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08/05/2005 05:24:48 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
... or we could just keep bumping it until they see it. Though, they may have RANT on ignore....... Probably not. ;o) |
Well, you US citizens, ( I got told off last time for calling you Americans!), will have to bump it over the next 8 hours for the Saj and then the Brits can take over for legal!
Can we cope with the statistics though? I got lost last time!
:)
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08/05/2005 05:26:36 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
... or we could just keep bumping it until they see it. Though, they may have RANT on ignore....... Probably not. ;o) |
Well, you US citizens, ( I got told off last time for calling you Americans!), will have to bump it over the next 8 hours for the Saj and then the Brits can take over for legal!
Can we cope with the statistics though? I got lost last time!
:)
P |
Don't call us US citizens either. We're Canadian, damn it!! ;oP
bump
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08/05/2005 05:26:39 PM · #28 |
Sorry Tom 2898, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. I'll really shut up now!
Goodnight!
:)
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08/05/2005 05:29:31 PM · #29 |
What happens in Chicago area in last 8 years:
- Dozens of factories closed
- No new schools are built
- existing ones are falling apart
- no new power plants
- gas prices are double
- no new hospitals
- existing ones only few can afford
- no new highways
- existing ones are parking lots for 4-5 hrs/day
- etc...
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08/05/2005 05:32:32 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Don't call us US citizens either. We're Canadian, damn it!! ;oP
bump |
Oh God got it wrong again! :P Sorry!
Sorry Tom AGAIN - just popped back to apologise to cpanaioti - REALLY going now!
:))
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08/05/2005 07:16:49 PM · #31 |
Here is another statistic you won't see on TV; Report: 108 Died In U.S. Custody.
For the most news covered war in history, all this torture and killing is really not making us look like the good guys.
At best, a terrible mistake was made. We should correct it and leave and let the Iraqi's take care of there own affairs now that Saddam is gone. We can still help without occupying the country. |
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08/05/2005 08:16:42 PM · #32 |
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08/05/2005 08:34:07 PM · #33 |
YEAH HERE WE GO AMERICA........
Let's spend all our money on other countries, when we close down factories here to import, close schools and create over-population problems in some, close down firestations and cut their pay, cut the pay of local law-enforcement officers, ... whatever...someone's doing stuff backwards.
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08/05/2005 08:44:19 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by deapee:
YEAH HERE WE GO AMERICA........
Let's spend all our money on other countries, when we close down factories here to import, close schools and create over-population problems in some, close down firestations and cut their pay, cut the pay of local law-enforcement officers, ... whatever...someone's doing stuff backwards. |
Well just don't forget to put your vote in the ballot and thing can change. I wonder how many other coutries get a chance to do that? |
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08/05/2005 09:23:24 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by pitsaman:
What happens in Chicago area in last 8 years:
- Dozens of factories closed
- No new schools are built
- existing ones are falling apart
- no new power plants
- gas prices are double
- no new hospitals
- existing ones only few can afford
- no new highways
- existing ones are parking lots for 4-5 hrs/day
- etc... |
These are our problems! as we go to the store buying the foreign products over the American products. We the people have created our own problems. We want stuff cheaper and we want alot of stuff.
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08/05/2005 09:53:31 PM · #36 |
Our soldiers and the contractors are busting their asses over there to try and get Iraq back to a state where they can leave and the Iraqis and their new leadership can take over a Country that will be much better off then when Saddam and his wonderful sons where in Power.
And what do the get. Bullets, bombs, rifles and rocket launchers all aimed at their heads. The insurgents are brutal.
Take politics and all the hatred about Bush out of it. Think and pray about the people over there risking their lives to help a country other then their own.
It makes me sick every times some teenager gets blown up. Instead of taking out your hatred, pray for those who are trying to do well. |
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08/05/2005 09:59:43 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by bcoble:
Originally posted by pitsaman:
What happens in Chicago area in last 8 years:
- Dozens of factories closed
- No new schools are built
- existing ones are falling apart
- no new power plants
- gas prices are double
- no new hospitals
- existing ones only few can afford
- no new highways
- existing ones are parking lots for 4-5 hrs/day
- etc... |
These are our problems! as we go to the store buying the foreign products over the American products. We the people have created our own problems. We want stuff cheaper and we want alot of stuff. |
What you say is true, but the industry and corporations are not going broke, they are just greedy and because our government has removed nearly all types of regulation from business, they can just move there production to other countries and exploit cheep labor, avoid taxes and still sell products at prices nearly as expensive as if the work had been done in the US by US workers. And yet, the US gov continues to give government subsidies and tax breaks to mega corporations that don't need them.
