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08/08/2005 02:02:51 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by blemt:
For every BradP, there are 5 guys like that. There's not an easy answer.
Clara |
You can't be serious? Do you honestly believe that for every caring father in this country there are 5 that will "use" their children inappropriately? I have a hard time accepting that. I believe that abuse is a rarity, in terms of percentages. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I believe by far the majority of parents would do anything to protect their children, and wouldn't dream of pulling deviant crap on them.
R. |
I agree with you as well Bear.. but what I think Blemt meant is that for every 6 people that *are* accused and go through the system, and are investigated and whatnot, that 5 of them are probably convicted or are actually doing something untoward, and 1 of them is an innocent being wrongfully accused, or maliciously accused. The cases of wrongful malicious accusations are, thankfully, quite rare and low, in general.
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08/08/2005 02:04:40 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by blemt:
For every BradP, there are 5 guys like that. There's not an easy answer.
Clara |
You can't be serious? Do you honestly believe that for every caring father in this country there are 5 that will "use" their children inappropriately? I have a hard time accepting that. I believe that abuse is a rarity, in terms of percentages. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I believe by far the majority of parents would do anything to protect their children, and wouldn't dream of pulling deviant crap on them.
R. |
I agree with you as well Bear.. but what I think Blemt meant is that for every 6 people that *are* accused and go through the system, and are investigated and whatnot, that 5 of them are probably convicted or are actually doing something untoward, and 1 of them is an innocent being wrongfully accused, or maliciously accused. The cases of wrongful malicious accusations are, thankfully, quite rare and low, in general. |
Ah, that makes sense. I couldn't BELIEVE she thought "that", LOL. Sorry, Clara. Thanx, Arty.
Robt.
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08/08/2005 02:11:02 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by blemt:
For every BradP, there are 5 guys like that. There's not an easy answer.
Clara |
You can't be serious? Do you honestly believe that for every caring father in this country there are 5 that will "use" their children inappropriately? I have a hard time accepting that. I believe that abuse is a rarity, in terms of percentages. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I believe by far the majority of parents would do anything to protect their children, and wouldn't dream of pulling deviant crap on them.
R. |
I tend to agree with you,bear_music,on this one...I MIGHT be persuaded to believe there's maybe 1 perv in every 50,000 or so,but to claim 5 out of 6 men are pervs is waaaaay off the wall!! |
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08/08/2005 02:13:16 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by elderell:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by blemt:
For every BradP, there are 5 guys like that. There's not an easy answer.
Clara |
You can't be serious? Do you honestly believe that for every caring father in this country there are 5 that will "use" their children inappropriately? I have a hard time accepting that. I believe that abuse is a rarity, in terms of percentages. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I believe by far the majority of parents would do anything to protect their children, and wouldn't dream of pulling deviant crap on them.
R. |
I tend to agree with you,bear_music,on this one...I MIGHT be persuaded to believe there's maybe 1 perv in every 50,000 or so,but to claim 5 out of 6 men are pervs is waaaaay off the wall!! |
And if you'd read the rest of the thread before posting, you'll see that we've put that little inaccuracy to bed.
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08/08/2005 02:14:12 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by elderell:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by blemt:
For every BradP, there are 5 guys like that. There's not an easy answer.
Clara |
You can't be serious? Do you honestly believe that for every caring father in this country there are 5 that will "use" their children inappropriately? I have a hard time accepting that. I believe that abuse is a rarity, in terms of percentages. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I believe by far the majority of parents would do anything to protect their children, and wouldn't dream of pulling deviant crap on them.
R. |
I tend to agree with you,bear_music,on this one...I MIGHT be persuaded to believe there's maybe 1 perv in every 50,000 or so,but to claim 5 out of 6 men are pervs is waaaaay off the wall!! |
See arty's and my posts preceding, he set me straight on what Clara was REALLY saying.
Robt.
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08/08/2005 02:18:39 PM · #81 |
Well, some seem to think if it amoung family, everything is OK....photos or whar ever. I was just refering to what I saw in this thread, not any particular post other than possibly the one below by vetruan. Sounds a bit like Michael Jackson to me.
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Does it matter WHO takes the photo of the child?
