| Author | Thread |
|
|
11/17/2005 11:51:03 PM · #1 |
The recent threads about image databases made me decide to take a look at what's out there again, to see if I can do better than what I'm currently using, Thumbsplus.
So I downloaded eval copies of
iView MediaPro 3.0.0 (but I did apply their patch a few days ago, it doesn't show)
iMatch 3.4.0.33
Extensis Portfolio v7.0.6
and
Thumbsplus v7.0 Build 2105
I am going to use this thread to document my subjective impressions of using these packages. I am not sure how much time I'll have to do it, but at least I'll have a place for it!
Hopefully, some of you will be interested in following along, and better still, some may be interested in doing the "tests" with me (downloads are free, as are opinions), and others can jump in and offer advice or corrections if I falsely conclude something as a new user of those packages.
In other words, feel free to post to this thread. I'll be more inspired to take the time to write it up if I know others are interested (and or participating!)
Regards--Neil
Message edited by author 2005-11-18 11:50:16.
|
|
|
|
11/17/2005 11:54:22 PM · #2 |
Neil,
Have you used ThumbsPlus? I know of quite a few photographers that use this software for image cataloguing and just rave about it.
|
|
|
|
11/17/2005 11:54:45 PM · #3 |
I just started using IView Media Pro. I never thought I would need cataloging software but after using I would be lost without it. It also works, somewhat, with Adobe Bridge.
|
|
|
|
11/17/2005 11:57:42 PM · #4 |
Adobe Photoshop Album 2.0
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 12:29:46 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Neil,
Have you used ThumbsPlus? I know of quite a few photographers that use this software for image cataloguing and just rave about it. |
Yes, I've been using it for years (since version 3, I believe). It's the baseline I am comparing the others too. Though it's quite different really.
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 12:33:45 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Neil,
Have you used ThumbsPlus? I know of quite a few photographers that use this software for image cataloguing and just rave about it. |
Another vote for ThumbsPlus been using it forever. Not only is it the best database software but it does so much more like contact sheets webpages and dvd shows.
Message edited by author 2005-11-18 00:36:50. |
|
|
|
11/18/2005 01:11:24 AM · #7 |
First Log (catch up to where I am in my eval).
First Impressions. I've played with all three packages and built my first catalog with each.
I'll get a little bit more objective later, perhaps looking at it in a task oriented fashion. This is purely subjective first impressions.
So far, and subjectively, I'm more drawn to iView. The interface is clean, uses tabs and panes nicely, looks professional too (of the three packages, iMatch looks the least professional IMHO: I find the graphical browsing tree very toyish and too big and sparse in appearancem, and yet the thumbnails are small enough that only the simples tones are really differentiable.
The advantage of iView (and I think Portfolio as well) over Thumbsplus is that it can store a screen resolution version of your image in the database, and let you use it for a task like posting to the web, even if you've taken the image file offline. Actually, thumbsplus stores the thumbnail in the database of an offline file, and can export that, but it will still ask you for the disk if you click on that thumbnail. It doesn't really have a user concept of something being offline that you don't always want to load up.
iMatch is of course much less expensive, and that's a good thing. I want to like it best, but so far, price is all that drives me there!
All I can say about Portfolio so far is it seemed to have a nice noncluttered interface, but perhaps that's because it appears to have the least features (just conjecture now). And it put a little icon in my system tray for portfolio express. But I haven't decided whether it's actually useful.
I have noticed all three packages are pretty slow to catalog. I'll post some measurements later. And iView has crashed on me two or three times so far (and it's my third day since I installed it). Though I've been running it more than the others, so they perhaps haven't had an equal chance. iView lost the first catalog I was making, but it did autosend a bug report home, and I got an email the next day saying that a patch was available for my problem. I don't know if they built it after reading my bug report, but it was impressive nonetheless. If it hadn't crashed again that day after applying the patch, I would have been really wowed. But I am not sure the patch actually took, because iView still shows me a 3.0.0 version number in the about box. Seems like they'd want to include the build number of the patch in there somewhere.
Speaking of customer support and help, there's no local online help for iView! That's quite surprising. iMatch has one. Porfolio has a PDF based users guide. Looks very professional and complete, but it doesn't offer the same interactive level of searching that Windows help offers.
Ok that's all for this first post. It's a bit difficult writing a lengthy description in this little unformatted text box. And I keep worring I'll get whisked away from DPC and lose what I've written. So time to post...
