BLOW - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

09/29/2005 10:44:39 AM · #1

mmm seems like a good word to get attention to the thread... i would go to a thread labeled blow lol...

Ok now for the question...

I cannot seem to avoid getting blown highlights in a lot of my images (especially landscapes). I have learned the manual functions of my camera and no matter what I set the camera at it doesn't seem to handle the difference in dark/light subjects.

I see it mostly when I have a darker landscape and a bright cloudy sky or on people when they have dark hair and bright sun spots reflecting, etc. I try to point the AF square as horizontally/vertically correct as I can to try and get a good DOF. The camera determines the shutter speed, which sucks I want to set it manually. It seems like if I did the AF pre-click on the brightest spot and then re aligned the shot it would capture better. I tend to get a lot more noise in the shot when I do this and alot of times the colors run flat on all subjects instead of just the hot spots.

I was hoping I could get some experience they could share with me. (NOTE: I have a Canon S2 IS, which is not an SLR) If the answer is buy an SLR thats fine, but otherwise any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Dr.Confuser

Nikon D800

09/29/2005 11:31:31 AM · #2

Here are a few ideas: 1) Check your metering mode and possibly adjust that. 2) Also consider using EV Comp to reduce the exposure somewhat. 3) If your camera will shoot raw, try that and adjust exposure in Photoshop or a RAW import program. 4) Meter and expose for the highlights and adjust the darks using Photoshop Shadow/Highlight.

Good luck.

Message edited by author 2005-09-29 11:32:31.

brianlh

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

09/29/2005 11:32:12 AM · #3

Sometimes that's just part of photography - if you expose for the highlights, you get noise and lost detail in the shadows.. if you expose for the shadows, you can't always do much about the blown highlights :(

If you want to avoid blowing out the sky, try pointing the camera at the sky before pressing the shutter button in halfway.. this should meter for the light in the sky, but will end up with a loss in detail in the shadows if they're too different in stops of light.

BobsterLobster

Fujifilm FinePix S3 Pro

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/29/2005 11:59:21 AM · #4

Reduce contrast settings on your camera. This means your photos won't look as good straight from the cam, but you'll get a wider dynamic range.
Unfortunately, this is a problem with shooting digital, especially p&s. You can get around it with a DSLR by using a polariser when there are no clouds.

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

09/29/2005 12:24:16 PM · #5

For landscapes with bright, featureless skies, try using a graduated neutral density filter which will reduce the contrast between the sky and landscape. You can then meter off the landscape and adjust exposure with Exposure compensation to your vision.

kirsty_mcn

Olympus E-500 EVOLT

Olympus 17.5-45mm f/3.5-5.6

09/29/2005 12:27:50 PM · #6

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

grrr! i just spent 5 minutes finding out if his camera had a lens thread for filters, then i came back and you'd beaten me to it!!

anyway, i second that. get your hands on a graduated filter, it works wonders ;)

Mick

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/29/2005 12:28:45 PM · #7

You may want to have a look at this LuminousLandscape article:
Three Approaches to Expanded Dynamic Range When Shooting With A Digital Camera

09/29/2005 12:32:14 PM · #8

Dude, I feel your pain. I have been using P&S cameras for a while and every time I get my hands on a DSLR, it makes my wallet get all itchy. Uhh, that's metaphorical by the way.

I'm sorry to say, but you are dealing with a few factors. Primarily:

Noise: The sensor on our cameras is one of the smallest sensors available in ANY digital Camera. As such, the noise IS going to be present in ALL shadows regardless of what ISO you are at. This sets a serious limitation on your shooting right there. This is a common problem of all Big Zoom P&S cam's due to physical limitations. The methods used by the cameras to get around this do vary, but the physical limitations do not.

Solution - Neat Image does a really nice job of noise removal. There is a trade-off though. The more noise you have, the harder NI works. This makes the image a little plasticky in feeling. Not to worry, noise will be present in the shadows, but it isn't usually too strong.

