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11/22/2005 08:01:42 PM · #26 |
"It is a quantum leap to suggest that abominations of this ilk are somewhat linked to, or reflective of, Islamic law."
They're directly linked to an interpretation held by a large number of individuals. And somehow...we have to change that...
"we might be best served by conducting in-depth research as to the root cause of such behaviour, rather than simply pointing an accusing finger at religions and races."
Why is Islamic Law being enacted in these regions in such fashion?
What do we do to encourage change?
IMHO, we need to be involved in said regions because I don't feel we can turn a blind-eye to it.
I truly wish so many of you were not so two-faced. As so many make comments like "simply pointing an accusing finger at religions and races" and then turn around and start making statements like "all these christians" and "christian right"...etc.
And you know what....NONE OF YOU come to christians defenses when comments like that are made. Sorry, I don't care about Politically Correctness cause it's two-faced. And I have no respect for double-standards.
The case in point...there is a problem with how Islamic Law is being enacted in said regions. Yes, the people doing these things have a much different concept of "Islamic Law" than my muslim friend Sammy in the United States does. In fact, they hardly look the same. But they are called the same thing.
So how do we address it?
Originally posted by "Riponlady":
I find it very upsetting when a female "victim" remains anonymous but the "accused" (usually a man) is identified even when he is proved innocent. He has his reputation shattered forever regardless of the outcome and the malicious woman remains free from public knowledge. |
Yeah, I am of the opinion that court cases should not be "entertainment". |
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11/22/2005 09:23:51 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Why is Islamic Law being enacted in these regions in such fashion?
The case in point...there is a problem with how Islamic Law is being enacted in said regions. |
You keep asserting that the problem is "Islamic Law" but you're not providing any evidence to back up that assertion. The article you cite doesn't make the connection you're making between those abusive practices and "Islamic Law." The U.N. report asserts a connection between those practices and "patriarchal and tribal traditions," and also "an earlier, but now obsolete, Turkish penal code." I don't know enough about Turkish culture to simply agree with your opinion without further evidence that it's religious beliefs that are in fact underlying these attitudes.
Originally posted by theSaj:
I truly wish so many of you were not so two-faced. As so many make comments like "simply pointing an accusing finger at religions and races" and then turn around and start making statements like "all these christians" and "christian right"...etc. |
Attacking the Christian/religious right is quite a different matter than attacking all Christians. The religious right in the U.S. is a political movement that justifies its political positions on supposed religious grounds, so attacking those political positions and the so-called religious ideas underlying them is perfectly legitimate as far as I'm concerned. It's the leaders of the religious right who connect the two (politics and religion) in the first place, and then cry religious bigotry when the ugly conglomeration is called into question. Talk about two-faced and hypocritical.
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11/22/2005 10:14:53 PM · #28 |
| Cultural intolarance is born from ignorence as politics is spawned by power and democracy by oppression. |
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11/22/2005 11:26:23 PM · #29 |
In the case of Amina Lawal in Nigeria, her punishment of stoning to death as punishment under Sharia law was commuted because of the pressure that humanitarian and womens' rights groups put on the Nigerian government. A massive letter writing campaign and demonstrations in front of the Nigerian embassy in Washington.
This is an example of what can be done on a case by case basis, but to change broad geographical cultural practices will take a lot more and most likely governmental interference, as well. At this time, however, the Bush administration doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to changing a country's humanitarian treatment of women, or anyone for that matter, because of it's own brutal treatment of Muslim detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo, and Eastern Europe. We need to keep our own house in order first before we can be making demands of foreign cultures. |
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11/23/2005 08:32:59 AM · #30 |
I think many of the difficulties here lie in cultural understanding rather than religious. There are many cultural practices that are considered "wrong" in another country but the difficulty is in where and if another culture has the right to interfere and if they do then in what capacity. Could, for example the UK interfere with the US culture that accepts capital punishment or the Asian culture of eating dogs and cats. Should the hunting with dogs ban be extended across Europe or police bearing arms be brought into the UK?
Saj - I don't understand where the idea of "entertainment" in rape trials came from my post? Could you elucidate so I can understand your opinion on this?
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11/23/2005 09:57:52 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
In the case of Amina Lawal in Nigeria, her punishment of stoning to death as punishment under Sharia law was commuted because of the pressure that humanitarian and womens' rights groups put on the Nigerian government. A massive letter writing campaign and demonstrations in front of the Nigerian embassy in Washington. |
Thank you Olyuzi...
This is exactly what my point is. We need involvement. And in this case it shows a non-military involvement on the part of the western world enacting change, perhaps in this case for only one individual. But it lays the groundwork for more.