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 01:39:55 AM · #8 |
Quick question
will any of these program catalog back up DVDs of photos that are already off line or do you have to re import the DVD to your hard drive then catalog then re burn back to DVD
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 02:09:38 AM · #9 |
iMatch will catalog a CD/DVD straight from the media. No need to copy the contents to the hard drive first. I primarily use iMatch this way, burn first, catalog later.
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 10:33:40 AM · #10 |
Ok, my first objective comparison:
Machine Info: Dual Xeon P4 with hyperthreading on (4 net processors)
Memory: 1 GB
Windows XP Pro
A small benchmark of a task which is key if you are using these for offline cataloging.
Task 1: Index a DVD+R with 1184 files and 17 folders on it, mixed format. Update. I decided to post the exact Breakdown
306 CR2 files
674 JPEG files
2 PSD files
982 Image files
19 BIB files (bible sidecar files, these are text)
182 .rws files (raw shooter sidecar files)
I got the original posted number of 1001 files from Portfolio--so it incorrectly thinks the text-only BIB files are image data.
Extensis Portfolio v7.0.6:
Catalog Time: 1 Hour 8 minutes!
App still available (Worked in Background): Yes
Over one hour to index 1 DVD. I have hundreds of DVDs I would need to index, since I always back up my initial offloads of the Camera to disc.
That's just not acceptible. I am pretty sure Thumbsplus doesn't take anywhere near this long. But we'll see.
While I was playing with the fields and order of the handy list mode in Extensis, it got confused. I moved around the columns but not all the data followed, so some of the data appears in the wrong column now. And it's not even consistent. Shutter speed shows the shutter speed in some of the rows, and the path in others. A refresh, switching views, minimizing/maximizing, etc. doesn't seem to clear this.
Final Result: I am looking at the thumbnails, and I don't see any for the CR2s! Something's wrong.
Message edited by author 2005-11-18 11:17:12.
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 11:13:18 AM · #11 |
Do you think you could, in a nutshell, explain the difference between these types of programs you're looking at and something like ACDSee? From what I've read in a couple threads these programs you're looking at are strictly organization/database programs, while ACDSee has cataloging but also editing and some other features. I've been using it (acdsee) to keep track of my first couple of stock uploads but its a little inefficient and I think one of these programs might be more along the lines of what I'm looking for, though they also sound like any may even be a little too powerful.
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 11:20:25 AM · #12 |
Ok, same test, same DVD+R, using Thumbsplus.
Other System Data I just thought to look at:
Free Physical Memory: 250MB while TP is already cataloging
Thumbsplus Pro v7.0 Build 2105
Catalog Time: 24 minutes
App still available (Worked in Background): Yes
CPU impact: <15%
Memory Impact: 60MB
Sorry, I didn't do the latter two numbers for Extensis, but the impact on my machine was minimal for sure. These are of course rather informal benchmarks and tests!
Still pretty slow, but much better than Extensis. Note that this is just making thumbnails. I just repeated the test, starting with a new T+ database, because the one I was using was already huge, whereas the Extensis Database was pretty empty. Also, I made the thumbnails as large as possible, to compare better with the "screen" views Extensis was preparing.
Catalog Time: 29 minutes
App still available (Worked in Background): Yes
Database Size: 48MB (with max icon size, 600 x 600, set
Thumbsplus (T+) thumbnailed all the files, including the CR2. It tried to load the RWS files, not understanding the type (this can be programmed--T+ can be told what file types are sidecars. However, at least in Version 7, while it will hide those files (including .THM files), user defined sidecars don't appear to be automatically copied and moved with the main file.
Message edited by author 2005-11-18 13:09:45.
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 11:26:34 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by bfox2:
Do you think you could, in a nutshell, explain the difference between these types of programs you're looking at and something like ACDSee? From what I've read in a couple threads these programs you're looking at are strictly organization/database programs, while ACDSee has cataloging but also editing and some other features. I've been using it (acdsee) to keep track of my first couple of stock uploads but its a little inefficient and I think one of these programs might be more along the lines of what I'm looking for, though they also sound like any may even be a little too powerful. |
Ben,
I'll go into features later, but yes, several of these packages have well featured editors. I won't do it quickly here because the only one I can speak for from long term experience is Thumbsplus. So several if not all of them can clearly with ACDSee on all grounds.
Here's some of the relevant features of T+:
- thumbnailing indexing of all types of files
- Offline catalog
- Batch mode editing
- Conversion among file types--and it supports a large number of these, well beyond the more common JPEG2000, PSD, JPG, BMP, etc.
- Above the "basics" editor
- Red eye reduction
- filters
- Resizing with choice of algorithm
- Color depth changes
- Omissions: No layers and no clone tool
Perhaps to do this fairly, I'll just go copy feature lists from their sites! But I will certainly be testing some of those features. I just have to think of additional tasks after I finish this one. And as I said, anyone else is welcome to jump in, download all the trials, and do some testing with me, reporting it here!