Dynamic Range: Think of the sensor sites as buckets. Bigger buckets are better equipped to deal with more water. Bigger sensor sites can deal with higher top ends and are usually coupled with better detection at lower levels. This means more dynamic range. Dynamic range is the range of ability of the sensor/film to capture detail at different light levels. Some of the newer DSLR's are getting up to 9 stops different. I'd say it is pretty safe to say that the S2 is a fair bit shy of that.

Solution: (Well, you didn't want to go down this road, but here it is anyhow.) There isn't one. These are limitations of your camera. You know you have surpassed the limitation because of a blown highlight.

The only way to proceed is to change the way you view limitations. There are certain situations which are actually impossible to shoot. Good photographers find ways around this.

Looking at your portfolio, I noticed there was a picture that had this problem that was taken of a red acura with a bright sky and ocean behind it. The reason the sky was blown wasn't because it was too bright, it was because it was too different from the light on the car. You were shooting on the shadowed side of the car and the bright side of the sun...

You had 3 choices (please note that this is based on my personal abilities and is hardly exhaustive):

1: Shoot the other side of the car which would have had the benefit of the bright light source and find another way to describe your vision (maybe shooting the reflection which looked pretty good on this side - it is also possible the sun was already putting some reds into the sky). This is not very helpful because the shot you wanted to make won't get made, so I thought I'd get it out of the way first.

2: Wait. If your light is too harsh, come back in the eveningtime when light is notably softer and mellower. The S2 does a really good job of auto white balance (although not perfect of course) under these circumstances and I have some gorgeous evening shots. There is often a lot of really great light just AFTER the sun has gone down and while it is going down. These lighting moments are excellent when facing the ocean with it's low horizon, but can also be used to great advantage when a mountain is being cumbersome.

3: Check White Balance. When the evening light is really bright like when you point the camera towards the sunset, as in that picture (you mentioned it was already evening when you took it), sometimes the camera will change the Auto White Balance and throw things off. I find that sunset shots are very challenging to Canon's AWB. I also find that when the camera is having difficulty with white balance, it will have difficulty with getting correct exposure (watch indoor tungsten shots too) and focus.

4: Light the car. This is the most difficult thing to do. Really. You can either light an object with a direct light source or a diffuse one. The more direct, the more harsh reflections you will have. The more diffuse, the more light you will need. That can be a WHOLE LOT of light! A car is a pretty big subject to be lighting as well. To do it without blown reflections requires even more light with diffusion. Having it on the beach.... Remember, you will need to bring the entire surface of the car up to within a few stops of what is being put out by the SUN.

How do you figure this out?

Some people use light meters. I never learned how to do that. I'm digital only really. A simple way is to point the camera at the bright area in AV mode (using Spot metering, you can set this pretty easily, press the button just under the FUNC button to cycle it. If I recall correctly, that is also used as AE lock if pressed while the shutter button is half-pressed - check the manual if it is important to you - I use the AF lock and let the camera set exposure on each shot because the AF is harder for the camera to do in most cases) and see what the exposure is. Then, point it at the darker subject and see what the exposure is. This will tell you how many stops apart they are. For example, if the sky is 1/800th and the car is 1/125 is around 4 stops - probably too much difference for our camera. A quick couple of test shots at either end and in the middle ought to tell you.

Pointing at the sky in your car picture probably would have pulled around 1/3000 or more at F4.0. Pointing at the car would probably have pulled around 1/125 to 1/200. Those are rough guesses, but you really can't have your cake and eat it too.

A couple of caveats for you with this camera:

1. Be careful using apertures over 4 and especially careful using apertures over 5.6. There is noticeable loss of sharpness and fine detail due to diffraction limitation effects. This is due to teeeeeny tiny pixels.

2. Noise also starts to show up when you increase shutter time over around 1/2second.

I hope the information is helpful and accurate. Being a good photographer isn't just about knowing what buttons to push on a camera. It is also about knowing what decisions to make about the subjects.

09/29/2005 12:32:18 PM · #9

SWEET! Come back from lunch and I have great suggestions. I should have specified that my camera does have the capabilities to use filters, converter lens and a few other things. The problem I am having with the polarizer and ND graduated is they are female adapters. The canon converter that goes with this camera is also a female adapter so I need to find a 52/52mm coupler to make those filters work. So far it seems impossible to find.