I think not...kiddie porn is kiddie porn......and most people know it when they see it. |
I'm confused as to whose post you're referring to. |
Originally posted by vtruan:
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Oh My. They might have thrown us in jail for this shot, taken my kids. It time to get PC folks off our backsides and forget the "Village".
Rightly said... If kissing a kid on th belly creates such a rucus what about this one..
they are surely bound to throw Imagineer in jail for this....
I think the pervert is in the minds of the people who report such things. They are sick at their minds and probably do not have the pleasure of having a kid themselves.
I have a cute daughter who sleeps with me, sometimes bathes with me, jumps all over me when I go home and I kiss her on her belly as that tickles her and she laughs... but is that me being a pervert? Modern world? No, actually it's an over cautious world.
Friends, don't get distracted with such news. Do what you do best... love your child in every and any way you do.
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Avi
"Photography is an art, camera is just a tool to realize it."
Digital Portfolio - Asit Verma
Message edited by author 2005-08-08 14:19:39.
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08/08/2005 02:23:09 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, some seem to think if it amoung family, everything is OK....photos or whar ever. I was just refering to what I saw in this thread, not any particular post other than possibly the one below by vetruan. Sounds a bit like Michael Jackson to me.
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I'm hoping you're not a father. If so, how do you show your kid you love them?
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08/08/2005 02:26:50 PM · #83 |
I won't make any judgement on what happened without seeing the photo. I think we all know that a photo can easily look like something it really is not.
A photo of someone kissing a baby's belly button could easily look like something much less innocent when taken from behind the baby. When the police came to investigate they may have found other stuff to lead them to beleive there was a problem. Who knows??? We don't have enough information to form an educated opinion on what happened.
People do this crap and they are dumb enough to take photos of it and send them in to get developed. Pedophiles do get caught this way.
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08/08/2005 02:34:56 PM · #84 |
Are you saying EVERYTHING is OK?
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, some seem to think if it amoung family, everything is OK....photos or whar ever. I was just refering to what I saw in this thread, not any particular post other than possibly the one below by vetruan. Sounds a bit like Michael Jackson to me.
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I'm hoping you're not a father. If so, how do you show your kid you love them? |
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08/08/2005 02:42:34 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by blemt:
For every BradP, there are 5 guys like that. There's not an easy answer.
Just a counter point for thought. :)
Clara |
Workers in health care face the same dilemma; it is more the over-reaction from law enforcement/social services which is the real problem, not so much the initial reporting my the lab.
However, if I had to bet, I'd have to guess that you have the proportions cited above switched.
And just how do you "make whole" the person whose reputation and job are ruined by a faalse accusation? Usually, the police won't even reimburse the cost of repairing your broken-in your doors. |
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08/08/2005 02:46:03 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by elderell:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by blemt:
For every BradP, there are 5 guys like that. There's not an easy answer.
Clara |
You can't be serious? Do you honestly believe that for every caring father in this country there are 5 that will "use" their children inappropriately? I have a hard time accepting that. I believe that abuse is a rarity, in terms of percentages. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I believe by far the majority of parents would do anything to protect their children, and wouldn't dream of pulling deviant crap on them.
R. |
I tend to agree with you,bear_music,on this one...I MIGHT be persuaded to believe there's maybe 1 perv in every 50,000 or so,but to claim 5 out of 6 men are pervs is waaaaay off the wall!! |
And if you'd read the rest of the thread before posting, you'll see that we've put that little inaccuracy to bed. |
I stand corrected!!(Subsequent replies aren't shown while one is typing a response to a previous one...) |
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08/08/2005 02:53:22 PM · #87 |
I agree, even a disgrunted spouse has destroyed many an innocent life, all because these alogations are taken as fact by cps.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by blemt:
There's not an easy answer.
Just a counter point for thought. :)
Clara |
Workers in health care face the same dilemma; it is more the over-reaction from law enforcement/social services which is the real problem, not so much the initial reporting my the lab.
However, if I had to bet, I'd have to guess that you have the proportions cited above switched.
And just how do you "make whole" the person whose reputation and job are ruined by a faalse accusation? Usually, the police won't even reimburse the cost of repairing your broken-in your doors. |
Message edited by author 2005-08-08 14:54:33.
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08/08/2005 03:15:36 PM · #88 |
I think half the problem is the strange beliefs (to my mind) that some people hold: namely that nudity = sexual and that genitalia = purely sexual objects.