A result of all of this is that most all products used in America today are made elsewhere. If the world were to cut us off, we would have to rebuild our infrastructure to keep consumers with products. We are not able to sustain ourselves by ourselves. Weâre the most technologically advanced nation on earth but we canât even build our own computers without parts from other countries.
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08/05/2005 10:30:39 PM · #38 |
| I have one simple question here. How many of you complaining here in this thread has spent a day in your life serving your country? I find it shameful that you will use the deaths of our service members to try and push your point across. They served their country with honor and dignity and you feel have the right to use there deaths to push you agenda? Stop, sit down and think about it. Think about those men and women who volunteered to serve their country. If you don't think going to Iraq and fighting for freedom isn't serving this country then you are foolish. They may not have found weapons of mass destruction over there, but they did get rid of a lot of people who would like nothing more than to kill every single one of us Americans and everyone else who doesn't agree with their beliefs. So, you can cry about oil and what not, but remember, these men and women died for their country because they felt it was their duty to protect YOU and your freedoms. Keep them out of your political rants unless you were over there with them. |
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08/05/2005 10:45:07 PM · #39 |
well said todd. Those who complain about threads such as this, if you dont want to read it dont click on the thread. simple as that
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08/05/2005 11:06:46 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
What you say is true, but the industry and corporations are not going broke, they are just greedy and because our government has removed nearly all types of regulation from business, they can just move there production to other countries and exploit cheep labor, avoid taxes and still sell products at prices nearly as expensive as if the work had been done in the US by US workers. And yet, the US gov continues to give government subsidies and tax breaks to mega corporations that don't need them.
A result of all of this is that most all products used in America today are made elsewhere. If the world were to cut us off, we would have to rebuild our infrastructure to keep consumers with products. We are not able to sustain ourselves by ourselves. Weâre the most technologically advanced nation on earth but we canât even build our own computers without parts from other countries. |
I agree with most of what your saying but would like to add two points.
1. Not all corporations are greedy in the manner that you might be implying. Yes, all corps want to make money, but many do a lot of good for the communities they reside in. Enron and Worldcom are the minority, not the norm. My corporation, for example, donates millions to local charities each year and employs about 100,000 people with very good jobs. Our country is truly a better place because of the company I work for.
2. Most jobs that get outsourced (note I did not say all!) are jobs that could be done by a moderatly trained monkey. If, outsourcing was not an option tomorrow, I would not worry too much as it would not take long to get things rolling again.
And something kind of funny, we outsource some stuff to South Korea. South Korea in turn, out sources to North Korea and the former Soviet Union because labor is even cheaper there but we don't have the balls to go there and deal with them.
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08/05/2005 11:07:33 PM · #41 |
Sounds like an edict from a dictator. I thought that free speech was guaranteed by the US Constitution and political dissent was one of the things that made America a great and strong country.
You don't have to serve in the military to make a big contribution towards this country. I serve my country every single day. No one is criticizing the military personnel who are in Iraq but rather the politicians and Bush administration for putting them in harms way for no better reason than for oil and geopolitical strategic plans.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree that the alliance forces have gotten rid of a lot of bad people, but rather, because of our invasion and occupation of Iraq, the Bush administration have created many more terrorists. I also never felt threatened by Iraq and not finding any WMDs or links with Al Qaeda proves this to be right. In fact, the Iraqi war diverted attention and resources away from Al Qaeda.
If it makes you sick of hearing about every one of our soldiers being killed, as it does me, then support their coming home.