Thanks again for the great ideas!

Canon EF 55-200mm f/4.5-5.6 II USM

09/29/2005 12:37:00 PM · #10

I don't know which company you went with for the adaptors. Check lensmate. They make the only adaptor that fits right for the A80/A95, so I would assume they do a good job of the one for the S2. I haven't bought yet, but I will soon. I think they also sell filters that go with it. I would be surprised if they were wrong threaded.

Luminous Landscape has some great information as does Cambridge in Colour.

orussell

Canon EOS Rebel T6s

09/29/2005 12:42:39 PM · #11

Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

Sometimes you can get third party polarizers (and other filters) with adapters for specific cameras (Tiffen springs to mind). Some OEM even make these accessories themselves.

Message edited by author 2005-09-29 12:43:08.

09/29/2005 12:43:51 PM · #12

Eschelar... I made that last post before I got to read your response!

Great detail and much appreciated knowledge. I totally agree with you on all points. I had never thought to check the stop difference, but it makes total sense. It makes me sad, but your right about the f/stop. I tried taking a lot of 8.0 photo's and it really doesn't do much for the image.

lensmate - I just bought a crap load of stuff from them to try out. I got a wide angle, telephoto and macro converter lens; 3 filters (ND reg, UV, Polarizer) all three work except the polarizer which has the wrong threads and so does the graduated ND filter; i also picked up some batteries and the camera adapter.

Lens - I haven't got to use yet they just came in yesterday
Filters - UV, ND work great but its a struggle to find the right light so far.
Adapter - Works great! It has a female end, which means all lens and filters must be male ends. UNLESS: you can find a 52mm/52mm coupler.

The only hinderance I have found so far is the coupler issue. Just becareful if you buy a lens that it has a 52mm or 58mm end so that it fits the adapter. If you have more questions about the lens shoot me a PM and I will let you know what I think of them as I get to use them.

09/29/2005 01:03:01 PM · #13

Good to know about the Lensmate Adaptor. I will keep that in mind when planning my next purchase.

I am surprised that you are having such difficulties. Did you tell lensmate that you were having this problem? That seems like real crap customer service if they sold you a polarizer that isn't appropriate for the adaptor you bought with it.

You did get the circular polarizer right?

PS. The technique on Luminous Landscape is really good, but requires a tripod to use and requires that your subject isn't going to move much, so watch out for wind. I have a really cheap tripod that I like. Here is a technique for adding extra stabilization to a tripod. I have given a lot of thought as to how to do this on the cheap.

There is a thing that you can pick up at a pet store that looks like a big corkscrew. It is for attacking pet leads to when there isn't anything nearby. You can take some fairly strong, but not too thick (quarter inch?) nylon rope with you and loop it through the handle of the corkscrew. You can loop this around various sturdy parts of your tripod and tighten the corkscrewn into the ground for a much more stable platform. If you really want to torque it up, you can grab a pen and put it in the rope/string and twist it like a tourniquet. This will tension the tripod against the ground and make it a fair bit more stable. This will mimic the effect of weights which are a pain to lug around and not always available in the right dimension.

PPS. I kept this in your thread because I felt there might be more information here that might be useful to other readers. I'm more than happy to use PM's tho for other things.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/29/2005 01:15:48 PM · #14

Great stabilization suggestion!

I just sent lensmate an email and will let you know what I find out. It is a circular polarizer!

Hopefully they sent me the wrong threading and have a solution. Otherwise I will have to find a coupler or another site for a polarizer and graduate ND.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

09/29/2005 01:48:15 PM · #15

Besides the pet-tethering screw, you can also use some tent stakes. Weights are handy for places where you don't have suitable soil, e.g. concrete or a floor. If you carry a moderate-sized drawstring bag with you, you can improvise weights out of whatever's lying around by putting them in the bag.

If you'ree without a tripod, someone recently reminded me of the trick of screwing a small eyebolt into the hole of the tripod mount, and attaching a piece of cord which you then stand on. Pulling up on the camera against the tension of the cord can add considerable stability to the whole system.