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09/15/2005 04:18:48 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
If a non-subjective standard could be induced, no voting would be necessary. We would give the photos to the SC, they would use the objective standards to grade the photo and we would have the results in 24 hours with no opportunity for debate.
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Honestly I would belive more in a vote of a jury made of recognized photographers, and artists, or anyone with art background than a vote of the majority. |
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09/15/2005 04:30:07 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Honestly I would belive more in a vote of a jury made of recognized photographers, and artists, or anyone with art background than a vote of the majority. |
But that would take all the fun out of it! ;^)
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09/15/2005 04:32:45 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Honestly I would belive more in a vote of a jury made of recognized photographers, and artists, or anyone with art background than a vote of the majority. |
But that would take all the fun out of it! ;^) |
Yea, I'm helpless, I can't see photography as fun I always take it seriously. Some would say too serious. But you are right, fun would be out, these jurys tend to be real nazzi's often. |
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09/15/2005 04:33:20 PM · #154 |
I personally think the jury should match the prize. If there were cash prizes for certain competitions, yeah, I could see having guest jurors for certain competitions. In my observation, I think what many people are asking for is the ribbon to mean a lot more than perhaps what it is intended (and that can only truly be determined by those that run this place). And even with jurors, there's always going to be some accusation of favoritism anyways. No matter what is done or how good it's set up, there's going to be something people will bitch about. Humans. We've been perfecting it for millenia now :)
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Honestly I would belive more in a vote of a jury made of recognized photographers, and artists, or anyone with art background than a vote of the majority. |
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09/15/2005 04:36:49 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by sestevens:
I personally think the jury should match the prize. If there were cash prizes for certain competitions, yeah, I could see having guest jurors for certain competitions. In my observation, I think what many people are asking for is the ribbon to mean a lot more than perhaps what it is intended (and that can only truly be determined by those that run this place). And even with jurors, there's always going to be some accusation of favoritism anyways. No matter what is done or how good it's set up, there's going to be something people will bitch about. Humans. We've been perfecting it for millenia now :)
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True. But you know this is interesting, I wonder if tehnicaly it is possible and if people would like to once have a challenge, where to invite a few recognized photographers as jury, and majority would have no right to vote? I think an experiment like that would really be fun.
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09/15/2005 05:49:16 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Originally posted by sestevens:
I personally think the jury should match the prize. If there were cash prizes for certain competitions, yeah, I could see having guest jurors for certain competitions. In my observation, I think what many people are asking for is the ribbon to mean a lot more than perhaps what it is intended (and that can only truly be determined by those that run this place). And even with jurors, there's always going to be some accusation of favoritism anyways. No matter what is done or how good it's set up, there's going to be something people will bitch about. Humans. We've been perfecting it for millenia now :)
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True. But you know this is interesting, I wonder if tehnicaly it is possible and if people would like to once have a challenge, where to invite a few recognized photographers as jury, and majority would have no right to vote? I think an experiment like that would really be fun. |
As an "experiment" it would only work if both groups voted, but the results were tabulated and displayed separately. |
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09/15/2005 06:05:20 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
I recently seen a documentary about how responsive some animals are to colors and images. A monkey was used and the monkey clearly responded with happiness to beautiful and colorful images. If it's like you say, pure raw emotion, if it's only subjectivity, than what makes us different from that chimp? What do you think some folks do for years and years in art schools and university's. You know.. stuff like the rule of thirds, color contrasts, and such but that really such a minor part of it. There is so much more to it than that.
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Oh no, I'm not saying it's only subjectivity, I'm just saying it shouldn't be completely devoid of it.
(Although I do sometimes wonder what makes some of us different from chimps. ;) ) |
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09/15/2005 06:10:42 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Originally posted by sestevens:
I personally think the jury should match the prize. If there were cash prizes for certain competitions, yeah, I could see having guest jurors for certain competitions. In my observation, I think what many people are asking for is the ribbon to mean a lot more than perhaps what it is intended (and that can only truly be determined by those that run this place). And even with jurors, there's always going to be some accusation of favoritism anyways. No matter what is done or how good it's set up, there's going to be something people will bitch about. Humans. We've been perfecting it for millenia now :)
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True. But you know this is interesting, I wonder if tehnicaly it is possible and if people would like to once have a challenge, where to invite a few recognized photographers as jury, and majority would have no right to vote? I think an experiment like that would really be fun. |
As an "experiment" it would only work if both groups voted, but the results were tabulated and displayed separately. |
I belong to another online group in Australia where this is the exact system. It is run by a prominent Camera Club and they use a number of highly respected invited Judges from within the camera Club community on a rotated basis.
With this system you will quite often see a complete different set of place getters from the popular vote compared to the Judge voted. |
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09/15/2005 06:40:44 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by azoychka:
I should think that the standards that are set by objective analysis of a photograph would more than supply a healthy and lively debate on the calibre of a piece of work......let alone the technical skills utilized... |
Okay, I see what you mean...you mean that saying it makes you 'feel good' and that it's 'beautiful' doesn't provide any means for objectivity. You want to know why it's beautiful...what part makes you feel good.
