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09/01/2004 11:24:43 AM · #401 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
***Whose conduct do you think I'm criticizing? I have only criticized the president's and his administrations', not the enlisted man/woman's conduct. They are the heros.
I'm glad we seem to agree on one thing...that is war is horrible...and why I have been screaming to send our troops home and not face these horrors...Are you saying that I"m not entitled to criticize the president for this very thing we agree on? |
Olyuzi, let me ask you a serious question. I'd really like to know what you think would happen in Iraq and Afghanistan if the U.S. were to immediately pulled all of its troops out?
Ron |
***I think there would be continued fighting for political control of the country and that civil war would break out if the US pulled out completely. |
I agree.
So, my next question to you is this: if that is what were to happen, how many deaths would you predict would occur as
a) a direct result of the escalated fighting and/or civil war, and
b) as an indirect result of that war ( e.g. deaths caused by air-borne, soil-borne, and water-borne diseases exacerbated by the actions of war )? |
***I'm not saying that we need to just drop the ball and let things go as they may. We need to get other countries and the United Nations involved to start the process towards making Iraq a more stable country, in how Iraqis decide to run their country. As it stands now, Ron, Iraqis see that a CIA man has been made president of their country, and before that, anotehr CIA man was slated for that position until his corruption came out and the US turned against him. They see that John Negroponte has been appointed as US ambassador to Iraq. His history in Central America during the Reagan/Bush I years has been to terrorize the native populations in Honduras and Nicaragua. As it stands now, it appears that Iraq is getting out of control and more and more deaths will ensue on both sides. The American government has completely destablized the region and Saudi Arabia is soon to follow. We need to start getting more countries and the UN involved. My opinion. |
On the contrary. In your own quote above you said "...and why I have been screaming to send our troops home and not face these horrors..."
with no mention in that response about any other simultaneous or precursor activities. But, assuming that you "intended" them - my next question:
How do we get "more countries and the UN involved"?
Most other countries are being targeted by the Islamic Terrorists both in Iraq ( kidnappings and beheadings of their nationals ) and on their own sovereign soil ( as in the Madrid bombings, for exampe ). Some are already pulling out of Iraq as a result. What argument can the U.S. provide for them to go back in? For other countries under attack to remain?
The U.N. has already demonstrated that they cut and run as soon as they come under attack. What would entice them to become involved, other than diplomatically - which we already know doesn't solve the problem.
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10/23/2005 05:09:36 PM · #402 |
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10/23/2005 05:16:38 PM · #403 |
I'm having trouble taking something seriously that is dated 3rd NOVEMBER 2005!
Last time I looked we hadn't got there yet or have I overslept?
P
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10/23/2005 05:19:47 PM · #404 |
| Just come back and read it in two weeks time. |
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10/23/2005 05:28:46 PM · #405 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
I'm having trouble taking something seriously that is dated 3rd NOVEMBER 2005!
Last time I looked we hadn't got there yet or have I overslept?
P |
If you go to the original you will see that what you are reading is a review/exerpt scheduled for publication in the 11/3/05 Edition of the New York Review of Books.
The report being reviewed was published 9/25/2005. Notice that you haven't heard about this on the evening news in the month since ....
Here's the full report for those who want the full story and not just the highlights.
Message edited by author 2005-10-23 17:33:42. |
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10/23/2005 05:40:02 PM · #406 |
Called me biased ( I've been called worse ), but these accusations remind me first and foremost of the testimony of one, John Kerry, before Congress , about the "atrocities" being committed daily in Viet Nam.
Hopefully, we all know now that that testimony was patently false.
Sorry, but I can't help but think that I must view all such testimony being published by Human Rights Watch now as being of the same nature as Kerry's testimony, barring supportive evidence beyond the testimony itself. That is, Possible, but Doubtful. |
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10/23/2005 05:49:25 PM · #407 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Hopefully, we all know now that that testimony was patently false. |
My Lai happened. The Gulf of Tonkin incident did not. Who has a record of providing false testimony? |
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10/23/2005 09:38:46 PM · #408 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
Hopefully, we all know now that that testimony was patently false. |
My Lai happened. The Gulf of Tonkin incident did not. Who has a record of providing false testimony? |
John Kerry, for one. |
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10/23/2005 09:50:16 PM · #409 |
Nevermind.
