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 10/21/2005 10:51:15 AM · #26
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The problem with these pictures is that it takes the opposite extreme. While we shouldn't be glorifying the size 0, 107 lb, 5'10" model, we should not be glorifying this body style either. From a health point of view it is a scourge on society. From a moral point of view it glorifies our decadent, no-impulse-denied mentality.

My $0.02


I don't think Nimoy is glorifying anything here but self love. The lighting is harsh, the environment stark, the contrast high, and the models the opposite of the ideal. The viewer is left with flesh and gesture and expression. Body and soul. To me, the viewer of these photos becomes vouyer to a transformation of self image in the models from self conscious repugnance, to exploration, to celebration, and finally to self love. Nimoy makes for the viewer to confront issues of our own self image and leaves us with a positive message.


Well said. To me (with a body very much like those shown) these images are not about glorifying anything but about finding the beauty in people regardless of their shape and size and also about the models themselves feeling beautiful in themselves.

Laurie, I think they are beautiful. I like the high contrast, the harsh lighting and the beautiful light and shadow shapes.
10/21/2005 10:59:10 AM · #27
DrAchoo
Human emotions are complex, much more so than your postings would suggest you understand.
We often have feelings that conflict and don't entirely make sense. We often have feelings that aren't based on what is best for us.
One can be at the same time comfortable in one's skin (not just personality-wise but body-wise too) and completely aware of the health implications of obesity.

10/21/2005 11:21:23 AM · #28
cool
10/21/2005 11:21:54 AM · #29
Originally posted by Kavey:
DrAchoo
Human emotions are complex, much more so than your postings would suggest you understand.
We often have feelings that conflict and don't entirely make sense. We often have feelings that aren't based on what is best for us.
One can be at the same time comfortable in one's skin (not just personality-wise but body-wise too) and completely aware of the health implications of obesity.


Thank you! That is what I was thinking. When I go to my doctor we talk about my weight but what I tell him is, "I have done the diets, the pills, the works but I found that NONE of that will work simply because I didn't change the lifestyle that went with it. If I can't change the lifestyle I will continue to put the weight back on and will continue the even more desctructive cycle of up and down, up and down with my weight both physically and emotional, not good for anyone especially me."

You know what he said?

"I love you, could you talk to my other overweight patients?"

I'm active, I'm busy, I try to watch what I eat but I won't make myself sick over how I look anymore. I refuse to quit living life to fit the ideal of someone else. And yes, it's not healthy to have that much extra weight, I get backaches and such, get checked on a regular basis for diabetes since my body reacts differently to sugar than others but knock on wood, I've been blessed so far.

Your real life bedside manner may be second to none but your board bedside manner is a bit cold but I still love ya! :)

Deannda
 10/21/2005 11:27:31 AM · #30
Originally posted by Kavey:
DrAchoo
Human emotions are complex, much more so than your postings would suggest you understand.
We often have feelings that conflict and don't entirely make sense. We often have feelings that aren't based on what is best for us.
One can be at the same time comfortable in one's skin (not just personality-wise but body-wise too) and completely aware of the health implications of obesity.


Well, I'll stop trying to defend myself, but I will leave you with this (so as you feel we do actually agree). My point is that one can very well be happy with themselves despite their obesity. I encourage this and feel it can only help in the huge amount of effort that will need to be put forth to change. Nimoy's work, however, made me feel more like people should be happy because of their obesity. Perhaps I'm taking a silly view of the work (which BTW, is technically excellent, it appears the Vulcans are good at yet another thing). When 98% of photographic subject are lithe, having subject who are not seems like it was done on purpose to convey a message. I was scared the message was "fat is beautiful". People are beautiful, fat isn't. Just remember my whole life is about "health" so perhaps I am seeing the pictures through different eyes.

Perhaps it would be easier to understand if Nimoy had done a piece on smokers. I know just as well as you that smokers are just as beautiful and intricate and wonderful on the inside as non-smokers. Smokers can be happy with themselves and their lives. Smokers can be fulfilled. But smoking is never good and can only lead to problems. I would have taken issue with the fact that the smoking was seemingly glorified (like Hollywood did in the 50's and 60's before the health issues were known).

Replace "smoking" with "obesity" in the above paragraph and you get the idea I was apparently having trouble conveying.
 10/21/2005 12:05:47 PM · #31
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
My point is that one can very well be happy with themselves despite their obesity. .

Again, you're missing my point about complexity of human emotion and the fact that peoples' feelings about themselves are often not rational, consistent or compatible with other of their feelings about themselves.

