4 - 5 AM: How many cheated? - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

12/15/2005 01:22:31 PM · #3

It's an interesting question, semantically... To "cheat" means to "break the rules", and the challenge description is not a "rule".

R.

downtherabbithole

Canon EOS-30D

12/15/2005 01:24:07 PM · #4

Originally posted by bear_music:

It's an interesting question, semantically... To "cheat" means to "break the rules", and the challenge description is not a "rule".

R.

very well put bear, but I must say if an image doesn't fit the challenge how can it win first place any the given challenge?

12/15/2005 01:42:44 PM · #5

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Message edited by author 2005-12-15 13:44:47.

12/15/2005 01:43:09 PM · #6

Originally posted by gi_joe05:

Originally posted by bear_music:
It's an interesting question, semantically... To "cheat" means to "break the rules", and the challenge description is not a "rule".

R.

very well put bear, but I must say if an image doesn't fit the challenge how can it win first place any the given challenge?

Well, it shouldn't be able to, but in this case we have know way of knowing. Deep in the southern hemisphere sunrise falls within the time parameters right now, if I'm not mistaken, to give one obvious example of an ambiguity. And of course ANY image shot in the dark may's well have been shot between 4 and 5 AM for all we can tell. Plus, of course, any image shot inside under artifical light, who's to say otherwise in voting?

So, as VOTERS we simply can't make that dnmtc evaluation on these images.

R.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/15/2005 01:46:01 PM · #7

Originally posted by bear_music:

Originally posted by gi_joe05:

Originally posted by bear_music:
It's an interesting question, semantically... To "cheat" means to "break the rules", and the challenge description is not a "rule".

R.

very well put bear, but I must say if an image doesn't fit the challenge how can it win first place any the given challenge?

Well, it shouldn't be able to, but in this case we have know way of knowing. Deep in the southern hemisphere sunrise falls within the time parameters right now, if I'm not mistaken, to give one obvious example of an ambiguity. And of course ANY image shot in the dark may's well have been shot between 4 and 5 AM for all we can tell. Plus, of course, any image shot inside under artifical light, who's to say otherwise in voting?

So, as VOTERS we simply can't make that dnmtc evaluation on these images.

R.

if an image appeals to enough voters in a way that they would think it meets the challenge, then it will win. consider this absolutely killer image...

on the other hand, if most people don't think it meets the challenge, it will show up in the score, and then most likely in a thread complaining about why people don't get it ;-)

patrinus

Canon EOS-30D

12/15/2005 01:49:10 PM · #8

I think that if the photographer was able to create the 'illusion' of shooting at 4-5 AM that's it... in fact I have learned that photography is all about the looks (BIG LEARNING! haha) if some photographer is able to communicate a 4-5 feeling, ambient, or whatever then it really fits even if shot at noon. In other words, the message of the photo is more important than following the challenge description (I think this fits for every challenge, as long as the message complies with the description). It might be a little like 'thinking out of the box' and that is almost always very punished here...

Olympus 14-54mm f/2.8-3.5 Zuiko Digital Zoom

12/15/2005 01:50:59 PM · #9

Originally posted by skiprow:

Originally posted by bear_music:

Originally posted by gi_joe05:

Originally posted by bear_music:
It's an interesting question, semantically... To "cheat" means to "break the rules", and the challenge description is not a "rule".

R.

very well put bear, but I must say if an image doesn't fit the challenge how can it win first place any the given challenge?

Well, it shouldn't be able to, but in this case we have know way of knowing. Deep in the southern hemisphere sunrise falls within the time parameters right now, if I'm not mistaken, to give one obvious example of an ambiguity. And of course ANY image shot in the dark may's well have been shot between 4 and 5 AM for all we can tell. Plus, of course, any image shot inside under artifical light, who's to say otherwise in voting?

So, as VOTERS we simply can't make that dnmtc evaluation on these images.

R.

if an image appeals to enough voters in a way that they would think it meets the challenge, then it will win. consider this absolutely killer image...

on the other hand, if most people don't think it meets the challenge, it will show up in the score, and then most likely in a thread complaining about why people don't get it ;-)

Yah, but that one actually MET the challenge; nothing in the challenge said you couldn't take your window with you on location. Lovely, creative thinking and a well-deserved ribbon.

THIS challenge, on the other hand, mandates getting up at a certain hour to take a photograph, and there's no special rule requiring verification of time-of-shot (I don't understand that, btw) so there's absolutely no way to say an image DNMTC.

I suppose we're going to see that the voters have judged based on what they think a dead-of-the-morning shot OUGHT to look like, but I honestly don't know. I think this is a very strange challenge topic. Lotta nice images entered, though :-)

R.

DjFenzl

12/15/2005 01:53:22 PM · #10

oh great, another challenge where the image has to fit into the voters preconceived ideas of what it should look like. Here we go again...

MQuinn

Olympus OM-D E-M1

12/15/2005 02:08:08 PM · #11

All I know is for a fact mine was taken at that time, I wasn't going for it could be 4-5 am because it was. I actually kinda like the idea of it though, after all the challenges are here to make us take photos we normally wouldn't think of taking, and help us learn to be better,

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

12/15/2005 02:14:37 PM · #12

For this challenge the description was presice.

Set your alarm, and take a picture between 4:00 and 5:00 AM.