Message edited by author 2005-10-23 21:51:31. |
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10/23/2005 10:10:15 PM · #410 |
Putting aside the human rights issues for a moment, I'm wondering what exactly the U.S. government thinks it's accomplishing with these torture practices. Has anyone seen the recent interview with the American nun who was tortured in Guatemala? She stated that after several days of horrendous abuse, she told her torturers anything she thought they wanted to hear. At one point she said the interrogators held up a photograph of a woman who clearly was someone other than the nun, but she knew they wanted her to say it was a photograph of her, and so she said it was, because all she cared about was getting the torture to end. I understand that it's well known that information extracted under torture is notoriously unreliable. In addition to that fact, and as one of the soldiers stated in the article posted by GeneralE, if you pick up guys by mistake who haven't done anything wrong, and weren't your enemy to begin with, they will be your enemy after you've tortured them.
So what is the point?
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10/24/2005 01:44:34 AM · #411 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
Hopefully, we all know now that that testimony was patently false. |
My Lai happened. The Gulf of Tonkin incident did not. Who has a record of providing false testimony? |
John Kerry, for one. |
Mr. Kerry has nothing to do with this -- why bring him into it other than to distract attention away from the real issues.
The US Administration -- this one and many previous ones -- lie to the American people and their elected representatives in Congress on a regular basis. This Administration is perhaps more egregious in their excesses than some others, but they all do it, and have for a long time.
Remind me again why a God-fearing Christian isn't outraged that his governement is engaging in torture?
Message edited by author 2005-10-24 01:46:18. |
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10/24/2005 08:54:34 AM · #412 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
Hopefully, we all know now that that testimony was patently false. |
My Lai happened. The Gulf of Tonkin incident did not. Who has a record of providing false testimony? |
John Kerry, for one. |
Mr. Kerry has nothing to do with this -- why bring him into it other than to distract attention away from the real issues. |
I only mentioned Mr. Kerry as an example of how even intelligent individuals can be deceived into believing or, indeed, even into providing "first hand" accounts that are untrue. That is why I, for one, do not believe such accounts without corroborating evidence.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The US Administration -- this one and many previous ones -- lie to the American people and their elected representatives in Congress on a regular basis. This Administration is perhaps more egregious in their excesses than some others, but they all do it, and have for a long time. |
Agree with the first sentence. Disagree with the first half of the second sentence. Agree with the second half of the second sentence.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remind me again why a God-fearing Christian isn't outraged that his governement is engaging in torture? |
I'm not outraged that my government is engaging in torture because THEY ( my government ) are NOT engaging in torture. I AM outraged that too many INDIVIDUALS engage in actions against their fellow men and women that are clearly despicable. And that is true whether they are military personnel abusing prisoners, terrorists killing non-combatants, or gang-members attacking their fellow citizens. |
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10/24/2005 09:08:09 AM · #413 |
Originally posted by RonB:
I'm not outraged that my government is engaging in torture because THEY ( my government ) are NOT engaging in torture. |
So I take it, then, that you agree with the official Bush administration documentary definition of "torture" as being the kind of treatment that actually produces organ failure or death.
And that anything short of THAT, is therefore not torture, right? |
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10/24/2005 09:22:52 AM · #414 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Originally posted by RonB:
I'm not outraged that my government is engaging in torture because THEY ( my government ) are NOT engaging in torture. |
So I take it, then, that you agree with the official Bush administration documentary definition of "torture" as being the kind of treatment that actually produces organ failure or death. |
Could you provide a link to the "official Bush administration documentary definition of "torture"" that states or even implies that only "treatment that actually produces organ failure or death" qualifies as "torture"?
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
And that anything short of THAT, is therefore not torture, right? |
Only if YOU say so. I didn't, and don't.
