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07/19/2005 09:47:48 AM · #26 |
when you look at the top 10 highest rated photos on DPC you find out real fast that there are more NON-dslrs that are there and besides if you do a non-dslr challenge, you have to face up to Amazing photographs that are in the top 10 highest rated photos...
3 of them are lens changeable dslrs, 5 are Sonys |
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07/19/2005 09:52:31 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by dagaleaa:
Only feature 0 to 2.4 megapixels in one challenge, and then 2.4 to 4 megapixels and so on or whatever the megapixel numbers could be. |
I hope my 4.06 megapixel EOS 1D is counted in the 2.4 - 4 MP category..
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07/19/2005 10:00:18 AM · #28 |
It's a cliche, but photography is about the person holding the camera, not the camera they're holding. Look at the following camera "profiles:"
Powershot G2
Powershot A70
Powershot G3
Powershot G5
Coolpix 5700
Coolpix 995
Coolpix 4500
Coolpix 4300
There are dozens more, these are just the most-owned P&S cameras on the site.
As the owner of a very nice consumer dSLR, I can attest that its "technical superiority" gives me no advantage when I'm trying to think of a killer challenge shot, or out scoping for a great pic. |
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07/19/2005 10:22:04 AM · #29 |
I believe that successful photography is a product of the photographer and his familiarity with whatever camera he has. When I first got a Digital Rebel, I hated it because I could get much better results from my old Powershot G2. That's the camera I was used to, and I knew what it was capable of and how to get the most out of it (I actually returned the Rebel to the store). Eventually I got another Rebel and grew more comfortable with it. Within a year, I had a hard time getting a decent shot from the G2.
BradP is an excellent case study. He worked wonders with an Olympus E-10 that was well below the capabilities of even the cheapest DSLR. When he switched to an Olympus D-600, his results suffered- NOT because he's a bad photographer nor because of the camera's limitations (Joey Lawrence has the same model), but because he's not familiar with it... yet. If Brad shoots at his usual rate and enthusiasm level, he'll be back to hogging ribbons right and left in another month or two. Likewise, if Joey Lawrence bought a Canon 20D tomorrow, I'm betting that it would take him a while to get the results he was used to with his lowly Olympus.
The lesson here is to shoot like crazy with whatever camera you have and learn it inside and out. Only with total familiarity can you use any camera to its full potential. Most of us only scratch the surface of our camera's capabilities. When you can change most of your camera's settings without looking at it to achieve a desired result, THEN you're probably reached the level where you can make a fair assessment of whether you need to upgrade.
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07/19/2005 10:31:02 AM · #30 |
Everyone look at THIS Member's Profile and weep...NO D-SLR's here...
Message edited by author 2005-07-19 10:31:55. |
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07/19/2005 10:37:05 AM · #31 |
Sheesh, that's a lotta scrolling to get past the line of ribbons... |
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07/19/2005 10:42:24 AM · #32 |
JJ can win with any camera and Tiger Woods could play golf with a broomstick, but they're not human so it doesn't count. ;-P
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07/19/2005 10:56:55 AM · #33 |
Death to all the SLR owners, death, death ,death, I say!!!
This is a call to arms for all P&S users. Band together brothers! We shall overcome! Let's meet in the alley outside the cafeteria and come up with a plan for our world dominance!!!
-edit:
Here's an idea on haw we can begin. Whenever you see someone with an SLR camera, run up to him/her, lick your finger, smudge their lens, and run, run, run like the wind!!!
:-P
Message edited by author 2005-07-19 10:58:42.
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07/19/2005 10:59:26 AM · #34 |
Scalvert is right.
I was playing with my neighbor's NikonD70 and I didn't take reasonably good pictures at all because I didn't know how to work it. I just played around with long exposures and made myself have two faces because that's something I can't do with the old Olympus. Not that big of a deal. This is because it was new to me and I had never even had an SLR in my hands before. I'm sure if I practised with it for a few weeks, I'd get the hang of it and could take better quality pictures, but the base is the same.
You have to just know the limits of what you are working with, and go with it. Once you understand what your camera can and can't do, you know what you are able to create and have to manage inside the boundarys.