Originally posted by "riponlady":
"entertainment" in rape trials |
More so speaking generally regarding the trend in America of "court trials" becoming entertainment. Court Trials are like reality TV here in the U.S. Whether it's celebrity's like Michael Jackson, basketball stars, etc. or nobody's who gain infamy "Peterson" trial. It seems like our culture turns these into "entertainment" all over TV, news, etc. Sensationalized. Etc. And I really question whether all such trials should merely be kept behind closed doors. Except for official reports. (Case expected to last 4 more weeks.) Or Jury comes to conclusion convicts/frees so&so.
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11/23/2005 01:18:38 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
In the case of Amina Lawal in Nigeria, her punishment of stoning to death as punishment under Sharia law was commuted because of the pressure that humanitarian and womens' rights groups put on the Nigerian government. A massive letter writing campaign and demonstrations in front of the Nigerian embassy in Washington. |
Thank you Olyuzi...
This is exactly what my point is. We need involvement. And in this case it shows a non-military involvement on the part of the western world enacting change, perhaps in this case for only one individual. But it lays the groundwork for more. |
Prime example of you taking things OUT OF CONTEXT. Do read the full comment, and not cut and paste to suit your agenda. Olyuzi's full post:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
"In the case of Amina Lawal in Nigeria, her punishment of stoning to death as punishment under Sharia law was commuted because of the pressure that humanitarian and womens' rights groups put on the Nigerian government. A massive letter writing campaign and demonstrations in front of the Nigerian embassy in Washington.
This is an example of what can be done on a case by case basis, but to change broad geographical cultural practices will take a lot more and most likely governmental interference, as well. At this time, however, the Bush administration doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to changing a country's humanitarian treatment of women, or anyone for that matter, because of it's own brutal treatment of Muslim detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo, and Eastern Europe. We need to keep our own house in order first before we can be making demands of foreign cultures." |
The most pertinent parts of the above lie in the second paragraph, which of course you omitted. Why? Probably because they shoot holes at your original assertion that the US does have the right to poke around in places where in reality it doesn't have any grounds touching.
I'll once again quote these pertinent words, in case you still didn't bother to read through:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
"At this time, however, the Bush administration doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to changing a country's humanitarian treatment of women, or anyone for that matter, because of it's own brutal treatment of Muslim detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo, and Eastern Europe. We need to keep our own house in order first before we can be making demands of foreign cultures." |
Message edited by author 2005-11-23 13:19:56.
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11/23/2005 01:26:11 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by "rgo":
Why? Probably because they shoot holes at your original assertion that the US does have the right to poke around in places where in reality it doesn't have any grounds touching. |
No I did not include those paragraphs because I don't believe those are arguments not to be there, but rather arguments against how we are there at the moment.
But, regardless of those comments I still believe the western world needs to act. I believe much of our current problems are a failure to do so. But yes, I believe we need to improve our actions as well.
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11/23/2005 01:41:34 PM · #34 |
Just a personal opinion:
ALL organized religions (while at some point in time having been conceived for the good of humanity) are social control structures to achieve a particularly arranged society, hence ALL of them will produce extremes and hard to comprehend behaviors unacceptable to some.
For the record, this kind of practice of marrying a rape victim to the rapist (in my eyes) is not that much different from PUSHING a young christian woman to marry if she is pregnant. The difference is in HOW HARD YOU PUSH (and I am sure among those who believe the world was created around 6,000 years ago, the push can be extremely hard).
To quote Dalai Lama “for almost six billion people on the planet there should be six billion religions”. |
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11/24/2005 11:56:46 AM · #35 |
This is a fairly objectionable post. I object to both the social ills described and to theSaj's use of them in his religious crusade. I find objectionable the insinuations, misdirection, misinterpretation and uninformed views, right down to the *shrug*.
Several have pointed out the very tenuous link drawn between a religion and the social abuses common in poor, uneducated, socially antiquated (by Western standards) and rural areas of Turkey.
Having spent some time in Turkey, it is a fascinating and culturally rich country. It also represents a cultural trading ground, geographically and culturally with the Middle East (as has been the case for thousands of years). There are considerable opportunities for improving our mutual understanding of Eastern and Western cultures (Istanbul hit the news yesterday for holding the major Picasso retrospective in a significant step acknowledging Western culture).
I would love for the US to be part of the effort to improve local conditions. Significant commercial investment and the relaxation of trade barriers should help the poor, and charitable investment in schools, libraries and adult education centres should help education levels. However, the EU will be the main avenue for provision of this aid in the near future, as it has been in the recent past, and it will do so by continued investment and eduction, with the carrot of EU membership.