I have had the argument about nudity (and touching between nude people) many many times before. Some insist that this cannot be anything other than sexual - that there can be no other motivation for touch of any areas of the body except hands, feet and faces that is not inherently sexual. I disagree very strongly. And I've seen quite a few examples in this thread that would suggest others feel the same as I do on this. And yet I do come across people all the time who cannot accept that nudity can be nonsexual - for example, people who believe that all nude photography is essentially pornographic, even if only mildly so, because, gasp, the model is naked and why would he/ she be naked if it wasn't too titillate? It's so far removed from my point of view that honestly I find it hard to even express why I disagree with it!
On another note, I think that culture DOES have a role here. In some respects (no, not all, don't misinterpret for the sake of misinterpreting, I know there is much about it that's very much physiological), sexuality is very psychological - what one person thinks of as sexual contact (because that's what that kind of contact is associated with for them) another person does not think of that way. I have come across people who believe very strongly that playing with other people's hair is deeply intimate, almost foreplay. I doubt anyone of you here would think twice if you saw a parent caressing their child's hair. So how would you feel if you were arrested for doing just that when holidaying somewhere abroad? As far as I know, that's not something that's illegal anywhere but it is something about which there are very very different attitudes. And I have read too that there are those who do not think of caressing babies genitals, for example, as sexual - that act is simply not associated with sexuality to them. Not everyone associates the touches that are applied to a baby with similar ones that may be used within the realms of adult sexuality even where it is the same bits of body involved.
I'm talking about the assumptions one leaps to - it's almost as though because some people cannot imagine doing a certain thing without it being sexual they cannot even conceive that someone else might feel completely differently.
Regardless of that, I do think it's valid to set absolute rules on this kind of stuff - it's up to any immigrant into a country to learn what THAT country's laws are and obey them. But there has to be some common sense applied in the application of the laws too?
And in the obvious cases it's obvious but... where does one draw the line on "inappropriate" touching of genitals anyway? Washing one's child's genitalia has clearly been deemed ok. Drying it gently with a towel? Is that ok? Rubbing cream onto it if it's dry? Sounds fine to me - but that last step if seen out of context seems to be the kind of thing that could get children taken away from their parents!!!
It won't be long before a father taking his kid into the urinals to pee will be accused of something indecent because - heck it involved, gasp, both of their willies being exposed at the same time!
OK I know this has been a real ramble with not very much logical flow and I am sure people will jump all over bits of it but... whatever.
Also, Bear, Brad, others who have been falsely accused, I'm so sorry. I cannot even begin to imagine.
Your stories brought to mind the huge Cleveland Child Sexual Abuse scandal in the late '80s. Most accusations (if not all, I don't remember in detail) were withdrawn but by that time families and indeed entire communities had been ripped apart and relationships irrepairably damaged.
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08/08/2005 03:20:53 PM · #89 |
There was a recent episode of 'Mersey Beat' - BBC Canada that covered the very issue of false accusation. A local teach was accused of child abuse and the accusation turned out to be totally false, yet the entire community had already made up their mind that the fellow was a bad egg. The cops were no help at all in the beginning but came to realize the truth in the end (a little too late).
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08/08/2005 03:27:37 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
There was a recent episode of 'Mersey Beat' - BBC Canada that covered the very issue of false accusation. A local teach was accused of child abuse and the accusation turned out to be totally false, yet the entire community had already made up their mind that the fellow was a bad egg. The cops were no help at all in the beginning but came to realize the truth in the end (a little too late). |
The trouble is that a) there are way too many who, even if the police themselves tell them IN person with ALL the details that the accused is definitely innocent they'll never believe it - there was smoke, there MUST be fire, MUST be.... (see Riggs post near the top of this thread) and b) if the situation involves kids being taken from their parents or people suspended from their jobs the damage done is not as easily rescinded as the accusation.
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08/08/2005 03:28:57 PM · #91 |
The other side of the story...