If there were challenges for me to enter where only non-SLR users were allowed, like you suggested, I wouldn't have learned or improved. The first image I saw on this site was Eric Limon's Secret Garden. I was amazed by the shot and joined the site immediatly, wanting to learn how to take pictures like that. It didn't even occur to me at that time I had 'one of the worst cameras'... I just wanted to learn. Take a gander at my first challenge entries compared to my newer ones. There's still holes but you can see that I've improved.
Keep entering challenges with your camera and see what happens. When your ready and have the money, ect. you should upgrade. |
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07/19/2005 11:04:35 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by ladymonarda:
Well, could you say if I should give up? Is my eye blind? Are my images anything at all, or are they truly part of those inferior photo buffs who will produce inferior images even with the best equipment. You can e mail me privately. I will take your extreme criticism as to whether I really don't have the eye.
A lesser photographer who doesn't understand camera techniques will still produce inferior images even with the best equipement. |
[/quote]
It can take years for someone to become better at taking photos. Look at some of the looooong standing members on DPC and you will see a significant change in the quality of their shots.
I am not a great example, but if you look through my portfolio, you will see some difference between my earlier shots and my more recent shots. (I need to get into more challenges...)
If you had access to my archive at home, you would see a more clear difference between Day One and Day One Year Plus a few days. (Which is now.)
There is a few DPC members who are big time ribbon winners, who at one time entered shots that look much worse then my four challenge entries. They improved so much in two or three years that I hope that I will be as good as that in a few years. |
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07/19/2005 11:08:10 AM · #36 |
lol glad we picked out the same photographer :) Jean-Jacques Béguin does awesome things with a Non-dslr!!
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07/19/2005 11:21:10 AM · #37 |
JJ has a brown ribbon Photo too, with a whopping 3.605. Probably the BEST and MOST subtle and clever photo in DPC history to win last place...
Message edited by author 2005-07-19 11:21:59. |
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07/19/2005 11:27:37 AM · #38 |
LOL!!
I agree totally!
Originally posted by doctornick:
JJ has a brown ribbon Photo too, with a whopping 3.605. Probably the BEST and MOST subtle and clever photo in DPC history to win last place...
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07/19/2005 11:33:10 AM · #39 |
As one who's just entered the dSLR ranks (loaner 300D while waiting for my 20D, should be here Thursday) I'd like to emphatically state the following:
I did not just spend $3,500.00 because I think the dSLR is necessary to shoot challenge-winning images at DPC.
Far from it. As far as lo-res, 640-pixel images go, there's very little difference in what you can produce between, say, 3 Mp and 8 Mp. And, as has been pointed out, familiarity with equipment will trump Mp every time.
So why did I make the shift? There are a number of reasons:
1. I'm by nature a wide-angle guy, used to working with extreme wide angle in architectural and landscape subjects, and my 5700 Nikon didn't go wider than about the equivalent of a 35mm lens on a 35mm film camera. My Canon has the equivalent of 16-35 or so with its 10-22 zoom. Also, the 5700 shows noticeable barrel distortion at its widest setting and the 10-22 has NONE. Nada. Zilch.
2. My other passion is true macro/tight closeup photography, and the 5700 is deficient in that area as well. In particular, its manual "focus by wire" feature is essentially useless. I have NEVER taken a macro shot with the 5700 that wowed me. My 3.2 Mp Fuji 4900z did a better job, actually, and its manual focus was at least somewhat useful.
3. When working with longer focal lengths, I'm used to having precise control of my DOF. The tiny sensors of the prosumer cams translate into too MUCH DOF for me. This has been a constant irritant, requiring me to do selection and blurring in PS to get the results I wanted.
5. NOISE... I hate the noise the 5700 has in its darker areas, especially at any ISO Over 100.
6. LAG... The lag is infuriating; there is a noticeable pause between pushing the trigger and capturing the image. I can't photograph a moving object with any precision with my 5700. The problem is only exacerbated by the electronic viewfinder, which lags behind the action as it refreshes. Plus, it's like 2-3 seconds between when I turn the camera on and the lens extends and its ready to shoot.
7. PRINT QUALITY... I have come to a point where I can't stand the image quality the 5700 produces at print sizes of 11x14 and above. I sell prints as big as 16x20 and, while they seem to be acceptable to many people, I can't get the luminosity I want out of them. My first prints with the 300D are blowing me away. I stare at them and giggle. And there are some galleries interested in my work, but they have aske me to come back when I can produce a crisper, more luminous image. The eye is there, in other words, but the images lag behind the eye at large print size; this has nothing to do with DPC.