If someone can take a picture that leads the viewer to believe that it was or could have been taken at the right time then I think you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. If you feel it's blatently obvious that it wasn't then by all means vote it down.

patrinus

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/15/2005 02:20:57 PM · #13

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

If you feel it's blatently obvious that it wasn't then by all means vote it down.

That's te point... what if the photo really gives the idea of a 4-5am shot?. I agree, if some photo is blatantly obvious to miss the time, then it must be voted down for DNMC, but if the photo really 'SEEMS' to be taken at that time, it doesn't really matter the actual time at wich it was taken.

Tom_Robbrecht

12/15/2005 02:36:22 PM · #14

I did not take my picture at that hour nor did I reset my camera time.
I just hope people will have the impression it was taken at the time specified.
I also feel an image should stand on its own without help of the title, which can't be said for quite a few entries...

gloda

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

12/15/2005 03:50:52 PM · #15

I thought that getting up at the specified time was as much part of the challenge as taking a great image. Good I had no school that morning.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

12/15/2005 03:59:20 PM · #16

Originally posted by gloda:

I thought that getting up at the specified time was as much part of the challenge as taking a great image. Good I had no school that morning.

I think that's how most people took it.

Giorgio

Canon EOS-70D

Sigma 105mm f/2.8 Macro EX DG OS for Canon EF

12/15/2005 03:59:32 PM · #17

So I woke up early in the morning for this @#$%^&* challenge(as the description says) :)),took about 100 photos just to pick one and here comes a SMART ASS telling me that I cheated. WTF.

Canon EOS-20D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

12/15/2005 04:02:12 PM · #18

Originally posted by megatherian:

oh great, another challenge where the image has to fit into the voters preconceived ideas of what it should look like. Here we go again...

Um, welcome to every challenge ever.

12/15/2005 04:02:16 PM · #19

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

It's the middle of the summer in the Southern Hemisphere. I am assuming that the presence of dawn/sunrise shots in this challenge reflects the geographical distribution of our membership. I'd sure hate to see these shots scored down because they don't "look" like 5AM...

R.

12/15/2005 04:03:46 PM · #20

Originally posted by gloda:

I thought that getting up at the specified time was as much part of the challenge as taking a great image. Good I had no school that morning.

This is definitely true. That's why I'm so surprised not to see a special rule on this challenge, that the time stamp will be checked in the validation-of-winners process.

R.

12/15/2005 04:45:37 PM · #21

Originally posted by bear_music:

Originally posted by gloda:
I thought that getting up at the specified time was as much part of the challenge as taking a great image. Good I had no school that morning.

This is definitely true. That's why I'm so surprised not to see a special rule on this challenge, that the time stamp will be checked in the validation-of-winners process.

R.

but, alas, there is no 'special rule', making this challenge is no different than any other, where it is up to the individual voters to decide how an image moves them.

on one hand, you can argue about time-specifics, but then you turn around and say 'be open minded about places where 4-5am is different from your 4-5am'. this is really going to be a matter of which images best capture the essence of 'early, early in the morning'. those that move the voters to feel 'early' will do better than those that don't--regardless of when they were taken.

also, without a 'special rule', this debate is no different than the one that followed shannon's nightlight ribbon, or the 'not-a-fixed-window' debate created by the image i posted earlier.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS II USM Lens

12/15/2005 05:01:17 PM · #22

Originally posted by skiprow:

also, without a 'special rule', this debate is no different than the one that followed shannon's nightlight ribbon, or the 'not-a-fixed-window' debate created by the image i posted earlier.

I hear what you're saying, but it seems to me the window shot is a whole different category of beast from what we are discussing here. The window challenge said you had to "include the glass or frame so we know it is shot from a window", and the shooter did exactly that. One might quibble with the definition of "from" a window versus "through" a window but the elements are all there. Had he taken an actual WALL with him, or built one on location, would there have been any debate?

On this challenge, on the other hand, there is NO ambiguity: "Set your alarm and get up" is not the least ambiguous. This is why the lack of a "statutory" means of verification surprises me; why word it that way when it's not possible for voters to ascertain whether the challenge was met?

As you say, in the end the voters will judge based on the "best" wee-hours "feel", no doubt, but...

R.

Elaine

Canon EOS R5

12/15/2005 05:05:54 PM · #23

I finished voting, and there are many great shots. I assumed all were taken between 4 and 5 AM, as there is no way to tell for sure. I do not know what 4-5 looks like everywhere, and I don't know where the pictures were taken until after the voting, so there is no way to prove when the picture was taken. If I knew that someone's entry was taken outside of the 4-5AM time period, they would get a 1. The challenge does not say to take a picture that looks like early morning. Too bad I don't know which picture is Tom Robbrecht's--hope I didn't give him a high score!

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/15/2005 05:06:25 PM · #24

Originally posted by gi_joe05:

...if an image doesn't fit the challenge how can it win first place any the given challenge?

Unless there are special rules requiring the photographer to do certain things (like the Rubber Duckie challenge), then it's the IMAGE that has to meet the challenge, not the photographer. There's no rule that says you MUST meet the challenge, so you're at the mercy of the voters in that regard. If the voters feel that the image conveys 4-5am, then it wouldn't matter if you took the shot at noon. For reference, check out this winner from the Orange challenge (the original was nearly monotone gray):

I had a good idea for this one, but no shooting time. :-(