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 11:42:36 AM · #14 |
I'm in search of something for cataloging photos, but I need it to be network compatible. I've got a number of staff members on our network that need to access my photos from the server - right now they have to figure out my organizational system to find what they want.
So, are any of these packages able to do this or is there something else that can be run from a server or another way to add keywords to photos that anyone on the server can search for them (using windows systems - 98, 2000 & XP)?
Thanks,
Brian |
|
|
|
11/18/2005 11:44:17 AM · #15 |
Posting to show my interest and ask which version of iView MediaPro you are using?
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 11:50:34 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
Posting to show my interest and ask which version of iView MediaPro you are using? |
Thanks. Fixed the first post to include version numbers.
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 12:26:38 PM · #17 |
Neil, thanks for undertaking this very helpful and rather involved and tedious endeavor. I really appreciate it, and I'm sure many other DPC'ers do, too.
Just one thing I'd like to comment on at this time. You said:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Ok that's all for this first post. It's a bit difficult writing a lengthy description in this little unformatted text box. And I keep worring I'll get whisked away from DPC and lose what I've written. So time to post... |
I've lost posts this way, too. But now, if I'm going to type up anything long at all, I do it in another text editor and then copy and paste it here. Often when you have really long posts, your session can time out, and then when you click the magic "Post" button, your hard work ends up in never-never land. So I suggest that you either type up your posts in the text editor of your choice first, or before you click the post button, select all the text you entered and copy it to the buffer (a very quick Control-A and then Control C in Windows). Then you can just paste it (Control-V) back into the textbox if you need to re-enter it.
Anyway, hope this helps. And thanks again!
-Liz
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 12:47:38 PM · #18 |
i use extensis portfolio server 7.0 at work for a 8,000+ stock image library, a mix of purchased stock and several thousand in house. Should hit 10,000 next week or the week after--it is what i work on in between magazines.
the images are cataloged from dvd or cd. For cd's that had decent tab-delimited keyword files i was able to import the keywords to match the images, for others i've done it all by hand. Everyone else can search the database on the network--which is pretty handy.
searching keywords [ROBUST features for searching] is very fast, selecting and working with multiple images works ok...but sometimes it gets will hang for a while if i've selected dozens of images for batch keywording or renaming. [I'm on a dual 2.0 G5, on a gigabit network.]
also, some data fields have imported inconsistantly. That part of it--and perhaps some of the slowness--i think is due to network/server issues, permissions, etc...which i can't get figured out and tech support doesn't quite know what to think of it.
not enough control of contact sheets, website exports are pretty good--there are stock agencies whose websites are basically a front end to an extensis portfolio database webserver edition, complete with e-commerce and all that jazz.
At home on a PC i use Picasa, just as a thumb browser and it is hella fast. Faster even. But not as many options.
The network/workgroup features of Portfolio are nice...different levels of access and control, complex smart folders, saved finds, searching across multiple catalogs, fields, etc.
I don't use it as a workflow tool, but you can. I also don't want a thumbnail program that thinks it is photoshop.
i do have a pet peeve or two...
-you can use portfolio to back up a catalog onto a cd or dvd. BUT ONLY ONE. So that doesn't help me with thousands of 20-50 meg images.
-you can use portfolio to email files....but if they were cataloged from a cd or dvd you have to put the original media back in....even though a good sized 72dpi preview is saved on the server.
hope this helps.
I think if i could pick a new program to experiment with it would be Filemaker Pro, their new creative tools are amazing, and for a useable image database--not an editor--i really don't think anything could beat something as powerful.
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 01:06:46 PM · #19 |
iMatch:
This is cataloging into a fresh catalog file.
Catalog Time: 46 minutes
App still available (Worked in Background): Yes, but limited in what I can do, e.g., I could browse a catalog, but I couldn't open the edit window.
CPU impact: 15-25% CPU, but it's own browser seemed somewhat unresponsive while cataloging
Memory Impact: 28 - 80MB
Resulting Database Size:: 2158KB + 42MB for offline cache.
iMatch nicely gave an estimate of completion time, which varied quite a bit as it went through. Initially, it said 29 minutes, but then after 13 minutes, it was saying anywhere between 39 and 72 minutes. It seemed to have found the CR2 files, and that's what changed it's mind.
Ok, Indexing finished just fine. But I had checked offline caching, and I even looked at the cache directory, which appears to have been populated, but I can't seem to load the images without the DVD being inserted. Will need to look into that.