As an example of WA architecture capability, consider the following shot:
While this is not an extreme WA as presented (approx between 28 and 35mm in film equivalent), it illustrates an interesting point: I could NOT have taken this picture with the 5700 and kept the verticals and horizontals squared up: it's maybe a 65% CROP from a 10mm shot, with excess area cut out on left and in foreground. I am able to square my camera to the subject and not cut it off at the top (or have too little sky for comfort).
So, in summary, I got the dSLR because, as an experienced photographer, I realized that my 5700 was limiting me, keeping me from "covering" the area I wanted to cover, primarily. This is the only way in which it is going to have a really significant effect on my DPC experience; it's gonna let me go WIDE. And,a ctually, I don't expect this will result in a rash of ribbons; true WA work doesn't seem to go well in here...
Sorry for the ramble...
Robt.
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07/19/2005 12:10:21 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by ladymonarda:
Just wondering if the dp challenge could run a challenge or two for non digital slr users. |
With this part of your premise I dissagree.
Originally posted by ladymonarda:
I have seen, obviously, that Canon EOS Digital Rebel Slrs usually are the ones who command the entire board when it comes to pictures. We know these camers take overall better pictures, but it leaves the rest of us in the dust. Anybody else agree, disagree? |
With this part of your premise, I both disagree and agree... The camera has the capability to capture an image. Usually the more expensive the camera is, the higher quality the image that it will capture. However, a high quality image that is out of focus is still out of focus. A high quality image that is cluttered with un-needed elements is still cluttered. A high quality image that is too dark, is still too dark. Ad nauseum...
Your camera is a very capable camera when used properly and when used within it's capablities. I KNOW it is! How do I know this? It's because I used to use an Olympus D-550Z! Those are my images on the camera page. Nice aren't they? Well they didn't start out like that. (Heesh, I can't believe I'm about to do this...) They started out more like this:
 
 
How did I get from the beginning to the shots on the camera page? I practiced, lot's and lot's of practice. I also spent hours on end looking at others works and COMMENTING COMMENTING COMMENTING. This commenting was as much as important as anytime that I pushed the shutter button because it made me see what made a good photograph!
Then I bought the camera that you mention in your original post, the Canon D-Rebel. Why did I buy it? Because I thought that I had taken the Oly as far as it could go. I believed the same that you appear to believe now. That most of it was in the camera. Well guess what happened to my images...
 
 
If you look at my profile, all the top challenge images are from the Oly accept my one and only ribbon. My average score here with my Oly is way better than my average score with my Canon. Why? Because I wasn't familiar with the new camera. I didn't know how to use the controls. I had to totally relearn the process of taking a picture. I was so caught up in this learning curve that I forgot all that I had learned about the basics of composition...
So yeah, I agree with you that you can take higher quality images with a better camera, but it's the photographer and not the camera that takes great photographs. My advice to you. Suck up photography like a sponge. Comment on any photo here that moves you. Comment on what you like about it. Comment on what you don't like about it. The negative that you comment on is more important than the positive. Why does it detract from the image? Why is commenting so important IMHO? Because every comment you make you are training your brain to understand what makes a good photograph or a not so good one. Pretty soon you will be bumping my shots off the D-550z camera page! I know. I've seen it happen. Ask AmiYuy.
Edited for grammar and also to add: Oh, if you don't have one now, get a tripod and when ever possible, use the timer rather than pushing the shutter button yourself. My images improved by leaps and bounds when I started using the tripod. Your camera will produce some nice sharp images if you stabilize it properly. You will also be able to take shots in darker light if it is on a tripod. And NEVER use the flash. The flash on that Oly sucks and the images taken with it's flash on suck too. And learn how to use levels and curves in photoshop or whatever software you use. That cameras color is quite flat, but the data is there and can be pulled out with simple levels adjustments. If you need any words of advice, just PM me!
