can... all the indoor shots could have been taken at any time, but that does not mean I will rate them down, there are some really nice indoor shots (couple of them similar to what I thought of doing at first place),

So it comes back to what has been composed and not at what time and I am saved from voting again, good I can just comment on the shots :)
 12/16/2005 02:22:19 PM · #64
Originally posted by scalvert:
If the photographer set the camera date to 4:30am and took the shot at 8pm, who would know the difference?
The photographer would likely be the only one who would know the difference. See the quote in glad2badad's signature.

Originally posted by scalvert:
Without a special rules requirement (which could never be enforced due to the easy workaround I just mentioned), I looked at this as basically a free study... ideally with the goal of communicating a pre-dawn scene.
Why do people get the idea that this challenge is like a free study? It has a topic. And the voters will determine which shots do, or do not, meet that topic just as they always do. If you want a decent score you shouldn't just be submitting the best shot you took during the time period as we do for a free study. Your shot should be one that trys to convince the voters that it was taken between 4 and 5 AM. If you don't even try to address the topic (as in a free study) you deserve to get a really low score.
12/16/2005 03:56:09 PM · #65
Ultimately, I do feel that the top-ribbon shot will have the "correct" impression of the time frame. I left that sentence as subjective as possible because it will come down to what the majority of voters feels is "correct". I'm not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, this will penalize the photographer who set her alarm, got up, went to the studio, and took an amazing picture. By the strictest sense of the challenge description, the photograph is entirely valid and should be voted on style and technical alone. Getting a low score would surely prompt the response, "But look at my timestamp! It says '4:25 AM'! This is outrageous!" Ah, but there is no timestamp check. Which leads me to the voter's impression of what the time frame should look like, how "correct" the photo is, and allows both the "cheater" and "faithful" to be on the same playing field. This is going to be a tough one; I'm interested to see the results.
 12/16/2005 04:10:42 PM · #66
Originally posted by coolhar:
Why do people get the idea that this challenge is like a free study?


Because there is nothing to restrict WHAT you shoot, only WHEN you shoot it. Whether you shoot a macro, wide angle, landscape or nude, as long as you shoot it within that hour, it meets the challenge. Given that there's no way to VERIFY that the photographer shot during that timeframe (since you can change the clock on your camera) and that you're always supposed to assume the entry is legal, the only real test to pass is whether the image LOOKS like it was shot during that time. Aside from that, the challenge looks, walks and quacks like a free study.
 12/16/2005 04:21:41 PM · #67
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Why do people get the idea that this challenge is like a free study?


Because there is nothing to restrict WHAT you shoot, only WHEN you shoot it. Whether you shoot a macro, wide angle, landscape or nude, as long as you shoot it within that hour, it meets the challenge. Given that there's no way to VERIFY that the photographer shot during that timeframe (since you can change the clock on your camera) and that you're always supposed to assume the entry is legal, the only real test to pass is whether the image LOOKS like it was shot during that time. Aside from that, the challenge looks, walks and quacks like a free study.


That's true of most challenges, though; very few of them actually have restrictions on WHAT you shoot, they are restricted in other ways. In THIS challenge, the restriction is 4-5 AM, and that's (as has been pointed out) going to determine who wins and who doesn't, is who has the most convincing 4-5 AM images.

Free studies, on the othee hand, have NO restrictions of this sort, just date restrictions and editing restrictions.

So I think Harv is right; it's NOT a free study, albeit it may be freer thyan SOME challenges.

R.
 12/16/2005 04:43:47 PM · #68
Originally posted by batmaing:
I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I agree (I am not in the challenge so have no axe either way). I can see how people that did get up could be miffed (or variations on the theme:) at another entry where they never intended to get up early. I can also see how different parts of the world look different at this time and we have nothing to go on for the indoor shots - there is no real way to prove one way or the other.

Originally posted by scalvert:
I looked at this as basically a free study... ideally with the goal of communicating a pre-dawn scene.

This could be said for all challenges in some ways; in which case what is the point of having a theme/objective in the first place - just let them all be free study and let the better picture win (pic of the week/day deal).

Originally posted by scalvert:
For reference, check out this winner from the Orange challenge (the original was nearly monotone gray)

This also bothers me but for a different reason; I am coming to terms with the deal that here this is an accepted method of photography.

In the end the point is to get what YOU want out of the site without letting somebody with a different agenda derail your agenda.
 12/18/2005 11:37:21 PM · #69
You gotta' be kidding me. You mean we really didn't HAVE to get up at 4 a.m. to comply? I composed my shot the night before, then set my alarm to get up at the specific time. Some websites have ways of getting your photo properties, and I assumed the folks in charge here would also be able to check the exact time the shot was taken.

And after all this...somebody STILL suggested they didn't believe the clock shown in my shot. What do you wanna' bet, the commenter who made the suggestion will be someone who didn't take this Challenge as literally as I did? Sigh.

Message edited by author 2005-12-18 23:38:43.
 12/19/2005 02:15:58 PM · #70
I bet some ribbon will be a photo taken Outside the 4-5AM time and will still depict the "pre-dawn" ambient. I wonder how that will be taken from DNMC nazis... but I say: If that photo was voted that high, then it managed to communicate that it was shot between 4 and 5 AM. Thats ok with me
 12/19/2005 02:32:01 PM · #71
i used white glue instead of milk in my dairy entry because it translates better "on film" - does that mean i cheated on the dairy challenge?
There are many "tricks of the trade" that we use in photography because they appear more "real" than their true counterpart.
I agree that if your image has the mood or appearance of being taken at 4am (ie something that happens at that time) even if it wasnt that time on the clock, you have met the challenge. Photography is an illusionary art, afterall.
 12/19/2005 02:54:46 PM · #72
Originally posted by mesmeraj:
....I agree that if your image has the mood or appearance of being taken at 4am (ie something that happens at that time) even if it wasnt that time on the clock, you have met the challenge.....


From the challenge description....
"Set your alarm, and take a picture between 4:00 and 5:00 AM. This challenge may also be known as the "I can't believe I got up this early to take a photograph for a ^$&@*# challenge" challenge."

While I am not really a serious DNMC type (not sure why so many think that is a bad thing anyway - meeting the clients specifications is a requirement for serious work); Nothing in this desc implies moods, appearence or anything other then getting up at that time to take a pic.

Out of the box is one thing but ignoring something this clearly specified is just asking for more challenge entries to be free studies - regardless of the writeen description.
 12/19/2005 03:02:42 PM · #73
Originally posted by robs:
From the challenge description....
"Set your alarm, and take a picture between 4:00 and 5:00 AM. This challenge may also be known as the "I can't believe I got up this early to take a photograph for a ^$&@*# challenge" challenge."

Out of the box is one thing but ignoring something this clearly specified is just asking for more challenge entries to be free studies - regardless of the writeen description.


I'm with you 100% here. For me it's a matter of integrity. I feel pretty strongly that anyone who did not get up at that ungodly hour to take their picture is just simply not playing fair; I saw the whole challenge as being "about" the act of functioning at that hour. I'm disappointed in this thread, really...

R.
 12/19/2005 03:09:10 PM · #74
#

Message edited by author 2005-12-19 21:16:35.
 12/20/2005 07:52:02 AM · #75
I really do agree with bear music and robs on this one.
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