Message edited by author 2005-10-24 09:23:14. |
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10/24/2005 09:35:55 AM · #415 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remind me again why a God-fearing Christian isn't outraged that his governement is engaging in torture? |
I'm not outraged that my government is engaging in torture because THEY ( my government ) are NOT engaging in torture. I AM outraged that too many INDIVIDUALS engage in actions against their fellow men and women that are clearly despicable. And that is true whether they are military personnel abusing prisoners, terrorists killing non-combatants, or gang-members attacking their fellow citizens. |
That's right, governments don't kill people, soldiers kill people. Sorry, I forgot. |
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10/24/2005 09:46:42 AM · #416 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remind me again why a God-fearing Christian isn't outraged that his governement is engaging in torture? |
I'm not outraged that my government is engaging in torture because THEY ( my government ) are NOT engaging in torture. I AM outraged that too many INDIVIDUALS engage in actions against their fellow men and women that are clearly despicable. And that is true whether they are military personnel abusing prisoners, terrorists killing non-combatants, or gang-members attacking their fellow citizens. |
That's right, governments don't kill people, soldiers kill people. Sorry, I forgot. |
Excuse me, but I thought that the question had to do with "torture" not with "killing". You may equate them, but I do not. I do not disagree that our government does engage in, or at least actively directs, the killing of enemy combatants; however, I contend that it does not engage in, nor direct, the torture of same. |
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10/24/2005 12:27:07 PM · #417 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remind me again why a God-fearing Christian isn't outraged that his governement is engaging in torture? |
Originally posted by RonB:
I'm not outraged that my government is engaging in torture because THEY ( my government ) are NOT engaging in torture. I AM outraged that too many INDIVIDUALS engage in actions against their fellow men and women that are clearly despicable. And that is true whether they are military personnel abusing prisoners, terrorists killing non-combatants, or gang-members attacking their fellow citizens. |
So you're going to engage in your familiar game of "show me the written evidence"? There is no document that states that torture is the official policy of the United States government. There is no government in the world, not even the worst among them, that will state such a thing officially. The ones who engage in it will always deny and lie about it. So if you're looking for that sort of "proof," obviously it won't be found. But does that mean it's not happening? How many reports will it take to convince you? What's the critical mass in your estimation?
How much money will have to disappear into the bowels of Halliburton before you'll believe there is corruption?
How many "mistakes" will George W. have to make before you believe he's a blithering idiot?
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10/24/2005 01:06:23 PM · #418 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remind me again why a God-fearing Christian isn't outraged that his governement is engaging in torture? |
Originally posted by RonB:
I'm not outraged that my government is engaging in torture because THEY ( my government ) are NOT engaging in torture. I AM outraged that too many INDIVIDUALS engage in actions against their fellow men and women that are clearly despicable. And that is true whether they are military personnel abusing prisoners, terrorists killing non-combatants, or gang-members attacking their fellow citizens. |
So you're going to engage in your familiar game of "show me the written evidence"? |
Absolutely. If I loudly proclaimed that YOU, JUDITH POLAKOFF were a liar of the first magnitude, that you intentionally deceived people to increase your own power, prestige, and financial interests, that you condoned torture, and that you manipulated contracts to benefit yourself and your close friends, would YOU not "demand proof" of my accusations? If you can honestly answer "NO, I wouldn't.", then I would seriously doubt your mental competance.
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
There is no document that states that torture is the official policy of the United States government. There is no government in the world, not even the worst among them, that will state such a thing officially. The ones who engage in it will always deny and lie about it. So if you're looking for that sort of "proof," obviously it won't be found. But does that mean it's not happening? |
No, it doesn't. But, by the same token, the unsubstantiated ACCUSATIONS that it is happening doesn't mean that it actually IS.
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
How many reports will it take to convince you? |
Frankly, there aren't enough "reports" to do that.
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
What's the critical mass in your estimation? |
A facsimile or unaltered photo of a Government document.
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
How much money will have to disappear into the bowels of Halliburton before you'll believe there is corruption? |
Not too much. But corruption on whose part? Whenever money changes hands there is the potential for corruption. It happens all the time, and in every sector of society. Do you know people who do not report 100% of the money they receive that the IRS says is taxable? If they play the lottery and win $3.00, do they report it as income? Do they bet on sports and declare all of the money they win? If not, they are guilty of corruption. And I'll bet that you know a few folks like that. It's just a matter of scale. Frankly, I'm more concerned about appropriating 200 MILLION dollars of taxpayer money to build a bridge in Alaska from Ketchikan (pop. 14,500) to Gravina Island (pop. 50 on a good day). That's comes to 4 MILLION dollars per resident. Now, to me, THAT's corruption.