For example, "the warm colours and simple elements make this photo feel good and it's beauty is compounded by the wonderful leading lines..."
right? |
Let me analyze my own image and try to identify why so many people find it "beautiful" in reasonably objective terms. Such an effort is doomed to failure, of course, but...
Why do I think this picture is "beautiful"? Let me count the ways...
1. It has a promising beginning because it incorporates water, land, and sky, the three physical components of of our environment.
2. It has a wonderful blend of darkness and light across the two main diagonals of the image (lower left/upper right and lower right/upper left): the result, coupled with the nearly centered horizon, introduces dynamic elements into a "centered" composition and gives subtle tension to the whole.
3. The incorporation of opposed colors on the color wheel in a dynamic interplay gives a contrasting textural feel to the whole; it's "rich" in colors.
4. The unexpected, luminous green in the midst of what would otherwise be a palette of light and dark in blues and yellow-oranges offers visual relief and depth of luminosity.
5. The single, man-made element (the boat) in this natural landscape is very eloquent, but it's small enough not to overpower the image; it's a "grace note" that fits man into the environment very subtly.
6. There's a pronounced "leading line" from lower right to slightly left-of-center that encourages the viewer to get "lost" in the landscape, a visual journey.
7. In general, the image is almost-but-not-quite symmetrical, balancing diagonally opposed areas of light and dark against horizontally distributed dark masses in a most enticing fashion, creating a composition of soothing regularity but slightly edgy vibrance that keeps the eye moving through the image and drinking all the details of it.
Conclusion: the image is "beautiful" because it respects my visual intelligence; it's not cut and dried, it's not composed according to a formula, it mixes and matches elements and modes to generate a compelling whole that makes me, the viewer, wish I had been there to see such grandeur-in-the-making.
I apologize for being so presumptuous as to dissect my own image, but I believe there are certain, relatively objective "pointers" that can identify why an image appeals to so many people.
Robt.
Message edited by author 2005-09-15 18:53:15.
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09/15/2005 06:49:45 PM · #160 |
Would that every photo received that level of attention, whether to comment on those types of elements, or the lack thereof ... nice job.
Message edited by author 2005-09-15 18:50:02. |
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09/15/2005 06:56:28 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Would that every photo received that level of attention, whether to comment on those types of elements, or the lack thereof ... nice job. |
Every so often I'm moved to make critiques exactly liek that, but they require "living" with the image for some time, and thus require a serious commitment of effort and sensibility. In this case, of course, I was already committed (it's my image, after all, and maybe the best I've made this year), so I was able to articulate my feelings easily. I think there are a number of people that could point to similar critiques I have made of their images. I wish I had made more, but it takes a certain state of mind to pull them off; they're either "here, now" or they're not, the pace of this site is so fast.
R.
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09/15/2005 07:06:57 PM · #162 |
| I sometimes put comments like that in the "Other Information" section when I submit the photo -- I usually have a good idea about what people aren't going to like, and I want to "document" that they are actually deliberate, reasoned (maybe not well-reasoned!) choices. |
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09/15/2005 07:30:24 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by mk:
(Although I do sometimes wonder what makes some of us different from chimps. ;) ) |
Me too. I saw a movie once called "Waking life" where a guy says us people are so many but only few of us manage do reach above the level of superchimpanzee. He was refering to guys like Einstein, Freud and such dudes. All the rest of us are just superchimps. I really liked that.
You see people we can have civilized discussions even in the Rant forum without nobody attacking nobody and nobody turning it into fluff. It is possible, already there is some god things comming out of it. A few great ideeas:
1. the one with flags under our names in the forums, wich is just great.
2. we should once experiment to invite some recognized photographers to jury a challenge, I'm sure some will not be interested but some of them would be more than happy to participate. I don't know how it can be done tehnicly it's cool the way generalIE says both site voters and professional jury in paralel that's also fine. I think it ois a good ideea that we should try once.
Also a great indepth critique to a photo appeared, even if it's impossible to do that on every entry on every challenge for obvious reasons, it made me realise how ignorant I am sometimes. When you look at an image for 3 seconds, you can aford more when you plan to vote 400 images in 1 day, you can't comprehend only that thing I was telling mk about "the impact" nothing else. To recive all the other information an image has to give you as bear_music says you have to "live" more with an image. However this opened my eyes and I promise to try to do that sometimes to some images every now and then to leave one elaborate indepth critique. That can make you realise so much more than when you just look at an image for 3 seconds.
If yesterday I was drawing some preety bad conclusions I really go to sleep happy today. Good useful debates can be made on this site even in the Rant forum. That's so beautiful.
Message edited by author 2005-09-15 19:33:19. |
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09/15/2005 09:33:15 PM · #164 |
That's very sweet frumo. Really. Sleep well.
Robt.
