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10/19/2005 10:29:56 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
I've been away for a couple of weeks so I'm seeing the sight with new eyes kind of but I long for the old days. This is not a rant, just an observation from someone who's been around for a while.
It seems like in the old days, the challenge would be announced and there would maybe be minor discussion for clarification about challenge descriptions. Yes somone would post up a definition of words used in the challenge description but the threads would be minimal and common sense would be used during voting. Lately, there are ungodly (please don't move me to the rant section cause I mentioned god) long discussions about what the challenge is about. Is this really healthy for the long term life of DPC?
It seems like in the old days that outtake threads would not appear before the voting period for the challenge was over. Now it appears that these threads are there before voting even begins. Even if they appear after voting begins but before the voting is over, is this healthy for the site?
It seems like in the old days that photogs would actually do research about a subject theme (especially technical type challenges) but now ask for examples moments after the challenge is announced. Is this a good thing? I think not.
Oh how I wish things would go back to the way they were and expect them not to... |
I have also been away a while this summer, but interestingly, my reaction when I started checking back in was "deja vu - nothing ever changes much". :) Same threads complaining about literal voters, same threads complaining about troll voters, same threads complaining about the interpretation of the challenge details (it depends on what the meaning of "is" is). Even Paul's complaint about outtakes (which I agree with) is old news. To me, checking back in here felt just like coming home - all the same family arguements from your childhood are still raging on. :)
I'm still not keeping up like I used to, so maybe some of the threads you're seeing have a different tone, but the topics were all the same back when I started. The intensity ebbs and flows, but its certainly not new.
Message edited by author 2005-10-19 10:30:54. |
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10/19/2005 10:39:45 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Sorry General, but you ...
Originally posted by GeneralE:
... I think if you want ... |
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I'm especially talking about the ... |
Thanks Paul - I've read your response (excerpts left above for ref) and understand now where you were coming from.
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10/19/2005 10:44:50 AM · #28 |
Question in general regarding outtakes...I have a few I'd like to share regarding one of the challenges that is currently being voted on.
Seems I shouldn't post before the challenge starts, posting during voting appears to be frowned upon, and if I post after the challenge is finished I'm whining or asking for second opinions (not to mention after the challenge is over most people are ready to move on).
So, the question is - when are outtakes courteously acceptable?
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10/19/2005 10:46:23 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
Originally posted by TooCool:
I've been away for a couple of weeks so I'm seeing the sight with new eyes kind of but I long for the old days. This is not a rant, just an observation from someone who's been around for a while.
It seems like in the old days, the challenge would be announced and there would maybe be minor discussion for clarification about challenge descriptions. Yes somone would post up a definition of words used in the challenge description but the threads would be minimal and common sense would be used during voting. Lately, there are ungodly (please don't move me to the rant section cause I mentioned god) long discussions about what the challenge is about. Is this really healthy for the long term life of DPC?
It seems like in the old days that outtake threads would not appear before the voting period for the challenge was over. Now it appears that these threads are there before voting even begins. Even if they appear after voting begins but before the voting is over, is this healthy for the site?
It seems like in the old days that photogs would actually do research about a subject theme (especially technical type challenges) but now ask for examples moments after the challenge is announced. Is this a good thing? I think not.
Oh how I wish things would go back to the way they were and expect them not to... |
I have also been away a while this summer, but interestingly, my reaction when I started checking back in was "deja vu - nothing ever changes much". :) Same threads complaining about literal voters, same threads complaining about troll voters, same threads complaining about the interpretation of the challenge details (it depends on what the meaning of "is" is). Even Paul's complaint about outtakes (which I agree with) is old news. To me, checking back in here felt just like coming home - all the same family arguements from your childhood are still raging on. :)
I'm still not keeping up like I used to, so maybe some of the threads you're seeing have a different tone, but the topics were all the same back when I started. The intensity ebbs and flows, but its certainly not new. |
To add to Scotts point the only reason you see longer threads and more threads is because there are more active people. If you remember dpc just went through splitting the open challenge due to the number of people entering them growing by large proporitions. The more a culture grows the more of it there is and that is all that is happening. DPC is very diverse in terms of backgrounds, belief's, morality stance and many other areas. You put all of these things together and you will have differences of opinion, debates, arguments, etc. Like Scott said it has happened since the beginning and now its just getting larger in scale.