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
How many "mistakes" will George W. have to make before you believe he's a blithering idiot? |
"Mistakes" do not make someone a "blithering idiot". You can make a LOT of mistakes and not be a "blithering idiot" ( young people make all kinds of mistakes, but I don't clasify very many as "blithering idiots" ). On the other hand, you can be a "blithering idiot" and not make many mistakes at all. So I don't see a direct correlation between the two.
{edited to correct placement of quote block }
Message edited by author 2005-10-24 13:43:04. |
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10/24/2005 01:33:15 PM · #419 |
Originally posted by RonB:
If I loudly proclaimed that YOU, JUDITH POLAKOFF were a liar of the first magnitude, that you intentionally deceived people to increase your own power, prestige, and financial interests, that you condoned torture, and that you manipulated contracts to benefit yourself and your close friends, would YOU not "demand proof" of my accusations? If you can honestly answer "NO, I wouldn't.", then I would seriously doubt your mental competance.There is no document that states that torture is the official policy of the United States government.
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So would you approve of an independent commission to investigate interrogation policies and practices all the way up to the highest levels of government? |
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10/24/2005 01:41:46 PM · #420 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
How many reports will it take to convince you? |
Frankly, there aren't enough "reports" to do that. |
I'm considering whether we can pool our resources and buy you a ticket to Iraq, so you can see for yourself. |
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10/24/2005 01:45:15 PM · #421 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by RonB:
If I loudly proclaimed that YOU, JUDITH POLAKOFF were a liar of the first magnitude, that you intentionally deceived people to increase your own power, prestige, and financial interests, that you condoned torture, and that you manipulated contracts to benefit yourself and your close friends, would YOU not "demand proof" of my accusations? If you can honestly answer "NO, I wouldn't.", then I would seriously doubt your mental competance.
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So would you approve of an independent commission to investigate interrogation policies and practices all the way up to the highest levels of government? |
I would, if a majority of our elected representatives thought it necessary. I would NOT if only a vocal few, or the loudest media pundits thought it was necessary. |
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10/24/2005 01:47:11 PM · #422 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
How many reports will it take to convince you? |
Frankly, there aren't enough "reports" to do that. |
I'm considering whether we can pool our resources and buy you a ticket to Iraq, so you can see for yourself. |
Have you seen for YOURself?
If not, it looks to me like both your beliefs and mine are based on the answer to the question of "who do you trust?". |
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10/24/2005 01:55:50 PM · #423 |
I saw it on TV recently (national television station here in the US - I do not have cable) - the story on alleged torture, including copies of unclassified documents with Donald Rumsfeld's notes on recommendations for treatment of the prisoners, stating that (if he can stand on his feet 8 hours a day, why is 4 hrs for prisoners to stand up considered a stress?
There was a lot shown in that documentary, including interviews with people that were there. This begs the question: why did Hitler kill himself? With a few good lawyers interpreting Geneva convention and the definition of torture, including how much he really knew - he could have walked out of Nurnberg a free man... |
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10/24/2005 01:58:25 PM · #424 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
How many reports will it take to convince you? |
Frankly, there aren't enough "reports" to do that. |
I'm considering whether we can pool our resources and buy you a ticket to Iraq, so you can see for yourself. |
Have you seen for YOURself?
If not, it looks to me like both your beliefs and mine are based on the answer to the question of "who do you trust?". |
Precisely. Trust a soldier who was there, or a President who won't even tell us where he spent the Vienam war, much less the real reason he started this one.
Message edited by author 2005-10-24 13:59:06. |
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10/24/2005 02:00:50 PM · #425 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
So would you approve of an independent commission to investigate interrogation policies and practices all the way up to the highest levels of government? |
I would, if a majority of our elected representatives thought it necessary. I would NOT if only a vocal few, or the loudest media pundits thought it was necessary. |
Since our elected representatives represent their constituents' wishes, what would you ask of YOUR elected representative to do? Would you want them to push for an investigative independent commission? Given that the torture issue does not seem to be going away, and that high government officials have come out with memorandums that have set the groudwork for policy ignoring the Geneva Conventions and establishing allowable torture practices, would YOU say that an independent commission should be established? |
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