Originally posted by Fetor:
well said todd. Those who complain about threads such as this, if you dont want to read it dont click on the thread. simple as that |
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08/05/2005 11:13:09 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by toddhead:
I have one simple question here. How many of you complaining here in this thread has spent a day in your life serving your country? I find it shameful that you will use the deaths of our service members to try and push your point across. They served their country with honor and dignity and you feel have the right to use there deaths to push you agenda? Stop, sit down and think about it. Think about those men and women who volunteered to serve their country. If you don't think going to Iraq and fighting for freedom isn't serving this country then you are foolish. They may not have found weapons of mass destruction over there, but they did get rid of a lot of people who would like nothing more than to kill every single one of us Americans and everyone else who doesn't agree with their beliefs. So, you can cry about oil and what not, but remember, these men and women died for their country because they felt it was their duty to protect YOU and your freedoms. Keep them out of your political rants unless you were over there with them. |
Todd, I think youâre are confusing complaints about the US government and military and its policies with complaints about the troops. Bad things happen when you put young kids into horrible and nightmarish situations. The troops didnât choose to go to Iraq. They were sent there by men who have never seen war, as you put it. |
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08/05/2005 11:32:23 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by louddog:
2. Most jobs that get outsourced (note I did not say all!) are jobs that could be done by a moderatly trained monkey. If, outsourcing was not an option tomorrow, I would not worry too much as it would not take long to get things rolling again.
And something kind of funny, we outsource some stuff to South Korea. South Korea in turn, out sources to North Korea and the former Soviet Union because labor is even cheaper there but we don't have the balls to go there and deal with them. |
Your trained monkey analogy is not accurate. I have been working in the technology industry for the last 6 years and I have seen jobs from web design to programmers to phone techs get moved overseas constantly. I have several friends with 4 year college degrees who can't find work. In the place I work now, I am the youngest in my department and almost all of my co-workers have taken this job as a downgrade in pay and benefits and position, as have I. There are many different sectors of work that has been mostly removed from the US, ones middle class families lived off of.
Again, not ALL corporations are doing these things. But itâs a very disturbing trend all the outsourcing thatâs happening now. And itâs not done because it has to be, itâs done to increase profit to ridiculous levels.
âWhy should I pay an American 60 thousand a year to use his 4 year degree in programming when I can hire a Malaysian for 20 thousand a year to do the same work?â
That is the mentality, no sense of morality or ethics or respect or âproudly made in the USAâ, just bigger profit motivations.
In todays America, there is almost no such thing as job security. Like many of my friends, you could spend years studying a particular subject just to end up having to take a menial job to scrape by and pay the bills while your college debts don't get paid. |
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08/06/2005 12:55:21 AM · #44 |
| I wonder how many Indian, Hungarian, etc. IT workers post their political agenda to internet forums on their employer's time using their employer's resources? |
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08/14/2005 05:56:01 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Sounds like an edict from a dictator. I thought that free speech was guaranteed by the US Constitution and political dissent was one of the things that made America a great and strong country.
You don't have to serve in the military to make a big contribution towards this country. I serve my country every single day. No one is criticizing the military personnel who are in Iraq but rather the politicians and Bush administration for putting them in harms way for no better reason than for oil and geopolitical strategic plans.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree that the alliance forces have gotten rid of a lot of bad people, but rather, because of our invasion and occupation of Iraq, the Bush administration have created many more terrorists. I also never felt threatened by Iraq and not finding any WMDs or links with Al Qaeda proves this to be right. In fact, the Iraqi war diverted attention and resources away from Al Qaeda.
If it makes you sick of hearing about every one of our soldiers being killed, as it does me, then support their coming home.
Originally posted by Fetor:
well said todd. Those who complain about threads such as this, if you dont want to read it dont click on the thread. simple as that |
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I agree that political dissent made the United States such a strong country, but leaving it at that seems a bit short sighted. Political dissent only works when it actually makes a difference in governmental policy. Do you REALLY think that outside pressure is going to cause President Bush to wake up one day and decide to retreat troops from Iraq? um NO. And besides, no one is limiting your right to free speech. I have no idea how that relates to not clicking on this thread. GO AHEAD AND CLICK IT IF YOU WANT. Fetor says that IF you DON'T want to read it then don't. I see no problem there. Seems like perfect logic to me.
Also, I agree that free speech is guaranteed, but only to a point. For example, you can't falsely advertise, and perjury is definitely a no-no. In saying that we're at war for the oil, you're actually committing libel against the President by making circumstantial assumptions on the motives of his actions. In other words, you're blaming him simply because of the presence of oil in Iraq. Maybe you're right. Maybe the US is in there for the oil. We don't know. But that's the whole point. Here in the US, we're innocent until proven guilty. President Bush has not been PROVEN guilty of "blood-for-oil", so he is not to be prematurely proclaimed guilty of doing that. It's almost as bad as me accusing you of libeling Bush because the Democrats bribed you to do so on this photography site forum. -_-
Anyway, I have to go copy some photos onto my computer now so... yeah. Don't take any of this TOO personally; I'm just using my guaranteed right to free speech like you said. ;) |
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08/14/2005 06:16:54 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by PhotoRyno:
Civilians THERE are not targets but casualties |
Your assumptions are wrong... perhaps the coalitions forces don't target them.... but believe me.... they are very much a target.
