photoshop layers - DPChallenge Forums

09/02/2005 01:54:28 AM · #1

im not too good with layers. i want to make a layre for each type of post processing step, i.e. on for sharpening, one for the border, one for dodging, contrast, etc...

is this a good idea? i would like to go back and check my steps in the future should i decide to alter one step.
how do i do this?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/02/2005 01:59:17 AM · #2

Yes it is a good idea ... yes it gives you maximum flexibility in returning to any earlier stage, yes it will soon make you file humongous. To ease the strain on RAM, you can periodically save what you have/like so far as a new (flattened) file, and then continue further steps on that new file.

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

09/02/2005 02:01:24 AM · #3

cool tip i didn't know that. thanks. im assuming id be saving it only as a photoshop psd file? is tiff ok? or anything with good (lossless) compression and a reasonable filesize?

faidoi

Pentax K10D

09/02/2005 02:25:55 AM · #4

Also nice to dedicate a separate harddrive for a scratch disk. Seems to make a big difference.

Message edited by author 2005-09-02 02:28:39.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/02/2005 02:43:43 AM · #5

Originally posted by reemas:

cool tip i didn't know that. thanks. im assuming id be saving it only as a photoshop psd file? is tiff ok? or anything with good (lossless) compression and a reasonable filesize?

While editing, you should be saving in Photoshop format -- it includes its own lossless compression scheme (note the two size figures in the box on the bottom-left of the image window).

Starting with Image-v1.psd you'd edit for a while. Then Save, flatten the image, and Save-As named Image-v2.psd and continue editing; Image-v1.psd (with its Layers) is still there if you mess up -v2. Repeat as often as necessary, although I rarely use more than one or two image layers and 2-3 Adjustment Layers.

Note that these techniques are not legal for any Basic Rules challenges, and may be illegal for Advanced as well, depending on the specifics for any particular image.

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

09/02/2005 02:54:37 AM · #6

whats the general difference between and adjustment layer and a normal layer?

faidoi

Pentax K10D

09/02/2005 02:59:11 AM · #7

Originally posted by reemas:

whats the general difference between and adjustment layer and a normal layer?

An adjustment layer can either apply to all layers underneath it or under particular layers. A normal layer cannot.

Message edited by author 2005-09-02 03:00:11.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/02/2005 03:14:03 AM · #8

Originally posted by reemas:

whats the general difference between and adjustment layer and a normal layer?

A Layer has pixels on it. An Adjustment Layer contains intructions for effects found under the Image > Adjust ... menu, such as Levels, Curves, and the Channel Mixer. This allows you to make changes in the settings for the effects, and to toggle the effect on and off to see how the effect looks.

In Basic, these Adjustment layers must be made in Normal Mode and without any selections of masks (check the rules under "Post-Shot Adjustments).

David.C

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

09/02/2005 02:45:01 PM · #9

Originally posted by reemas:

whats the general difference between and adjustment layer and a normal layer?

A normal layer sets pixel values -- adjustment layers don't contain values, they contain changes. For example, a pixel layer will state that Red is 58 in this pixel, an adjustment layer will state it is +3 or -7 or some other change to the value existing in the layer below it. If more than one adjustment layer is stacked on top of each other, the lower adjustment layer affects the value and then those above it. The actual changes made are likely to be much more complex, but the idea is the same.

David

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

09/02/2005 02:46:11 PM · #10

wouldnt is be better to just use a normal layer then, instead of an adjustment layer?

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

09/02/2005 04:59:13 PM · #11

Originally posted by reemas:

wouldnt is be better to just use a normal layer then, instead of an adjustment layer?