You're assuming that if people are obese than they cannot be happy with their appearance, only with other aspects of themselves and despite their body not inclusive of it. In reality people can be happy with their body too even when obese and even at the same time as being aware of and truly understanding the health implications of obesity.

Message edited by author 2005-10-21 12:06:23.
 10/21/2005 12:22:15 PM · #32
Originally posted by Kavey:
In reality people can be happy with their body too even when obese and even at the same time as being aware of and truly understanding the health implications of obesity.


OK, I can buy this. I am certainly not hoping we all look like his and her supermodels. More than a few hours of my teen years were spent wishing I had "muscles". I would try to gain them and ultimately fail because I'm just not set up to be musclebound.

You properly point out that life is much more than "living long", but "living well". If someone lives a life of self-torture trying to lose weight in order to extend their years, that may not be best. I do still encourage people to not grow complacent with their obesity. It is a daily battle in a society that uses food as everything from an emotional substitute to status symbol. The food industry really could care less about our health and only really worries about profits.

So I do apologize to anybody I have offended. I stand 100% behind anybody who has taken some of the "cold and clinical" words to heart and wish you best on your resolve to change. It is a long and hard road with no easy answers (but plenty who are offering them). But do remember Kavey's point (or at least my paraphrase) that it is better to live well, than to live long.

Is that better? ;)
 10/21/2005 12:44:38 PM · #33
Hey, you hadn't offended me - I enjoy discussion of ideas and beliefs and concepts and possibilities... I was posting more to clarify how I felt about it and how it was perfectly possible to feel two conflicting feelings than to insist you change your feelings about it!

That said, I'm very much of the "live well rather than live long but without happiness" school of thought so I can definitely agree to your last post!

:o)

Message edited by author 2005-10-21 12:46:09.
 10/21/2005 12:49:38 PM · #34
In clinical terms I think one of the things that Nimoy is railing against here is a psychological AUTOimmunity, but maybe I"m reading into it too much, as Peterish has suggested.

I'm surprised that no one has commented on the uneven, tilted "horizon" line in some of the later pics, or the mirror scuplture with different angles...it's as if he's saying that the women are looking at themselves from different angles.

Message edited by author 2005-10-21 12:55:32.
 10/21/2005 01:08:15 PM · #35
"However, nobody should be happy about it either. Obesity is a leading cause of death in this country. The women in the picture are clearly morbidly obese. This increases their risk for diabetes, heart disease, some cancers, back and muscle problems, irregular menses, and a host of other health issues. They can certainly love themselves because of who they are and their particular skills and interests, but as a physician, I will always stand up and say this is not the look of health. It is the look of early death and an overburdened health care system."

Regarding the above....I think that one's weight is affected by one's lifestyle. But I also know a lot of it is genetic. Now, I can often look at an obese person and quite often tell whether their obesity is genetic or not. (Not universally, but I will often see someone with a light tall slender frame but extremely obese and one can tell that they're not inherently so. And at the same time, I can see some who are in fact obese but who eat less than you or I do. Probably less than most. But their body is malfunctioning.

The irony, is that if someone is anorexic and super thin, and so underweight they are out of shape, unhealthy and a risk for heart failure it seldoms gets the social chastisement that the reverse receives.

Now, my fiance is fairly slender. And although she usually is active, due to college she is much less physically active the past year or two. I know people who are obese and eat much more healthily than she does. But weigh nearly twice what she does.

To pronounce judgment, as society does, is pretty lame and sad. Sure, could they be better...yes...but they'd never ever be "thin". And society would judge them at best "okay". Well, if you put 5x the effort of most other girls to at best receive an "okay". Would you put the effort in or cave into depression from all the abuse.

People talk about prejudice. Prejudice in the workplace against blacks, hispanics, homosexuals, etc. The truth of the matter is that no single group receives more prejudice in the workplace today than those who are overweight. Those who are overweight are hired less often, receive less pay, and are often treated more lowly than their thinner colleagues.

I myself, am one who is over-weight but not quite obese. Now, I could with a bit of dietary management and some regular exercise probably drop 40lbs. However, even when I was in the U.S. Coast Guard Academy and in tip-top shape I was still 20lbs above my alloted height/weight ratio. I will never fit the mold. And frankly, there are reasons why. Excluding those who are dedicated weight-lifters I will on average beat 96% percent of males in an arm wrestling tourney. I have very strong muscle development. I will never be the stated 158lbs I should be according to measurements. Could I be better....MOST DEFINITELY. But could I be thin? Never....