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10/19/2005 11:01:19 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
...when are outtakes courteously acceptable? |
Use your best judgement. Someone will always complain about it, so go with your own common sense. |
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10/19/2005 11:02:43 AM · #31 |
Thanks Shannon! ;^)
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
...when are outtakes courteously acceptable? |
Use your best judgement. Someone will always complain about it, so go with your own common sense. |
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10/19/2005 11:23:31 AM · #32 |
it sounds like we need some serious thread-killing.
maybe all those people who don't like these certain threads can gang together and play 'wack-a-mole' on the forums. when a thread ya'll don't like pops up, all 10, 20, 50 of ya immediately hit the report post button, expressing great offense at the thread and asking for it to be deleted or moved to rant.
i agree that most of these 'hey, look at mine' threads that come up before/during are pretty selfish, but have no problem with the ones that come up after, especially when they seem to be genuine efforts to find out what went wrong. i really have no truck for the whining threads, especially from people who scored in the top 50, or scored above their average. |
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10/19/2005 11:36:38 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by rex:
I am seriously considering not renewing my mebership.....but it has nothing to do with anyone here. |
Oh sure, it's probably my fault. |
Nope not you or anyone else. Just real busy with the personal stuff now and it seems every thread I open now someone bitches. Getting kinda tired of it so I have started avoiding the threads more and more and just focusing on the essentials. |
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10/19/2005 11:38:51 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by rex:
...it seems every thread I open now someone bitches. |
Nicely illustrated. ;-) |
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10/19/2005 11:41:46 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by Palmetto_Pixels:
Originally posted by rex:
I am seriously considering not renewing my mebership.....but it has nothing to do with anyone here. |
What!!! You can't go anywhere!!! |
Didn't say I was leaving just not renewing my membership when it comes time. I still have a few motnhs to think if it is worth it to me now that I have already paid for smugmug's (unlimited storage) I would pay $25 just to read forums that I hardly read anymore. As you can tell I don't really enter challenges anymore. |
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10/19/2005 11:45:29 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by rex:
As you can tell I don't really enter challenges anymore. |
LOL... judging by my current score, maybe I shouldn't enter any more challenges.
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10/19/2005 12:18:10 PM · #37 |
| I like outtakes, I like to see others and have also posted mine before, during and after a challenge in various forums. They are interesting, useful, and legal. The only jeopardy I see posting before or during a challenge is if a visual connection can be made with your contest image, or if an image is obviously from a series of pictures which would give-away your identity. I do take issue with the inane preface people use to post them. I would prefer more streamlined outtake forum to contain more pictures, less excuses, requests for attention, and references to how anything will relate to your average score or supposed prestige. |
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10/19/2005 12:29:46 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
So, the question is - when are outtakes courteously acceptable? |
I disagree with your assessment of the post-voting response. To me, it makes perfect sense to have a thorough discussion of the just-completed challenge: why did the winners win, which were underrated, would this outtake have done better than this entry, etc.
If people weren't so busy parsing the semantics of the description of the upcoming challenge there would be plenty of time ... I just think we do it backwards: discuss the heck out of the challenge before it starts (giving away people's ideas and prejudicing the vote), and no time afterwards discussing the results. |
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10/19/2005 12:54:21 PM · #39 |
All valid points you make Paul, but it still doesn't change what really happens - right or wrong. Discussions of individual photographs, post-challenge, get drowned out most of the time, outtake or not. Especially for the first two days or so.