I believe that theSaj's implied alternative, some kind of offensive action against the country, would do little more than alienate another nation and worsen the humanitarian conditions.
I am not sure how theSaj has managed to justify to himself the killing of tens of thousands and the maiming of tens of thousands more on the ground that Eastern society was in need of a "renaissance", or how war is supposed to achieve a cultural revolution.
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11/24/2005 12:38:21 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by "riponlady":
"entertainment" in rape trials |
More so speaking generally regarding the trend in America of "court trials" becoming entertainment. Court Trials are like reality TV here in the U.S. Whether it's celebrity's like Michael Jackson, basketball stars, etc. or nobody's who gain infamy "Peterson" trial. It seems like our culture turns these into "entertainment" all over TV, news, etc. Sensationalized. Etc. And I really question whether all such trials should merely be kept behind closed doors. Except for official reports. (Case expected to last 4 more weeks.) Or Jury comes to conclusion convicts/frees so&so. |
As in the UK we do not have televised trials, the case of this being entertainment does not arise. I meant by keeping the names of all persons involved in a rape trial to be "in camera", that all names are withheld from public knowledge, both victim and accused. If a man is convicted, I am happy for his name to be made public BUT on the other hand if it had been deeemed that a malicious accusation has been made for penury gain or publicity by a woman, then her name should be made public and the man's withheld.
There is a danger that a woman may be dissuaded from accusing a man of rape because her name could be made public so this should only be done if it is proven that her intention was malicious and not misjudged. Several footballers and other "names" in the UK have been accused recently when there has been little or no proof of a crime being committed other than the accuser's word. The men involved have had their names spread across the tabloid press and as with any sex crime, mud sticks! The woman have often remained anonymous.
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11/24/2005 12:49:00 PM · #37 |
Saj,
I read the article and I see no mention of Islan anywhere by its authors. There are many possiblte causes for these problems, and your assertion that Islam is the sole or primary cause, without any apparent basis for supporting that assertion, is troubling at best.
Perhaps you meant to refer to Turkish law in the forum thread title? Even so, Turkish law forbids these types of so-called "honor killings;" however many are played off as suicides and never discovered.
I'm taking the liberty of changing this thread title to make it more directly related to the topic at hand.
~Terry
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11/24/2005 12:55:44 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Saj,
I read the article and I see no mention of Islan anywhere by its authors. There are many possiblte causes for these problems, and your assertion that Islam is the sole or primary cause, without any apparent basis for supporting that assertion, is troubling at best.
Perhaps you meant to refer to Turkish law in the forum thread title? Even so, Turkish law forbids these types of so-called "honor killings;" however many are played off as suicides and never discovered.
I'm taking the liberty of changing this thread title to make it more directly related to the topic at hand.
~Terry |
THANK YOU, TERRY!
I questioned the title of this thread a while ago but Saj did not respond to my enquiry. I am pleased to see the SC is on the ball!
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11/24/2005 12:59:16 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
THANK YOU, TERRY!
I questioned the title of this thread a while ago but Saj did not respond to my enquiry. I am pleased to see the SC is on the ball!
P |
...if belatedly. I wish I'd seen it sooner, but there were no reports on it and I just noticed it for the first time today.
~Terry
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12/01/2005 03:03:13 PM · #40 |
It's quite refreshing to see racism on this site. A bit of fresh air, I'll say.
Putting down Turkey because it's an islamic country... Well normally it's not but the president which your dear Bush like so much, has made it more or less islamic. So I'll have to agree with you that we have unfortuantly an islamic-gouvernment. But I would want to turn your atention that we are not the only ones. Just look at your own president . Isn't he/she religious?
I'll have you know that we may seem to you religious with our woman under their veils. I'm still surrounded by atheists, being one myself. As well as communists or socialists not believing in democracy because it's really fucking our country right now, thanks to Bush and the EU by the way for that.
As for the rapists and marriages. I just laughed so hard when I read that. Yes of course, cause well you know, it never happens in your country. No no, you can walk safely around the streets right? Well probably no, in New York I was scared shitless to step out onto the streets, my french friends don't want to leave Turkey because even at 11 o'clock, they can walk home alone feeling totally secure while in Paris, they weren't allowed to go out after 6.
This marriage system thing has nothing with Turkey, now a woman can speak up to her parents, she can take legal actions if she has to. It's not the country or how such things works here, it's just SOME people, these people usually having different ideas about different things. This happens everywhere unfortuantly. Who knows if the family really knew about the girls rape, or if they believed it. Who knows how the UN seems to know about such private things.
Oh by the way, these things really happened a lot, 50 years ago. I wouldn't be surprized if the UN dug up old news.
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