Our society, does not measure weather you are at your proper weight but rather whether you are at Winona Ryder's proper weight. And then it judges you based on the difference as a failure.

To the doctor above, I would think as a doctor you'd quantify your statement a bit more. There are people who will never be thin because various glands, hormones, and bodily functions work differently for them. They eat less and simply gain more because their body conserves even more. Yes, it is unhealthy to be overweight. And it is good to encourage everyone to strive for their "healthy natural weight". But regardless, the individual person should still be respected. And in truth, our society greatly dis-respects people based on their weight and appearance. And I believe this is truly what L. Nimoy's project is helping to combat.

PS - You should also visit Leonard Nimoy's "Shekinah" project. I've followed his photography for several years now. Not the best in the world but a very decent and interesting take.
 10/21/2005 01:24:35 PM · #36
Originally posted by theSaj:
To the doctor above, I would think as a doctor you'd quantify your statement a bit more. There are people who will never be thin because various glands, hormones, and bodily functions work differently for them. They eat less and simply gain more because their body conserves even more. Yes, it is unhealthy to be overweight. And it is good to encourage everyone to strive for their "healthy natural weight". But regardless, the individual person should still be respected.


I had seemingly finally extricated myself. Do I risk jumping back in? :)

1) There are differences between people in how energy is stored. This is definitely true. There is, however, no difference in "metabolism". One gram of fat is worth 9 calories in everybody. One gram of protein is worth 4 calories in everybody. There is a formula (which I won't get into) to calculate the caloric requirement to support a specific body habitus (both weight, but also % fat, muscle, etc.) Over the long term those calories must be eaten to support that weight. No adult out there is eating 1500 calories a day, day in and day out, and is overweight. Physics does not allow it. We just often don't realize the caloric contents or serving sizes of some things we eat. (I was amazed to learn a Starbucks frappuchino has more calories than a Big Mac.)

2) Unfortunately, people who are genetically driven to be heavy are still as vulnerable to the health effects. It's an unfair, sucky, lame fact of life.

3) I do think that "less overweight" is better than "more overweight". So if that's all one can do, then by all means go for it. Most health effects are not seen until you are at least 20% over your ideal body weight (and more likely not until you are 40% over). So if you are sitting at 15% over, I'm not too worried about you. In that situation, the treatment may be worse than the disease (an important concept doctors often ignore).

OK, I'm going to duck and cover again. Let's recall I am an allergist. I am also board certified in Pediatrics so I am not completely speaking outside my expertise, but we should all be talking to our own doctors who, in turn, should be taking the time to talk to us about these issues (when it's easier just to overlook them).
 10/21/2005 01:26:47 PM · #37
I took a quick glance at LN's sight, decided I'll get fired from my job if I get caught by our ITS Dept. and guess I'll look again when I get home tonight. In the meantime anyone want some Reese's Peanut Butter Cups and then we can go take a brisk 2-5 mile walk?
 10/22/2005 05:48:20 PM · #38
This thread has bothered me ever since it was posted. For no reason other than I didn't really know what to think or say about it. So thanks to Laurie for posting it and forcing me into rare moments of thought. Now I've thought about it, I believe I have come to some view.

The photographer created some pictures that he wanted to create - and we can all speculate why - but it's just speculation so, IMO, best left alone. Anyway, the photographer or any other artist has every right to create what they want and to show it.

The flipside, however, is that every viewer is also entitled to their opinion about that art. If people find it gross and offensive, it seems to me that they are perfectly entitled to that opinion and that reaction. I don't believe that we should just label these poeple immature or brainwashed by the young waif society. It seems to me they are just as entitled to find these pictures gross as others are entiltled to find them inspiring, beautiful, giving us a message, or whatever else anyone wishes to read into them.

Thanks to the very valuable comments I get on DPC, I know that many people find many of my pictures boring, dull, etc. Others have liked one or two of them. There is no right or wrong - just different opinions. The two pictures below were found offensive by a number of people when I posted them on another site. I didn't think them offensive, but clearly others did. They are entitled to do so and I thank them for expressing their opinion and pointing out to me that some people may find these images gross. I' hate to start believing that I am somehow a better or a more (or less!) moral person just because my opinions are different from theirs.


10/22/2005 06:09:21 PM · #39
Numbers 59 and 42 are, rather obviously, a bitterly ironic (i think) remake of Newton's 'Sie Kommen'.
Newton's images symbolised female sexual power, rising to take over the men's world.
What's Nimoy seeing here? A new, different world power?

Message edited by author 2005-10-22 18:09:57.
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