I'm thinking I'll take a different approach to my 'outtakes' as I'm not really concerned about how people might have voted on them - I just want to share some other images I gathered while shooting for a particular challenge. The 'outtake' label evokes an automatic comparative mindset for some people...perhaps they should fall under the 'Out and About' forum category? ;^)
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
So, the question is - when are outtakes courteously acceptable? |
I disagree with your assessment of the post-voting response. To me, it makes perfect sense to have a thorough discussion of the just-completed challenge: why did the winners win, which were underrated, would this outtake have done better than this entry, etc.
If people weren't so busy parsing the semantics of the description of the upcoming challenge there would be plenty of time ... I just think we do it backwards: discuss the heck out of the challenge before it starts (giving away people's ideas and prejudicing the vote), and no time afterwards discussing the results. |
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10/19/2005 01:01:40 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
All valid points you make Paul, but it still doesn't change what really happens - right or wrong. |
Hence my disappointment ... : (
Maybe it's the "auction" aspect of it I don't care for, with everyone competing and clamoring for attention. Perhaps if there was an automatic "Post your best non-challenge photo this week" thread where they could all go it would be better, but sometimes the home page is littered with "look at me" threads -- worse than the Rants.
At the least, I think there should be some limit on the number of threads any individual is allowed to start. |
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10/19/2005 01:03:54 PM · #41 |
That would certainly generate some creative thread hijacking! ;^)
Originally posted by GeneralE:
...At the least, I think there should be some limit on the number of threads any individual is allowed to start. |
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10/19/2005 01:17:53 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
That would certainly generate some creative thread hijacking! ;^) |
... leading to a spate of suspensions, and then perhaps civil war. At least that would be a distraction from the unfathomable votes I'm getting right now .... |
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10/19/2005 02:23:48 PM · #43 |
Outtakes posted before voting is complete are, to me, annoying, inconsiderate, and selfish...BUT, I don't think that *most* people posting them would if they knew that the community viewed them this way.
What is annoying about out takes before the voting ends is that they often take something away from others. Photos posted before the entry period closes can discourage someone who thought they had a good idea and execution. Photos posted during voting may not be anything like what the poster entered...but might be very similar to one of a different quality someone else entered in the challenge and so affect voters' opinions.
Personally, I tend to ignore those threads which are only asking how would this do, what would you give this, did I make a mistake... Mostly, I ignore them because the person asking already knows the answers: not very well, 5 but I love it, yes. I also find it absurd to guess what I would give any photo that isn't actually in the challenge! Once the anonymity is broken I may become prejudiced in my voting and since someone is asking and doesn't want their feelings hurt who's going to step up and say "I'd give it a 3"? |
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10/19/2005 05:18:55 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
... If people weren't so busy parsing the semantics of the description of the upcoming challenge there would be plenty of time ... I just think we do it backwards: discuss the heck out of the challenge before it starts (giving away people's ideas and prejudicing the vote, and no time afterwards discussing the results. |
I stopped reading the threads that talk about what the challenge topic and details mean. I don't want my entry to follow other people's ideas of what the topic calls for. (That would be infringing upon my creativity, lol.) I wish the posters would just let everyone interpret them for themselves. Too often it appears that people are trying to promote their own interpretation and get the voters to think that is the kind of shot that deserves a high vote. Self-serving is what I call it, but it borders on cheating. Sometimes it gets so offensive that I think the SC would be correct to lock or delete the threads/posts under the vote rigging rule.
"Any attempts to alter the point totals in any way for any photograph will result in immediate loss of account and a ban from the site." (emphasis from the original)
A few strict applications of that rule might get people's attention; and change their behavior some.
Edited to add: I have, on occasion, posted about what a topic means. But usually in an expansive way; to counteract other posts that I perceive as restricting people's approach to a challenge theme. I did so twice regarding the Wide Angle challenge but not with the intent of helping my entry. And now my entry is doing fairly well, so I hope it does not appear as though I am guilty of the same thing that I am criticising in others.