Ray |
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08/14/2005 06:55:44 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by toddhead:
How many of you complaining here in this thread has spent a day in your life serving your country? |
Tap the brakes dude. I have spent 7 years of my life in service to this country as a commissioned officer in the United Stated Navy... so I guess that gives me some additional "rights" in your eyes.
So... Here is my read on the Iraq situation.
1) We had bad intel. period. paragraph.
2) We acted on that bad intel.
Was Bush looking for a reason to get rid of Saddam... YES IMHO.
Easy answer for W. WMD ... lets go kick some ass
Now that the "Mission has been accomplished" we need to do 2 things
1) Clean up the frigging mess we made(let our military do their jobs - give em the resources and the lattitude to do what needs to be done)
2) get the hell out of IRAQ post haste
As it stands we are making the results of bad planning...bad exeucution and bad judgement (on the part of Bush) worse and getting a lot more killed by not bringing the full power of the Armed Forces down on this "insurection".
My read is simply "get er done" and get the hell out
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08/14/2005 08:35:56 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by louddog:
2. Most jobs that get outsourced (note I did not say all!) are jobs that could be done by a moderatly trained monkey. If, outsourcing was not an option tomorrow, I would not worry too much as it would not take long to get things rolling again.
And something kind of funny, we outsource some stuff to South Korea. South Korea in turn, out sources to North Korea and the former Soviet Union because labor is even cheaper there but we don't have the balls to go there and deal with them. |
Your trained monkey analogy is not accurate. I have been working in the technology industry for the last 6 years and I have seen jobs from web design to programmers to phone techs get moved overseas constantly. I have several friends with 4 year college degrees who can't find work. In the place I work now, I am the youngest in my department and almost all of my co-workers have taken this job as a downgrade in pay and benefits and position, as have I. There are many different sectors of work that has been mostly removed from the US, ones middle class families lived off of.
Again, not ALL corporations are doing these things. But itâs a very disturbing trend all the outsourcing thatâs happening now. And itâs not done because it has to be, itâs done to increase profit to ridiculous levels.
âWhy should I pay an American 60 thousand a year to use his 4 year degree in programming when I can hire a Malaysian for 20 thousand a year to do the same work?â
That is the mentality, no sense of morality or ethics or respect or âproudly made in the USAâ, just bigger profit motivations.
In todays America, there is almost no such thing as job security. Like many of my friends, you could spend years studying a particular subject just to end up having to take a menial job to scrape by and pay the bills while your college debts don't get paid. |
I assure you, most of the jobs outsourced by GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nike and clothing manufacturers are not high paid programmers. Most of the people working in sweat shops in Mexico and the Phillipines are not assembling the space shuttle's replacement. MOST (as I stated) outsourced jobs are simple low paying jobs that most people in the US would not want to do and could not support a family doing.
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08/14/2005 09:05:54 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by louddog:
Most jobs that get outsourced (note I did not say all!) are jobs that could be done by a moderatly trained monkey ...
MOST (as I stated) outsourced jobs are simple low paying jobs that most people in the US would not want to do and could not support a family doing. |
1. I personally find it distasteful that the phrase "moderately trained monkey" was used.
2. Your missing the point. The jobs you're talking about, if they were to be performed within the boundaries of the US by US citizens, would cost the companies much more money and slash their profits. This is why outsourcing happens. It matters not that the jobs are low-skill activities.
Companies running factories, businesses, etc in the US have to abide by US laws and regulations, which aim to ensure good working conditions, acceptable and standardized working hours, a standard of wages, benefits, etc.
By outsourcing, US companies MAY do away with those things. They don't have to pay large salaries, they don't have to deal with benefits for workers, and working conditions can be questionable.
Basically, US firms can't treat its workers like slaves anymore within their own country, so they go abroad to do it.
PS Yes, I guess this also qualifies under "spreading FREEDOM" around the world, particularly to its non-American "moderately trained monkeys."
Message edited by author 2005-08-14 21:08:23.
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