Not really, they are ciferent things. Lets say you want to adjust levels on you image. You can create an adjustment layer, make the adjustment and move on with editing, then later if you see that you need to readjust the levels, you can reopen the adjustment layer and start where you left off. Or delete the adjustment layer if it's no longer necessary. If you perform the adjustment on a layer containing pixel info, and don't use an adjustment layer, the changes are permanent unless you delete all editing steps taken since the change. Or you delete the layer that you made the change on. So really you have much less flexibility with a normal layre, and you also have to figure out how to blend that layer with the base layer.
In summary, adjustment layers are very powerful tools that greatly increase the flexibility of the editing process and reduce do-overs. Once you master them, you'll wonder what you ever did without them!

suprada

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Sigma 18-125mm f/3.5-5.6 DC for Canon

09/02/2005 05:10:35 PM · #12

So that would pretty much mean that the normal layers have no use right? But the fact that normal layers are still around would mean that there are some actions which can be performed only on normal layers and not on adjustment layers. Am I right in assuming so?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/02/2005 07:30:03 PM · #13

I use a normal layer for something like retouching. Use the clone toos with "Use All Layers" selected, and you sample from the main image, but "paint" onto the new layer, so your original is still intact underneath it. This is called "non-destructive editing" as your original pixels are preserved.

You can also copy the image (or part of it) to a new layer, apply a filer or other adjustment/effect, and then lower its opacity so that some fraction of the original shows through.

"Regular" Layers and Adjustment Layers are both supremely useful, just for different things.

Schuff

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

09/02/2005 08:01:26 PM · #14

Good thread. If I can throw a question in here regarding those layers.

My PS Elements allows me to do adjustment layers for alot of items under "Enhance->Adjust..." but this does NOT include things such as Adjust Shadows/Highlights/Remove Color.

I love the adjustment layers and see their value, but thats all I am familiar with. How would I apply the above features to a layer and not the base image? As you stated I would want to keep the original image in tact. If I create a new "Normal Layer" and apply highlights to it, how do I link it to the original?

David.C

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

09/03/2005 03:50:33 AM · #15

Just duplicate the original layer, apply the destructive editing to the duplicate and then change the opacity to 'blend' the edited version with the original. The opacity dictates how much of the current layer is 'solid'; for instance, a 100% opacity says the current layer is completely solid and nothing comes thru from the lower layers -- but a 75% opacity says 75% of what is visible comes from the current layer and 25% from the layer below it.

It is helpful to place the duplicated layer (after naming it something useful) at 75% opacity before applying any editing to it. With this set first, the effect of the editing can be increased by raising the opacity and lowered by reducing the opacity.

David

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

09/03/2005 04:57:49 AM · #16

At a more simplistic level, the use of "regular layers" is that much of what we do in photoshop is done TO pixels. We burn them, dodge them, clone them, blur them, sharpen them, apply filter actions to them, etc etc. Once these things are done, they can't be undone except by backtracking in history to before there were done, UNLESS they live on a separate layer of their own. If they do, you can either fade or delete the layer to reduce/eliminate the change.

So, for example, in a hypothetical image I have started out with adjustment layers for hue/saturation and levels, and I have those where I want them to be, at least for now. But I think the image is a little noisy and I want to smooth it out a bit with neat image. So I click on the Background (base) layer, then from the layers menu select "new" and make a "duplicate layer from background" which I name "neat". To this layer, which is on top of the BG but beneath the adjustment layers I apply neat image. If necessary, I will play with the opacity of this layer to reduce the effect of the neat image a bit.

Now I look at what I've got, and see that with neat image applied the contrast has gone down a little, so I reopen the levels adjustment layer and fiddle with that until it looks right again.

It might be that I decide the image needs a little sharpening as well. So I save this image, merge the "neat" layer with the BG layer, then do a save-as "image-title-v2". Then I make a new layer from BG, name it "sharp", and apply my sharpening to that one. Play with its opacity and layer mode as needed, fine-tune hue/sat and levels adjustment layers, and I'm done with this one.

So I save it, flatten it, resize it (if it's for DPC), and save-for-web.