Message edited by author 2005-10-19 17:27:30.
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10/19/2005 05:33:21 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I wish the posters would just let everyone interpret them for themselves. |
Sometimes these threads are beneficial. If there hadn't been some confusion with the Grain challenge, the topic and details wouldn't have been reworded. If your particular interpretation had been "food" grain, then your entry could have been WAYYY off topic, and (perhaps unfairly) clobbered in the voting. Such threads also help to clarify technical terms (Bokeh, for example), and can guide those who who aren't as fluent in English. While I don't like people trying to guide the voters into a really narrow definition, a basic understanding of the challenge is necessary for a level playing field, and sometimes that takes more than just the topic and description. |
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10/19/2005 05:59:01 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by coolhar:
I wish the posters would just let everyone interpret them for themselves. |
Sometimes these threads are beneficial. If there hadn't been some confusion with the Grain challenge, the topic and details wouldn't have been reworded. |
You must admit that these threads are the exception, probably by a pretty wide margin.
Maybe we can run a "Special Rules" challenge which forbids pre-voting discussion of the topic, just to try it out. |
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10/19/2005 06:06:46 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Sometimes these threads are beneficial. If there hadn't been some confusion with the Grain challenge, the topic and details wouldn't have been reworded. If your particular interpretation had been "food" grain, then your entry could have been WAYYY off topic, and (perhaps unfairly) clobbered in the voting. Such threads also help to clarify technical terms (Bokeh, for example), and can guide those who who aren't as fluent in English. While I don't like people trying to guide the voters into a really narrow definition, a basic understanding of the challenge is necessary for a level playing field, and sometimes that takes more than just the topic and description. |
Grain was the exception to the rule. It was far too ambiguous as originally posted.
Just as your image's title is an integral part of your entry, interpreting the topic & details are an integral part of the "challenge". I know it may mean an additional burden to our volunteer SC/admins but I think making the topic's scope wider or narrower should be accomplished by tweaking the wording before posting the challenge, not afterwords in the forums.
Just my 2 cents.
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10/20/2005 12:04:31 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Maybe it's the "auction" aspect of it I don't care for, with everyone competing and clamoring for attention. Perhaps if there was an automatic "Post your best non-challenge photo this week" thread where they could all go it would be better, but sometimes the home page is littered with "look at me" threads -- worse than the Rants.
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First let me state that I apologize that this is a little off topic from the original post. That being said, I think statements like this might scare newcomers to the site. OK, yes some may abuse the threads at times with too many "look at me" threads. But also take into account that there are people out there who's works get lost in their portfolios and when they do something they are really proud of and want to share it to get others opinions then they should be able to do so without feeling guilty about it. Isn't that part of what makes this site so great? To be able to share your ideas and get input from people who share the same passion as you? As for outtake threads, I really don't see too much wrong with them after the challenges have started. If your opinions are swayed so much by thread then you shouldn't be reading those threads. I think some people have a hard time deciding what photos to pick, and would really like to get others opinions. I don't think it's all about "look at me" "Look at what I did" "Tell me you love it". Some people would just like others opinions if they felt like sharing. I personally enjoy outtake threads, just more cool photos to look at. OK, yeah maybe they shouldn't be started until after the challenge ends but is it really going to make that much of an impact on scores... really??? I would certainly hope not. Oh, and I also like the idea of the "Post your best non-challenge shot for the week" thread. :-) ** I will now step off my soapbox and return to browsing my regularly scheduled threads **
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10/20/2005 12:09:12 AM · #49 |
Nice choice of word jen! I wish I had the vocabulary, or the patience to say that! Kudos, and mahalo!
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10/20/2005 12:49:29 AM · #50 |
| "the old days"...I am back in nola now, and how I lament the old days. Wilma spurns her frisky teasing turmoil as I wonder if I will yet again pack up for another evacuation. I say...drink a bottle of wine...turn up the tunes...and appreciate the NOW. We have no control. Just enjoy. |
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