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09/15/2005 10:01:21 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by azoychka:
That makes it a 'beautiful' and 'feel good' photo for you but why is it a 'GREAT' photo? Why a '10'? |
I give a 10 to any photo that makes me go "Wow! I wish I had taken that! I wish I was able to SEE that!"
100% subjective. After I have rated all the images, mostly 3-8, I go back and see which ones I think are better than the rest. In my own opinion. If all shots are technically perfect, you have to rate on the ones that you have a connection to. 9 is for connection, 10 is for awe.
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09/15/2005 10:16:28 PM · #166 |
Well done bear_music you have done a nice job of critiquing your photo. You have given all that you think is good about it, now, I'd love to hear how you might make it even better? What have you learned here and elsewhere that you would apply to this photo or any other (in the future) that might make it even better?
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09/15/2005 10:57:33 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by azoychka:
Well done bear_music you have done a nice job of critiquing your photo. You have given all that you think is good about it, now, I'd love to hear how you might make it even better? What have you learned here and elsewhere that you would apply to this photo or any other (in the future) that might make it even better? |
That particular picture I don't think I'd change, except that the horizon is just a smidgen off square so I'd rotate it a tenth of a degree. There might be things I wish were slightly different but they are out of my control as nature is in command of the cloud formations and the ripples on the water. I have several variations of it shot over a span of 15 minutes or so, including some with the sun actually above the horizon, but this one seemed strongest to me by far.
Robt.
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09/16/2005 02:28:02 AM · #168 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
That's very sweet frumo. Really. Sleep well.
Robt. |
Thanks, I had a great one. Add to the list of accomplishments a "speed challenge" :)) |
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09/16/2005 10:44:22 AM · #169 |
Thanks bear_music it is nice to hear, both what you feel works and what might work better. frumoaznicul I'd like it if you would critique one of your photos too............
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09/16/2005 10:50:56 AM · #170 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
7. In general, the image is almost-but-not-quite symmetrical, balancing diagonally opposed areas of light and dark against horizontally distributed dark masses in a most enticing fashion, creating a composition of soothing regularity but slightly edgy vibrance that keeps the eye moving through the image and drinking all the details of it. |
You forgot to comment on the bouquet. |
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09/16/2005 10:55:03 AM · #171 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by bear_music:
7. In general, the image is almost-but-not-quite symmetrical, balancing diagonally opposed areas of light and dark against horizontally distributed dark masses in a most enticing fashion, creating a composition of soothing regularity but slightly edgy vibrance that keeps the eye moving through the image and drinking all the details of it. |
You forgot to comment on the bouquet. |
Now that you mention it, the bouquet is subtle yet oddly assertive, with a hint of fall-to-come and winter chill underlying a strong, earthy overtone of lazy summer days. The image is also slightly piny on the tongue, with a body evocative of wild beach plums and an almost-salty aftertaste that lingers on the palate :-)
R.
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09/16/2005 11:09:55 AM · #172 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by bear_music:
7. In general, the image is almost-but-not-quite symmetrical, balancing diagonally opposed areas of light and dark against horizontally distributed dark masses in a most enticing fashion, creating a composition of soothing regularity but slightly edgy vibrance that keeps the eye moving through the image and drinking all the details of it. |
You forgot to comment on the bouquet. |
Now that you mention it, the bouquet is subtle yet oddly assertive, with a hint of fall-to-come and winter chill underlying a strong, earthy overtone of lazy summer days. The image is also slightly piny on the tongue, with a body evocative of wild beach plums and an almost-salty aftertaste that lingers on the palate :-)
R. |
Excellent! - That got a lol .... :-) |
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09/16/2005 11:14:27 AM · #173 |
It is nice to like your own photo and to speak of it in friuty glowing terms but what is it that will make a photo unforgettable? What separates it from the millions and millions of photos out there?
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09/16/2005 11:29:29 AM · #174 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Now that you mention it, the bouquet is subtle yet oddly assertive, with a hint of fall-to-come and winter chill underlying a strong, earthy overtone of lazy summer days. The image is also slightly piny on the tongue, with a body evocative of wild beach plums and an almost-salty aftertaste that lingers on the palate :-)
R. |
It would seem you have discovered a wonderful vintage Bear, one that is indeed very pleasing to the palate. I have taken the liberty of sampling this "fruit of your labours" and must agree that it is indeed quite pleasing, and look forward to more of your offerings.
Happy shooting my friend and do have a great day. |
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09/16/2005 11:52:02 AM · #175 |
Originally posted by azoychka:
It is nice to like your own photo and to speak of it in friuty glowing terms but what is it that will make a photo unforgettable? What separates it from the millions and millions of photos out there? |
That was by way of an gentle "joke", friend. The poster was referring to similarities to a discussion of vintage wines, so I obliged him with an amusing play on that concept. As to the other question, I did my best to asnwer it in specific, non-emotional, technical terms in my long analysis, since this was what you had originally asked. The answer to this redirect of yours would vary according to each person who viewed it, as it's a personal, emotional response.
Robt.
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