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 02:46:12 PM · #20 |
I reran the Extensis test without the offline image caching:
This is cataloging into a fresh catalog file.
Catalog Time: 59 minutes
App still available (Worked in Background): Yes
CPU impact: 2-8% CPU, VERY LOW
Memory Impact: 28MB
Resulting Database Size:: 16,547,840
Still pokey, but perhaps they've opted to be "so well blended into the background" with that low CPU utilization that the speed is subpar.
One of the reasons I re-ran this was when I looked at the offline cache, I noted that Portfolio puts all the files in one directory. At least it did for the set I did on my hard disk, plus the original cached files from the DVD. 17,144 files were in the folder in all, and I can't help but think that this will start to really bog down when the list of files gets even greater. Windows starts to slow down in a major way with large folder sizes and with lots of individual files.
Note that I have 4 effective processors: two physical, two by hyperthreading, and none of the apps appear to be making good use of them.
As a side note, Thumbsplus, will use multithreading if you manually request it to index more than one folder at a time (rather than starting at the top and requesting the entire folder hiearchy.) But this is an inconvenient way to do DVD indexing, and wasn't part of the test.
|
|
|
|
11/18/2005 04:12:23 PM · #21 |
Here's iView MediaPro results
This is cataloging into a fresh catalog file.
Catalog Time: 11 minutes Category Winner!
App still available (Worked in Background): Yes
CPU impact: 10-16% CPU
Memory Impact: 24MB
Resulting Database Size:: 17,548,797
It absolutely rocks in speed compared to the others. This is what I personally consider the maximum time it should take to index a DVD.
On the other hand, I had another crash with it when I was setting up for the scans. This new version is not very stable IMHO. After it crashed, I reinstalled the patch to make sure it was there. Still says 3.0.0, but I do note that it has a build number 427B. It might have been there before too, because it's under the version number and in lighter type, so I might not have noticed.
Thumbnails appear to be 320 pixels wide or long max, so smaller than other apps. I just found the full-screen preview feature, which was not accessible from the same menu as the import by bad design (on an otherwise well designed GUI). So I am going to rerun the import test now.
Catalog Time: 13 minutes Still beats the others!
App still available (Worked in Background): Yes
CPU impact: 10-16% CPU
Memory Impact: 24MB
Resulting Database Size:: 51,731,832
The screen previews were saved at 1024 at "normal" quality. These are the middle settings in both cases. You can store up to 1280 and "best" quality.
Message edited by author 2005-11-18 16:38:48.
|
|
|
|
11/19/2005 07:08:58 PM · #22 |
I sent in another bug/report dump for iView MediaPro and received another email response from a software engineer who had obviously taken the time to look at the report. I'll have to say that I'm impressed so far with this company. This is one of the things I've liked about Cerious -- Thumbsplus's creators over the years as well.
It's refreshing to see that there are still companies who really care about preventing bad experiences their users might be having ASAP, and as a side result, catching a fixing any bugs as early as possible.
|
|
|
|
11/19/2005 07:11:17 PM · #23 |
iView is SO slow for anything I do compared to ACDSee 8. :(
|
|
|
|
11/28/2005 01:20:54 PM · #24 |
Any further reports on this to make Neil?
I've also been looking into cataloguing software, and am having similar reactions to yourself.
Lack of support for 350D RAW in ACDSee8 is ridiculous, so that's out the window.
Portfolio - hugely powerful, it seems, and I like the interface. Having trouble getting it to see 350D RAW, though thech support have been helpful.
iView just crashed, so I'm not following that up until I've been through some others.
The one I'm most interested in at the moment is iMatch, which you haven't mentioned, unless I missed something. So far, it seems reasonably quick (and after all, catalogue creation is a one-time thing), deals with off-line storage happily, sees .CR2 files without being patched, is cheap, and enormously flexible. Perhaps too flexible for my limited computer savvy, but I think I'll get there.
I'll persevere with Portfolio a little, but with iMatch at less than half the price, I can't imagine going for it ...
Ed |
|
|
|
11/28/2005 02:30:29 PM · #25 |
Ed, I got busy doing other things and then Thanksgiving, so this was put on the backburner. But I need to push it up my priority list a bit because my trials will be expiring soon.
I am including iMatch in my list, and it was included in my import testing below.
If you want to join me in testing, that's great. I was going to tackle some "task-oriented tests" next, e.g., define a specific task with some images and compare how they do and ease of use. (Tasks related to cataloging and retrieval, including offline). Since they are all available as downloadable demos, anyone is welcome (no, ENCOURAGED) to help test.
Neil
|
|