Message edited by author 2005-07-19 14:55:20. |
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07/19/2005 12:56:32 PM · #41 |
An issue I did not notice being discussed here is the image one sees through the viewfinder. With my own camera I can only tell whether I have approximately framed the subject correctly. And whether the lighting is within a long stone's throw of being correct. I cannot determine whether the focus is sharp or whether one might be able to see details in the dark areas or textures in the highlights. I get a really tiny fraction of the information I need to be able to determine whether the shot is technically acceptable. And I find that when I push the limits even a bit, the number of shots that come out sharp and perfectly exposed is small compared to what I believe it might be if I could actually see something through the viewfinder.
That said, I realize that I view the world differently than do most photographers at this site, so if I were to swap cameras for a year with the guy who has the best SLR at this site, I'd probably not add two tenths of a point to my average.
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07/19/2005 02:42:35 PM · #42 |
One of the people who I consider to be among the very best photogs dpc has to offer, indigo997, won all of her 5 ribbons with a G2 before getting a DSLR.
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07/19/2005 06:40:25 PM · #43 |
I haven't read the entire thread and don't know if anyone has pointed this out or not - but the top 5 cameras here (by ownership) are all dSLRs. Anybody who has taken a statistics class (or anyone who sits and thinks for a couple seconds) should be able to figure out that the # of ribbons, in theory, should be higher for 300D owners than any other camera considering the # of owners with respect to any other individual camera. I'm not saying that dSLR owners don't have a disproportionate number of wins, cuz I haven't sat down and figured out the numbers. But, this is one reason (among others, which I certainly won't deny - but generally dependent upon the photographer themself) that you may see dSLR owners winning more ribbons.
Perhaps it's just that people who own dSLRs take their photography more seriously, on the whole (since it's obviously not always the case), than others.
edited to add the relevant link:
//dpchallenge.com/camera.php?action=browse&view=owners
and I could go buy a $500 surf board right now if I wanted to - but that wouldn't make me a better surfer (or would it? maybe I should test this theory..)
Message edited by author 2005-07-19 18:45:21.
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07/19/2005 06:47:18 PM · #44 |
You've only entered eight challenges - I suggest that if you really want to improve your photography, you keep on trying and stay open to learning. "Learning to See Creatively" and "Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson are two books that I always recommend to anybody who wishes to learn a bit more about photography. Take a look at the first challenge score thread and realize that many of the 'DPC greats' did not start off all that great.
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07/19/2005 08:23:33 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by brianlh:
Anybody who has taken a statistics class (or anyone who sits and thinks for a couple seconds) should be able to figure out that the # of ribbons, in theory, should be higher for 300D owners than any other camera considering the # of owners with respect to any other individual camera. |
I did take courses in stats. Your "theory" assumes too many factors to be static that are indeed variable. The number of owners of the various cameras is constantly changing during the time period when ribbons were awarded; and many of the ribbons were awarded before there was such a thing as a 300D.
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07/20/2005 03:30:00 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by brianlh:
Anybody who has taken a statistics class (or anyone who sits and thinks for a couple seconds) should be able to figure out that the # of ribbons, in theory, should be higher for 300D owners than any other camera considering the # of owners with respect to any other individual camera. |
I did take courses in stats. Your "theory" assumes too many factors to be static that are indeed variable. The number of owners of the various cameras is constantly changing during the time period when ribbons were awarded; and many of the ribbons were awarded before there was such a thing as a 300D. |
Doh - I had a feeling I would overlook something. But, since we're talking about this past challenge, isn't that sort of like point prevalence? I guess my mindset was more in the context of the past series of challenges rather than the entire course of DPC.
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11/04/2005 10:07:12 AM · #47 |
Would be cool if someone took the effort to compile a table of ribbons-per-week average for each (popular) camera in the dpc database, that would give us a much clearer idea.
However, a lot of non-ribbon shots outscore a lot of ribbon shots as well... maybe a better statistic to look at is just the top score for each camera. I know there's already a list sorted by average score, but average seems a little misleading as many crap entries for popular or inexpensive cameras will water down the apparent er, capability, of the cameras as demonstrated by the best scorers.
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11/04/2005 10:11:08 AM · #48 |
Hey I don't have a dSLR camera- yet lol. But I have learned a LOT with my lil p&s and it's not a fancy one either. I haven't one anything nor have I scored high, but I've learned some great lessons from people here and it giving me the tools I will need when I do get my new camear week after next.
I'm finding it's not the camera like others have said, it's me and how i use it. I'm learning new ways to focus on things ect. |
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