That's the general workflow. I'll have separate layers for dodging, for burning, for sharpening, for noise reduction, for glow effects, for gaussian blur on selected areas, etc etc. A very complex image might have 15 or 20 layers and adjustmnent layers in its list and stretch in excess of 100Mb. Once I get it all figured out as to where I want the image, I'll peel everything down with "merge" so I just have BG, one duplicate layer with all the changes merged on it, and a couple adjustment layers, and that's the one I'll be saving as my master. I usually don't keep the really huge files all that long, a week or so while I work.

I periodically open my file trees with explorer and sort by size, checking to see if I've forgotten to delete some of these massive working files. I'll also do housekeeping to remove versions of the image that are out-of-date or redundant. All this is necessary to keep from hopelessly cluttering up my hard drive. When I'm really working hard on an image it's not unusual for me to have 20 saved versions of it lurking around...

So that's my caveat; these layers are great tools and absolutely indispensible to organized, orderly, fail-safe work flows, but they can REALLY eat up your storage space so you have to stay on top of them.

As long as you always clone off a copy of your original and only work on the copy, a perfectly acceptable workflow for routine, everyday, simple jpg images (family photos and the like) would go like this; adjustment layer/levels; adjustment layer/hue-sat; new layer from BG, clone distractions, merge down; new layer from BG, USM, merge down; check levels and hue/sat; you're done. Never more than two pixel-containing layers alive at a time. This keeps the file size smaller, speeds up operations, and is pretty straightforward once you knwo what you're doing.

It's late, I'm rambling. G'night, all.

Robt.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

09/03/2005 12:57:26 PM · #17

bear_music. 1st long post i ever finished reading. it was excellent!! thanks for taking the time to share that info, i know i benefitted a lot from it.

i do have a couple of quick questions:
1.) by merging down, does this reduce the filesize considerably?

2.) you always keep the original layer untouched? when you mergedown you do it to all layers except the original background?

3.) for the adjustment layer (contrast) in your example with neat image. why not make a normal layer instead of an adjustment layer? even if you have to change it later, can't you make the changes to the normal layer? i think im not seeing the benefit of the adjustment layer in that? i hope this isn't a bad question.

thanks to everyone.

Message edited by author 2005-09-03 12:58:12.

Schuff

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

09/03/2005 03:24:40 PM · #18

Excellent information. Thank you both for the informative thread.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

09/03/2005 04:42:52 PM · #19

Originally posted by reemas:

1. Every additional duplicate layer from BG increases the file size by the amount of the original file, more or less. If you have a 3Mb file and add a duplicate layer, you end up with a 6 Mb file. So yes, they can get HUGE when you have a lot of pixel-containing layers. At some point you want flatten them down. The adjustment layers add much less size to the file.

2. I never touch the original layer. At least not until I make a final, print copy, when I merge all the layers down onto the original.

3. Because the levels and other adjustment layers are above all the pixel-containing duplicate layers, their effects are seen on every layer beneath them. Each time you do somethign at the pixel level, you can toggle on and off the adjustment layers and see what's happening at the basic level, before applying adjustments. You can reopen any adjustment layer at any time and fine-tune the effect as things on the udnerlying layer change.

For example, when you apply USM you increase contrast to a certain extent, and you often want to tone down the levels adjustment to compensate for that. It's just more efficient to ALWAYS habe hue/sat, levels, selective color etc on separate adjustment layers, it saves a LOT of back-and-forth.

Sometimes I will do adjustment layers on selected portions of an image to bring them into compatability witht he rest of the image, and sometiems when I do that I will immediately merge the adjustment layer witht he udnerlying pixel-containing layer, especially if it's a small area of adjustment. But on images like landscapes where I have a sky selection and a land selection, say, I'll do hue/sat, levels, selective color and/or curves separately for each broad area, leaving me potentially 8 adjustment layers in the image, and these I will leave intact throughout the process, until I generate a final, to-print copy.

Even then I save the copy as a flattened print file, and keep the working copy with its layers intact. Never know when I have to jiggle things for a new printer profile, for example.

And, by the way, SAVE ALL YOUR SELECTIONS!

Robt.