//www.azcentral.com/specials/special46/articles/0826cagedkids26.html
Message edited by author 2005-08-08 15:29:06. |
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08/08/2005 03:31:49 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
There was a recent episode of 'Mersey Beat' - BBC Canada that covered the very issue of false accusation. A local teach was accused of child abuse and the accusation turned out to be totally false, yet the entire community had already made up their mind that the fellow was a bad egg. The cops were no help at all in the beginning but came to realize the truth in the end (a little too late). |
The trouble is that a) there are way too many who, even if the police themselves tell them IN person with ALL the details that the accused is definitely innocent they'll never believe it - there was smoke, there MUST be fire, MUST be.... (see Riggs post near the top of this thread) and b) if the situation involves kids being taken from their parents or people suspended from their jobs the damage done is not as easily rescinded as the accusation. |
That's exactly how the show was portrayed. I'd have to agree. It's very hard to make a 180 degree turn on something that you've firmly come to believe.
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08/08/2005 05:17:36 PM · #93 |
Yes, it's quite true that one shocking form of child abuse is the caging of children, and it happens more than we realize. The problem was that Child Protective made a knee-jerk reaction and the system railroaded the mother, in the example I cited from personal experience. I knew these people; I stayed with them for days at a time. I personally never saw the child sleep in her "crate", although I saw her playing in it a couple times. It was like a little house for her, she had decorated it. She thought it wasn't fair that the DOGS each got to have their own little house, see?
I testified in this case, but it did no good. Their minds were made up. Their position was that providing a personal crate for the child was ipso facto "abuse". I thinkt hat's kind of silly, it was a cool little playhouse. Nobody'd think twice if she had a playhouse just a LITTLE bit bigger, out in the back yard, nor probably even if the damned CRATE was in the backyard and she played with it. Child protective was just POSITIVE that the mother used the crate for discipline, and that everyone, including the child (Stockholm Syndrome was actually mentioned!) was lying about it. They decided their version was the truth, and that was the end of it.
This was not a jury trial, btw; it was in front of a judge with no spectators. The mother (quite rightly IMO) decided that a jury trial would REALLY be bad for her daughter, and hoped (wrongly, as it turned out) that the judge would have some common sense.
I repeat, this was ridiculous, utterly ridiculous. Now, in retrospect you and I might say it's pushing things a little to let your child have a crate like a dog, that it might "look strange" to a lot of people, but honestly that never ocurred to the mother. I'm not even totally upset that the system saw fit to look into the situation; what upsets me is that there wqere was absolutely NO EVIDENCE of abuse, or maladjustment of the child, or any such thing at all, and they just didn't CARE. The mere existence of the crate and the child's statement that she occasionally slept in it was all they needed.
It seems plain WRONG to me. And it has NOTHING to do with nasty abusive a**h*le parents who keep their kids in filthy cages in their own feces and don't feed them and get drunk and party and ignore the kids. This was a mother and daughter (both exceptionally bright people) who did everythign together, who were a close-knit, loving family.
Robt.
Message edited by author 2005-08-08 17:18:30.
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08/08/2005 05:25:02 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Welcome to the United States, land of the free. |
Could not have said it better myself.
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08/08/2005 05:26:04 PM · #95 |
| Stop touching your children. |
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08/08/2005 05:28:54 PM · #96 |
Bear,
My point in posting that article was to point out that CPS fails both ways too strict and too soft. They have a tough job that I would never want. The consequence of failure is too high.
I didn't intend it to counter your experience as your issue sounds like an instance where they clearly got it wrong. |
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08/08/2005 06:01:17 PM · #97 |
Kavey... here we go again thinking alike....
I agree with your words totally...
I think that we (US specific) have reached a level of collective PC, BS insanity... we live in a land of not being able to hug your kids in public... where the kids (3rd graders) are handcuffed and sent to juvi for having a damn asprin in their pocket (that their parent GAVE them) ... and so on ad nausium.
The neocons are saying that the country is in a fall ... well this PC zero tolerance crap on both sides seems to me to be a major contributor to the slide.
my 2 cents.
peace out |
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08/08/2005 06:31:44 PM · #98 |
| Try Kindergardners being arrested. |
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08/08/2005 06:32:39 PM · #99 |
This is so sad, because I have been through the system and I know personally that it doesn't work. They take you away from your abusive family and put you in another and when your 6 months is up in that home they place you back at home with your abusive parents again. It is a stupid cycle that is never ending. I think it is lack of caring people. People complain about kids being abused but yet nobody wants to help them. It will never change. |
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08/08/2005 06:36:37 PM · #100 |
| Right on,nomad469.....//www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=254 and //www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/1114209482 |
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